Makkah and the hajj in the 1880's, photos of pilgrims from across the world

[al-Hasani]

And thats what im judging, they shouldnt destroy historic sites, a hotel can be built everywhere but these historic sites are gone forever.



Rebuilding what? Whats so historic about these rebuilded sites then?

I have read that also many saudis are againt the destruction of history, they know what the price is, someday KSA will not have any historic buildings left if they continue like that, and then whats left are billion dolar buildings far away from the aesthetics of the old ones.

I just think that the saudi goverment is destroying invaluable history.

Anyways, lets agree on disagree.

Historical sites come and go. A 230 year old fortress does not really have a lot of historical value in the wider picture and no Islamic one. That fortress could not have remained there since Makkah is expanding and all those old areas, some in a poor state, will be gone in order to do that. There is no other solution. Please look at the link I gave you. It explains the situation.

Many historical sites have been rebuilt or built upon earlier historical sites whose traces are nearly gone across the world.

There are hundreds if not thousands of historical sites in KSA so such a aim would nearly be impossible. Whole provinces, villages etc. should have been ordered for destruction in order for that to be the case.

Serving the Muslim pilgrims and their needs will always rank higher than buildings. Makkah is not a museum city but a vibrant city with a population that exceeds 2 million.

Anyway as I wrote before then the discussion should be taken in another thread. You are welcome to dig up that old thread and we can discuss it there instead.

 

[xenon54 out]

Makkah is not a museum city but a vibrant city with a population that exceeds 2 million.

Well, Istanbul is a vibrant city with 15 million people and a really bad traffic issue, but they extended the construction of Marmaray Project (which has a existantial importance for Istanbul) for 5 more years than planned because they found historic artifacts.

Marmaray - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But like i said it, lets drop the discussion.

 

[al-Hasani]

Makkah

 

[Arabian Legend]

Saudi Arabia will take whatever measures necessary to insure comfort and tranquility for pilgrims. More accommodation places and more expansions are needed due to the high numbers of pilgrims. The two holy sites are not tourist sites or attraction but for the fulfillment of religious obligation. Those who don't agreed with what KSA is doing can go fly a kite.

 

[al-Hasani]

Makkah

















Madinah

 

[xenon54 out]

Makkah

@al-Hasani

Do you have any Information about this? Since it looks like a Ottoman miniature.

Ottoman miniature - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[KingMamba]

@al-Hasani most pilgrims cannot afford $290 a night for rooms in that hotel. That is the cheapest price too and it is current price I can only imagine it would be much more expensive during hajj season...

 

[al-Hasani]

@xenon54

No information other than the Arabic writing. Could also look like a Maqama since there are hundreds of them with Kaaba included as a illustration.

Maqama - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A introduction to the medieval Arab literary genre Maqama (illustrations) | Pakistan Defence

@KingMamba

You asked for the prize and I gave you a link. I never said that every pilgrim can afford it but it was totally booked/sold out this year for hajj at least.

 

[xenon54 out]

@xenon54

No information other than the Arabic writing. Could also look like a Maqama since there are hundreds of them with Kaaba included as a illustration.

Maqama - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A introduction to the medieval Arab literary genre Maqama (illustrations) | Pakistan Defence

Hmm interesting, i didnt know there are Arabic paintings of humans, since its forbidden in Islam.

But you can clearly see the similaritys between Ottoman, Arabic and Persian paintings.

 

[al-Hasani]

Hmm interesting, i didnt know there are Arabic paintings of humans, since its forbidden in Islam.

But you can clearly see the similaritys between Ottoman, Arabic and Persian paintings.

It was forbidden to draw Prophet Muhammad (saws) and his face and that is still the case. Otherwise Arab illustrations have always been rich. For instance the Maqama predate the Persian miniatures which influenced the Ottoman miniatures and the Mughal miniatures.

But you are right. They are somewhat similar. All very beautiful.

Chinese have similar ones I believe. Anyway let us stick to the topic. I would appreciate that.

 

[xenon54 out]

It was forbidden to draw Prophet Muhammad (saws) and his face and that is still the case. Otherwise Arab illustrations have always been rich. For instance the Maqama predate the Persian miniatures which influenced the Ottoman miniatures and the Mughal miniatures.

But you are right. They are somewhat similar. All very beautiful.

Chinese have similar ones I believe. Anyway let us stick to the topic. I would appreciate that.

Hmm, isnt drawing of human face forbidden?
I could swear they teached us in mosque that its forbidden when i was a kid.

Sry for offtopic post but its interesting.

 

[al-Hasani]

Hmm, isnt drawing of human face forbidden?
I could swear they teached us in mosque that its forbidden when i was a kid.

Sry for offtopic post but its interesting.

Clearly this was not followed at least. But I do believe that there are different rulings on that depending on which madhhab you adhere to.

Those guys clearly thought that it was not forbidden:

A introduction to the medieval Arab literary genre Maqama (illustrations) | Pakistan Defence

​

 

[blain2]

Saudi Arabia will take whatever measures necessary to insure comfort and tranquility for pilgrims. More accommodation places and more expansions are needed due to the high numbers of pilgrims. The two holy sites are not tourist sites or attraction but for the fulfillment of religious obligation. Those who don't agreed with what KSA is doing can go fly a kite.

I happened to have a discussion with one of the Muezzins of the Haram (Kabaa) last year. He was a well educated young chap in his 30s with an engineering degree from a University in America. I asked him a similar question as to why the accommodations and infrastructure are always playing catchup for the Hajjis. His answer was that the Saudis have the most complex traffic engineering problem to solve in the world. He gave me examples of the Tableeghi ijtima in BD and the gathering in India (Varanasai, I believe or maybe I am wrong) where a few million people get together and both of which are very large gatherings. However the difference in Saudi Arabia is that not only do they have 3 million plus people showing up, but this entire body does not stay in one place, rather it moves around five different locations and that too for only a week but at all times during the week. For this, they are constantly having to figure out what the road capacity should be, how much accommodation they need to have in place, what the transportation fleet needs to look like etc. So a very complex problem to solve. He mentioned that they do a lot of computer based simulation/modeling of the ingress/egress of the hujjaj to come up with optimal solutions. All in all, a very engaging and informative discussion for a generalist like me but it did make me aware of the challenges that the Saudis face.

 

[Basel]

Thank you for posting such historical pics of our holy places.

 

[al-Hasani]

I happened to have a discussion with one of the Muezzins of the Haram (Kabaa) last year. He was a well educated young chap in his 30s with an engineering degree from a University in America. I asked him a similar question as to why the accommodations and infrastructure are always playing catchup for the Hajjis. His answer was that the Saudis have the most complex traffic engineering problem to solve in the world. He gave me examples of the Tableeghi ijtima in BD and the gathering in India (Varanasai, I believe or maybe I am wrong) where a few million people get together and both of which are very large gatherings. However the difference in Saudi Arabia is that not only do they have 3 million plus people showing up, but this entire body does not stay in one place, rather it moves around five different locations and that too for only a week but at all times during the week. For this, they are constantly having to figure out what the road capacity should be, how much accommodation they need to have in place, what the transportation fleet needs to look like etc. So a very complex problem to solve. He mentioned that they do a lot of computer based simulation/modeling of the ingress/egress of the hujjaj to come up with optimal solutions. All in all, a very engaging and informative discussion for a generalist like me but it did make me aware of the challenges that the Saudis face.

Not only this my friend but in general the areas around Makkah and Hijaz are posing great difficulties for engineers due to its mountainous character and rocky surface. Makkah is located on several hills/mountains for instance.

The capacity for Al-Masjid Al-Haram will rise to 2 millions (!) for instance.

The "problem" is also that the amount of pilgrims is rising rapidly for each year. When the expansion projects is completed by 2020 the number of pilgrims are expected to reach 6 million or so if I remember correctly. I mean that is a huge, huge amount and it will only grow from there on.

@Basel You are very welcome dear.