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Majority of Finns Support Swedish Military Alliance

USAHawk785

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HELSINKI — Nearly 54 percent of Finns would support a formal, treaty-centered, bilateral military alliance with Sweden, according to an opinion poll conducted March 17-20 by the Helsinki-based research organization Taloustutkimus for the Finnish public broadcasting corporation YLE.

By contrast, 36 percent of those surveyed opposed such a pact.

The poll reveals that a Finnish-Swedish relationship aimed at creating common defense systems, including joint deployments, is preferred over NATO membership by Finland. Latest polls show that less than 25 percent of Finns support either joining the Western alliance or participating in the so-called European Union Common Defense project.

The poll provides a useful barometer of the Finnish mood in the aftermath of Russia’s annexation of Crimea and the related surge in military exercises, together with large-scale armored troop movements, by Russian forces along the country’s 800 mile eastern border with Russia.

“The results of the poll are interesting. We already cooperate with Sweden’s armed forces on various military fronts, but there is nothing formal in our relationship. We have, so far, not discussed a treaty-based military alliance. While one should not rule out the option of entering a military alliance, we are not at this point, at present,” said Carl Haglund, Finland’s defense minister.

The poll does reveal strong cross-party support for a bilateral Finnish-Swedish defense alliance, with the Christian Democrats emerging as the only political group in the eight party Finnish national parliament to oppose such a collaboration.

According to a poll conducted Jan. 12 by the Swedish Civil Contingencies Agency, Swedish support for NATO membership has risen from 30 to 36 percent year-on-year; 40 percent of Swedes oppose NATO membership while 24 percent are undecided.

Russia’s defense strengthening in the High North, combined with a more aggressive and expansionist Kremlin, has rekindled debate in Finland and Sweden over the sustainability of their separate positions on non-alignment and remaining outside NATO.

Defense leaders in both countries have been playing down the “Russian threat” while talking up cross-border cooperation in recent days. The restated positions of both governments is to retain NATO membership as a “viable future option,” Finnish Prime Minister Jyrki Katainen told parliament on March 20.

“It is healthy for democracy that we should debate our neutrality and future defense options. That said, I do not believe that Russia poses a threat to Finland. We have a different history to countries in Eastern Europe that were conquered and occupied. Russia would not dare come here. It would get a bloody nose, and it knows that,” said retired Gen. Gustav Hägglund, the commander of Finland’s armed forces from 1994-2001.

Conceding that the activity of Russian forces had increased close to the borders of Finland and Norway, Sweden’s defense commander, Gen. Sverker Göransson, ruled out the immediate possibility of an attack by Russia on the NATO-aligned Baltic states.

While the possibility of such an attack could not be fully ruled-out, against the backdrop of Russian aggression in the Ukraine, Göransson pointed to what he called the “huge differences” between the Baltic NATO states and Ukraine.

“Although Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia have land borders with Russia, they are so integrated with NATO and the European Union that Russia’s leaders will, in the short term, not dare attack,” said Göransson.

Sweden and Finland have responded to increased activity by Russian forces along the eastern border and in the Baltic Sea by increasing radar surveillance and deploying more aircraft to monitor force movements.

Finland is particularly keen to track Russian military exercises on the Karelian Isthmus. The Finnish Air Force has moved more F-18 Hornets to air bases along the border, while radar stations are also on high alert.
 
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An alliance between Sweden and Finland is not on the agenda in Sweden, that's for sure.
Nordic cooperation is always on the agenda.

All the important political parties agree that strategic decisions like N.A.T.O membership
must have a qualified majority, so we need about 70% for the membership,
before this would happen. Two parties out of seven in the parlament are pro-N.A.T.O,
but they are not actively pursuing membership in any election for the last 40 years,
so it is really a non-issue at the moment.

Meanwhile Sweden is coperaintg with N.A.T.O. in the "Partnership for Peace" program,
and the latest Gripen (C/D) was made compatible with NATO.
Royal Swedish Air Force Gripens was used in a reconnaissance role in
the Libyan campaign, and IIRC under NATO command.
 
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Thanks for your input, @A.P. Richelieu. Currently, there is the Nordic Battle Group, which is composed of soldiers from Finland, Sweden, Norway with some contributions from Estonia and Ireland. The NBG is composed of roughly around 3,000 soldiers. As a rapid force, perhaps with recent developments and the current situation with Russia -- this can be used as premise to not only increase defense spending for Sweden, but facilitate new talks of including Finland into NATO.
 
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History tells us that the only country to beware of is Denmark, :-)
Except for some minor Russian incursions, this is the only country ever to
invade Sweden (not counting Finland which used to be part of Sweden).

Sweden has invaded Russia and captured Moscow once (1610), and that resulted in the first Romanov Tsar.
When the Poles, Danes and Russians attacked Sweden in the Great Nordic War, they were initially defeated,
but the invasion of Russia ending in the Battle of Poltava was to be a role model for later French and German
copycats.

Now we prefer doing our battles in the icehockeyrink (and Danes suck at icehockey):nhl_checking::nhl_checking::nhl_checking::nhl_checking:
 
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Every Dane I know, still has a problem with Sweden, I never understood why!

History tells us that the only country to beware of is Denmark, :-)
Except for some minor Russian incursions, this is the only country ever to
invade Sweden (not counting Finland which used to be part of Sweden).

Sweden has invaded Russia and captured Moscow once (1610), and that resulted in the first Romanov Tsar.
When the Poles, Danes and Russians attacked Sweden in the Great Nordic War, they were initially defeated,
but the invasion of Russia ending in the Battle of Poltava was to be a role model for later French and German
copycats.

Now we prefer doing our battles in the icehockeyrink (and Danes suck at icehockey):nhl_checking::nhl_checking::nhl_checking::nhl_checking:
 
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Every Dane I know, still has a problem with Sweden, I never understood why!

I presume thats because they lost a large chunk of their lands to the Swedes several centuries ago. Sweden gradually became the most dominant country in Scandinavia after the treaty of Roskilde.(Treaty of Roskilde - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Scandinavia1219.png


to this day however, the dialect of swedish spoken in skane (the southernmost province of sweden) is very similar to danish.
 
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History tells us that the only country to beware of is Denmark, :-)
Except for some minor Russian incursions, this is the only country ever to
invade Sweden (not counting Finland which used to be part of Sweden).

Sweden has invaded Russia and captured Moscow once (1610), and that resulted in the first Romanov Tsar.
When the Poles, Danes and Russians attacked Sweden in the Great Nordic War, they were initially defeated,
but the invasion of Russia ending in the Battle of Poltava was to be a role model for later French and German
copycats.

Now we prefer doing our battles in the icehockeyrink (and Danes suck at icehockey):nhl_checking::nhl_checking::nhl_checking::nhl_checking:

Sweden never captured Moscow. The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth did which was effectively ruled by Poland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Muscovite_War_(1605–18)
 
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Every Dane I know, still has a problem with Sweden, I never understood why!

There was a "union" between Sweden, Denmark, and Norway with Danish King or Queen.
This ended in 1523, when Sweden declared independency.
Been multiple wars between the countries.

They lost a major war 350 years ago and had to give up what is now southern Sweden.
The locals were still pro-Denmark, until Denmark tried to take it back some years later.
The Danish Army treated the farmers so bad, that they switched side permanently.

Sweden has funny relations also with Norway and Finland.
Finland used to be an integral part of Sweden, but the Finns were farmers/soldiers
and the Swedes were the nobility. Russia invaded during the Napoleonic wars
and Finland was a Dukedom of Russia afterwards until the Russian revolution,
when Finland managed to extricate itself, after a civil war.
Finns have a clear inferiority complex which they need to work on.
The worst day in modern Finnish history is not when Russia invaded Finland
in the beginning of WW II. It is the day when the Finnish icehockey team
finally, after trying for 40 years, is on the verge of a major win vs Sweden.
in the beginning of the third and last period, they lead with 5-1, but eventually lose 5-6.

Norwegians also has an inferiority complex vs Swedes, but with the recent successes
in winter-sports, this also has a touch of megalomania.

Danes have no inferiority complex vs Swedes, but they still have a lurking feeling
that Swedes see them as inferiors. Don't think we do,

Swedes, Finns and Norwegians heartily agree that Danes are fucked up.

Then again, they are all our brothers and we will not take lightly when people mess with family...

I presume thats because they lost a large chunk of their lands to the Swedes several centuries ago. Sweden gradually became the most dominant country in Scandinavia after the treaty of Roskilde.(Treaty of Roskilde - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Scandinavia1219.png


to this day however, the dialect of swedish spoken in skane (the southernmost province of sweden) is very similar to danish.

Swedish, Danish and Norwegian (Bokmål) is very similar.
We usually say that Danish, can be spoken by any Swede, as long as he has hot porridge in the mouth.

The southern Swedish dialect (Skånska) is not understood at all by the Danes.
Even though my family is from northern Sweden, I was born in southern Sweden,
and Skånska was my native tounge. Not any longer.

I normally have little problem with understanding Danish, but in northern/southern Jutland (the large peninsula)
they can be hard to understand, especially if they speak fast. If I have problems understanding,
I revert to Skånska.

It is a discreet way of telling the Danes to slow down.
Their thinking:
Hey, I understood this guy a moment ago. Now I understand NOTHING...
Why is this?
Maybe *I* am not understandable?
Yes, that must be it!

Dane suggest change of language to English!
- Problem solved.
 
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6a0134876862cb970c0133f4493be7970b-320pi


I like this map :yahoo:.


he he, if I'm not mistaken, this map reflects the domains of the Swedish Empire prior to the Great Northern War.

ps. i do admire the tenacity of Sweden's Charles XII.

@A.P. Richelieu ,

Im sure you, as a Swede, known of the Battle of Narva. A perfect example of how a smaller force being victorious over a larger enemy force through sound tactics. Strategists would say that had Sweden maintained a defensive / short range offensive campaign, the Great Northern War would have been favorable to Sweden's favor.

Super props to the Swedish Empire for successfully defeating the Danes, and the Poles while at the same time fighting the Russian Army. Tactical masters, if i say so myself.

:smitten:
 
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History tells us that the only country to beware of is Denmark, :-)
Except for some minor Russian incursions, this is the only country ever to
invade Sweden (not counting Finland which used to be part of Sweden).

Sweden has invaded Russia and captured Moscow once (1610), and that resulted in the first Romanov Tsar.
When the Poles, Danes and Russians attacked Sweden in the Great Nordic War, they were initially defeated,
but the invasion of Russia ending in the Battle of Poltava was to be a role model for later French and German
copycats.

Now we prefer doing our battles in the icehockeyrink (and Danes suck at icehockey):nhl_checking::nhl_checking::nhl_checking::nhl_checking:


A Dane could say the same thing. Swedish military supremacy was witnessed during the 30 Year War, under the banner of Gustav Adolphus, who introduced the classical line infantry technique and perfected the full frontal assault tactic that would be used throughout the 18th and 19th centuries in Europe and abroad.

PS. I'm sure Hamlet also questionable feelings towards the Swedish Empire. I do hope you are a Shakespearean reader...

:lol:
 
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It is a map of the peak extension of Sweden, not neccessarily all at the same time.

Gustavus Adolphus and Charles X create the "Greater Power of Sweden" (Stormakten), but Charles XII lost it.
Charles XI is much less known, but he created the formidable army, used by Charles XII.
Swedish Army manual only contained chapters on attack, so when phased with 3-4 x size Russian Army,
and wet gunpowder at Poltava (according to some memoirs, they tried to ambush some Russians
the day before, but the lead balls dropped to the ground after about 20 meters, when they fired their muskets).
they went for the attack.

First they split up the army into two wings, and tried to sneak past some Russian redoubts early in the morning.
Didnt bring any artillery to be more quiet.
Unfortunatly, the commander of the left wing, misunderstood the order, and
tried to take the first redoubt. Due to surprise, this was not a big issue.
He then tried to take the second redoubt, and this caused significant losses,
but eventually, this also succeeded, so he went for the third (there were five).
Everything would have been OK, except for a minor problem, he ran out of soldiers.

The right wing, with the King managed to slip past the redoubts and formed on the west end of
a field, while waiting for the right wing of the Army. This of course never appeared,
so it was decided the infantry would do a bayonet charge vs the Russian lines bristling with artillery.

Even though the Russians was outnumbering them greatly, and the field was ~1km wide,
the charge went home, and the Russians were reeling back,
but then the right wind also ran out of soldiers, and the rest of the day
is not counted as a fairy tale in Sweden.

See:
* "Pickets Charge at Gettysburg"
* "The Charge of the Light Brigade"
* "The Advance of the Imperial Guard at Waterloo"
 
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Wrong, but they only stayed there for a few months, so Poles may have captured it afterwards.

De la Gardieska fälttåget – Wikipedia

Have to make friends with Google Translate, I am afraid.

BTW: Sigismund was King of Sweden between 1592-1599.

What? Sweden were allies with Russia. It was the Poles who captured Moscow in 1610. Even the English Wikipedia link confirms this.

De la Gardie Campaign - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sigismund II Vasa was King of Poland before he became king of Sweden and he was also half Polish.

It were Poles who did that.

Sigismund III Vasa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

His son Wladyslaw IV Vasa even became Tsar for a short period (1610-1613) all while he was King of Poland at the same time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Władysław_IV_Vasa
 
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A Dane could say the same thing. Swedish military supremacy was witnessed during the 30 Year War, under the banner of Gustav Adolphus, who introduced the classical line infantry technique and perfected the full frontal assault tactic that would be used throughout the 18th and 19th centuries in Europe and abroad.

PS. I'm sure Hamlet also questionable feelings towards the Swedish Empire. I do hope you are a Shakespearean reader...

:lol:
A Dane could say the same thing. Swedish military supremacy was witnessed during the 30 Year War, under the banner of Gustav Adolphus, who introduced the classical line infantry technique and perfected the full frontal assault tactic that would be used throughout the 18th and 19th centuries in Europe and abroad.

PS. I'm sure Hamlet also questionable feelings towards the Swedish Empire. I do hope you are a Shakespearean reader...

:lol:
One of the interesting novelties introduced was the cavalry charge.
In those times, you would ride twoards the enemy, fire your pistols, retreat and reload.
The Swedish Cavalry would ride towards the enemy, fire the pistols, and then attack with the sword,
thus surprising the enemy with unfair methods.
The Cavalry also introduced the V formation, when you would ride in a double staggered line with the knee behind
the knee of the trooper on one side, and the knee ahead of the trooper on the other side, which means that
you would fit more troopers on a given length of front.
The Cavalry was so well practised that they could change direction in the middle of a charge,
which is not so easy to do.

Hamlet , if he lived was well before the time of Sweden. he was mentioned in the 12th century
and some people think that some Icelandic "sagas" from the 10th century is related to Hamlet.
We were all Vikings at that time, but the Viking raids in Western Europe were mainly Danes and Norwegians.
Swedes went Eastwards and some people claim that the Kiev kingdom of Rus was created by Swedish Vikings.
 
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