Madressas to be mainstreamed: DG ISPR

[RealNapster]

Baki choro aj kal to maulana hazrat bohat importan videos upload kar rahey hein youtube par jaisey key falan karney sey nikah tota hy key nahi

Gmada hy par danda hy ye

 

[Viny]

Well we have a reason for that . Though you clearly said



But let me tell you anyways.

As you know religion is in the category of “touch me not” here in Pakistan. Not that Allah will be angry but because mullahs cant afford this attitude. So they want us to shutup. And whenever someone try to speak all the mulla brigade is on streets blackmailing government. Same goes for politicions, they will even do politics on fallen soldiers let alone policies. (You have clearly seem this in your own country too post pulwama). So lets take an example, Molana Fazlur rehman (religion’s dealer turned Pakistan’s dealer turn Politition), he don’t like IK, maybe in his heart he won’t like army too. But his follower love army as like anyother Pakistnai. So IF someday Fazal ask his supporters to do something that is against army, they will refuse. So i guess government here used army for this very important issue. So that no politics or religious blackmailing is involved and that the process go smooth as ASAP. And coming back to the capacity issue, well Armed forces don’t run courts too. But you heard “everything is fair in love and war”. We are at state of war against extremism since 20 years. And we can’t afford any more delays. Army is the only institution in Pakistan who have the capacity to implement hard decisions.we ammended our constitution to allow military courts for 3 years period (with the concent of all politiical parties). Its not like one day COAS was bored and he said you know what, lets create a court and start trials of criminals and terrorists.

Very well presented your point and I do understand the same. But lets look deep into it to understand where this is headed too.

The whole trend is taking away the legitimacy of elected governance and unnecessarily bring up the armed forces in governing roles. Elected govt in order to save there faces puts up armed forced in front to interact with people.
A balanced approach could have been a joint press conference of home minister and DGISPR, where DGISPR presents the security threats associated with some Madarsa and there educational contents and then Home ministery speaking about what course of actions are planned and how this it would be tackled and what would be the role of armed forces.

The way DGISPR brought in the vision of Army Chief everytime is subconsciously project him as savior of nation.
Though it might sound so for many, who have seen armed forces as the legitimate force who are actually doing all the good for country.

And what do you think, how would this get implemented?
Will again the armed forces go into each madarsa, review there content and then tell them what they can do and what not? Or will be it be civil servant doing so? If a civil servant will do so, then whats the role of Armed Forces here and if none then armed forces have no role to speak about the same.

 

[RealNapster]

And what do you think, how would this get implemented?
Will again the armed forces go into each madarsa, review there content and then tell them what they can do and what not? Or will be it be civil servant doing so? If a civil servant will do so, then whats the role of Armed Forces here and if none then armed forces have no role to speak about the same

No. In press conference he said that a board (having members from Armed forces and government dept’s) is already created which is reviewing all courses (Islam is same so not that much change in madrasa courses) and designing a standard syllabus to be followed in each Madrasa. So reviewing every madrasa and its course is not necessary we would just need to implement the new course and keep proper monitoring of all madrasa for complete compliance.

A balanced approach could have been a joint press conference of home minister and DGISPR, where DGISPR presents the security threats associated with some Madarsa and there educational contents and then Home ministery speaking about what course of actions are planned and how this it would be tackled and what would be the role of armed forces.

The way DGISPR brought in the vision of Army Chief everytime is subconsciously project him as savior of nation.
Though it might sound so for many, who have seen armed forces as the legitimate force who are actually doing all the good for country

You are right. But Pakistan is not that easy country. Also, no one can deny the role of armed forces in Pakistan’s affairs. It existed in past, it still exist. The only difference is that in Past, the elected governments used to take orders from Military while now its about teamwork. We are on the right track. Ee have seen this in PTI sit-in in 2014, military didn’t intervened. Same case when Khadim husain rizvi sit-in in islamabad. Armed forces were behind Civilian government and ISPR said we will do what Government ask us to. So you see, the change is already happenig. But slowly. You can’t just cut all their influence in one go. Slowlyyyyy

 

[Viny]

No. In press conference he said that a board (having members from Armed forces and government dept’s) is already created which is reviewing all courses (Islam is same so not that much change in madrasa courses) and designing a standard syllabus to be followed in each Madrasa. So reviewing every madrasa and its course is not necessary we would just need to implement the new course and keep proper monitoring of all madrasa for complete compliance.

Why a joint body of armed force and govt dept is required to reviewing all courses.
Shouldnt it be the job of education ministry?
Somewhere having armed forces into it brings up two perspective

1. Either armed forces already had strong holds in Madarsa's and some of the radical ones where B team of Armed forces as accused by rest of the world. Thus presence of armed forces is required to bring in the needfull changes.

2. Secondly, with presence of armed forces in setting up the courses as well building armed forces roles in governance of mardarsa gives the armed forces access to wider range of madarsa, which can then be used to manage the government.

No denying the armed forces have big role in pakistan, but if we look it openly, this is more or less in lines with objectives of armed forces and they are trying to skirt the FATF observations and what to come clean on the FATF books so that pressure on central govt is reduced to certian extent and yet there grip of second line is not much diluted.

 

[RealNapster]

Why

Why a joint body of armed force and govt dept is required to reviewing all courses.
Shouldnt it be the job of education ministry

Pakistan is not your normal random country. Things are different in Pakistan, procedures are different Attitudes are different. One thing worked for you doesn’t mean it will work for us. We had to comeup with unique solution. Pakistan is an extraordinary country which need extraordnary steps and procedures in issues and affairs.

1. Either armed forces already had strong holds in Madarsa's and some of the radical ones where B team of Armed forces as accused by rest of the world. Thus presence of armed forces is required to bring in the needfull changes.

2. Secondly, with presence of armed forces in setting up the courses as well building armed forces roles in governance of mardarsa gives the armed forces access to wider range of madarsa, which can then be used to manage the government.

No denying the armed forces have big role in pakistan, but if we look it openly, this is more or less in lines with objectives of armed forces and they are trying to skirt the FATF observations and what to come clean on the FATF books so that pressure on central govt is reduced to certian extent and yet there grip of second line is not much diluted

If Armed forces had any influence on madrasas then why change that ? Why bring the matter in everyones attention then ? The point the armed forces want madrasas to be mainstreamed in itself tells that they were not under armed forces influence (well not all of them). Now i dont know what is the major contributory factor to this decision but it is a long waited thing which we finally going to do. And thats the same thing that even you (India) asking for so why not appreciate this instead of arguing who is doing it ?

 

[Viny]

Pakistan is not your normal random country. Things are different in Pakistan, procedures are different Attitudes are different. One thing worked for you doesn’t mean it will work for us. We had to comeup with unique solution. Pakistan is an extraordinary country which need extraordnary steps and procedures in issues and affairs.




If Armed forces had any influence on madrasas then why change that ? Why bring the matter in everyones attention then ? The point the armed forces want madrasas to be mainstreamed in itself tells that they were not under armed forces influence (well not all of them). Now i dont know what is the major contributory factor to this decision but it is a long waited thing which we finally going to do. And thats the same thing that even you (India) asking for so why not appreciate this instead of arguing who is doing it ?

Sorry if you felt that I am arguing on the objective of decisions, I am just trying to understand things in bigger perspective with some deeper connections. I already said modernisation of education system with proper guidance and control is must as this is about building the future of nation.

Having said that, I think the current govt understands the seriousness of FATF at large the importance of being part of rest of the world rather than being isolated. Hence all the announcements that came from DGISPR in lines with what rest of the world has been pointing out from long term and which was hardened in FATF reports to pakistan.

 

[I.R.A]

Jee bilkul darust farmaya.

MashAllah humare mulk mein sab kuch hey, bas qanoon kee baladasti ka door door tak koi naam o nishan nahi hey.

Under what law US government was running Guantanamo bay? Under what law NSA was spying on their own citizens and listening to their phone calls?

This is not whataboutery .......... this is asking you to write and post an article on that too someday. If not then what moral grounds you hold to criticize Pakistan? A genuine question.

It shouldn't have been that difficult to understand that why a military person was used to make this announcement on government's behalf, but no we have to create reasons for "damned if you do it, damned if you don't" ...... that spokesperson did refer to that as well "phelay khud kehtay ho operation karo, aur jab operation kartay hain to phir kehtay ho operation q kia".

 

[newb3e]

lols govt cant properly run the education system we have currebtky and now they want control over wafaq ul madaris!

next dg ispr will ask universities to teach engineering students astronomy because you have to be master of everything to become a valuable part of society!

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

I like the idea of Government over looking the Islamic Schools (Madrasas) however I want all folks to be given optional dosage of Islamic Civilization beyond the first 4 Caliphs

• Pakistan's Federal Studies on Islam are laughable and Weak , I am not a person who is 90% vested in Islam but even I realized how horrible the curricula is

Introduce 1-2 year of studies which cover the periods of expansion of Islamic Civilization post Abu Bakar, Omar, Uthman , Ali

• Go over the expansions into Syria
• Go over expansion into Iraq & Iran
• Go over expansion into Afghanistan and India
• Go over expansion into Euro

Go over it so people will understand the landmarks destroyed in Iraq , Syria who they belonged to , show them the empty libraries and relics where discoveries were made

Cover the infrastructure developed by Muslims in Spain and Europe only for them to lose it
Cover the Humiliation of being exiled from Spain forced to live in Deserts of Northern Africa

Cover Ottoman Empire

Cover The knowledge centers for Muslims which existed for 300-400 years across Islamic landscape

Cover Islamic Navy and it's conquests, establishing most of the sea routes of modern age

Cover the Loss of Muslim Science and Scientific centers in wars with Mongols, when scripts were destroyed which took 300-400 years to collect the ink spread in the rivers and turned the color of river dark till those research papers were lost for ever

Cover various Islamic weapons used for last 1400 years how this has evolved

Cover Music in Islamic Civilization and forgotten traits

Cover Islamic contribution to Astronomy , Navy Navigation

Yes Madrassas should be upgraded but the upgrade should be for the broader understanding and enlightenment of student's education , so they would understand their place in World


I'm 100% behind Pakistan Army's move, build an enlightened Muslims not someone who just learns the first 3-8 years of Islam and is clueless beyond




99.9% Pakistanis have 0% knowledge on Islamic Heritage


Once they will attain the knowledge they will value importance of Country and State




Not their fault if the war in Iraq/Syria/Iran resembles end of time prophecies

The infighting between the Kings , Monarchs , Military Heads , political game played across Islamic country's landscape resulted in many of these folks wrongly assuming end of time was near , which caused them to make massive mistake

Failiure of Leaders of Islamic world lead to the misunderstanding

Great post, I hope we establish such courses in our future.

I had to learn all this knowledge on my own, to have an answer for my Western colleagues.

It is a shame sometimes that I know more about history than most people double my age.

I have a feeling we are definitely moving in this direction.

We could establish a model education system which has a full and complete emphasis on Islamic knowledge and secular knowledge.

 

[Jf Thunder]

didnt we try that before as well?
why not start with Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa?

 

[Verve]

The way DGISPR brought in the vision of Army Chief everytime

You are not Muslim and you won't understand how we in Pakistan value a good Sipah Salaar.

Why do you have a problem with it?

 

[RealNapster]

Sorry if you felt that I am arguing on the objective of decisions, I am just trying to understand things in bigger perspective with some deeper connections. I already said modernisation of education system with proper guidance and control is must as this is about building the future of nation.

Having said that, I think the current govt understands the seriousness of FATF at large the importance of being part of rest of the world rather than being isolated. Hence all the announcements that came from DGISPR in lines with what rest of the world has been pointing out from long term and which was hardened in FATF reports to pakistan.

Even if its due to FATF, i would say grey list wasn’t that bad for us either. Because we learnt. Its good that current government along Establishment (acting as one unit) understands the issue, accepts that deficiencies exists and trying to correct them .

 

[VCheng]

Under what law US government was running Guantanamo bay? Under what law NSA was spying on their own citizens and listening to their phone calls?

This is not whataboutery .......... this is asking you to write and post an article on that too someday. If not then what moral grounds you hold to criticize Pakistan? A genuine question.

It shouldn't have been that difficult to understand that why a military person was used to make this announcement on government's behalf, but no we have to create reasons for "damned if you do it, damned if you don't" ...... that spokesperson did refer to that as well "phelay khud kehtay ho operation karo, aur jab operation kartay hain to phir kehtay ho operation q kia".

Nice whataboutery.

When has the US military ever made such a statement about prescribing what is to be taught in religious schools in the country?

 

[I.R.A]

Nice whataboutery.

No deflections please ........ if you are against the illegality, the one near you must disturb you most. I would like to read an article on that posted and most preferably written by you.

When has the US military ever made such a statement about prescribing what is to be taught in religious schools in the country?

And when did Pakistan military run Guantanamo bay type detention camps? Or when did ISI do what NSA did / does?

By the way are we going to ignore, who was funding the Afghan Jihad and who were the primary master minds of setting up these seminaries / madrassa?

 

[VCheng]

And when did Pakistan military run Guantanamo bay type detention camps? Or when did ISI do what NSA did / does?

Please read up on the Missing Persons Case before the Pakistani Supreme Court to get an idea of what the Pakistan military does to its citizens, if you really want to persist with your whataboutery in this thread.