Madrassa reforms - Suggestions

[Prawnsroo]

Have you ever wondered how likes of Fazal Ur Rehman get elected each and every time? That is what's wrong with this madrassa business. I don't have anything against these madrassas in general but if I were to run this country and these madrassas wouldn't behave I won't show no mercy. These madrassas are an easy escape for people who breed in abundance. Balance in everything is key to being successful Muslims not just sitting on rears and waiting for miracle to happen.

I am a very saada dimaag musalmaan, I genuinely don't know whatelse you can do in a Masjid except for saying your namaaz and read the Holy Quran. For education, enrol yourself in a school and and prayers go to your masjid. Allah give the rightouse ones the strength to fight those who have made it a business out of Islam.

 

[I.R.A]

There is nothing wrong with Maulsns Fazl ur Rehman's education. You can find issues with his observance of the knowledge passed to him.

May be there is nothing wrong with Fazal ur Rehman's education but again I don't find any good in him or likes of him. These guys are running madrassa business to secure their vote banks, there is no community service nothing ........... if they ask someone for (black) money they only need to tell that guy to give charity to one of their madrassa. Things are not what we emotional fools are made to understand.

I am a very saada dimaag musalmaan, I genuinely don't know whatelse you can do in a Masjid except for saying your namaaz and read the Holy Quran. For education, enrol yourself in a school and and prayers go to your masjid. Allah give the rightouse ones the strength to fight those who have made it a business out of Islam.

We are all saada dimagh Muslims ............. but letting them exploit our saadagi is not what a Muslim should allow.

 

[CriticalThought]

May be there is nothing wrong with Fazal ur Rehman's education but again I don't find any good in him or likes of him. These guys are running madrassa business to secure their vote banks, there is no community service nothing ........... if they ask someone for (black) money they only need to tell that guy to give charity to one of their madrassa. Things are not what we emotional fools are made to understand.

Factually wrong. First of all, the Madressahs are NOT a profit making business enterprise. If someone is illegitimately subverting funds and in effect stealing the money, such a person should be accountable and will definitely be accountable in the Court of Allah the Almighty.

Secondly, the politicians are not running Madressahs. Individual philanthropists finance the whole process of land acquisition, construction, and finally running them. If you have solid proof that black money is being laundered through the Madressah system, please bring forth your evidence otherwise refrain from making baseless allegations.

If the Madressahs are really not providing any community service, then I challenge you, please write your will clearly stating that your Namaaz-e-Janaaza (funeral prayers) MUST NOT be led by ANYONE who has studied in a Madressah, your final burying rite should also NOT be performed by any such person, and finally, no such person should be employed to recite the Holy Quran for Eesaal-e-Sawab ever. And depending on how staunch you are in your dislike, you can start wishing in your heart that you should be excluded from the regular prayers of any such person as well. Honestly, my heart is bleeding just writing these words. This is a fate I wouldn't wish upon my worst enemy, much less a fellow practicing Muslim. Please consider the implications of what you write. Thank you.

 

[M. Sarmad]

No sir, I didn't know about it but that seems to be a great idea. However, the masjid in a small town near Multan where my parental home is located was created for all sects and both Shia, Sunni and even Wahabis, all used to pray together..though it has been more than 7 - 8 years since the last time I prayed there.


That's really shocking, and unfortunate, because I don't know about the laws regarding registration of the masjid and why CDA acted like that. Yes you are right Quran clearly wants us to avoid sectarianism and be united through it (Quran) and it is the only book that remains to be uncontroversial. But sir, I don't know if our constitution requires one to identify one's sectarian affiliation at least not for NICOP and passports..is it any different for dual passport holders?.

To bypass the strict CDA rules requiring every mosque to declare it's sect following before being granted permission to build the mosque, a trust had to be registered first, and then the mosque was sub-registered under the trust’s banner: The Al-Kitaab Foundation Trust. :

http://www.dawn.com/news/1030003


As for our constitution, unfortunately, not only it recognizes sects, sectarian prejudice has been codified in our National Law. Discriminatory legislation erodes legal and social status of religious minorities. And for Muslims, It grants all sects of Muslims the right to establish, maintain and manage their religious institutions ... And it states that All existing laws shall be brought in conformity with the Injunctions of Islam as laid down in the Holy Quran and Sunnah, in this Part referred to as the Injunctions of Islam, and no law shall be enacted which is repugnant to such Injunctions.... Through an amendment in 1980, it was added that In the application of this clause to the personal law of any Muslim sect, the expression "Quran and Sunnah" shall mean the Quran and Sunnah as interpreted by that sect. ...... And after recognizing/constitutionalizing sectarianism, our constitution requires the state to “discourage parochial, racial, tribal, sectarian and provincial prejudices among the citizens.”, However, no serious effort has ever been made in this regard by any government.


You don't have to declare your sect for NIC or Passport, but You have to make a declaration (In case of Muslim):

I consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani to be an imposter nabi and also consider his followers
whether belonging to the Lahori or Qadiani group, to be Non Muslim


You cannot be considered Officially Muslim in Pakistan without doing Takfir


Many institutions (like PA) however do require you to declare your sect before joining them ..

Yes everyone is born Muslim and is allocated their own piece in heaven, but then their environment turns them into Christian, Hindu etc. Hence, if someone fails the three questions asked after death: Who is your God? What is your religion? And a picture of Hazrat Muhammad Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam is shown and the question is asked: What is your opinion regarding this person? If these questions are not answered correctly, a scene of their original portion of heaven is shown and they are told 'This is where you belonged originally' then a scene from Hell is shown where people are falling over each other and they are told: 'But now this is your destiny'. Upon hearing this the person cries out his wish that the Day of Judgement may never arrive. On the other hand, if someone passes the questions, the scenes are reversed and the person cries out his wish that the Day of Judgement should happen right now. May Allah guide us all in steadfastly following the right path.
.

^^ Conjecture and hearsay only

As per the Holy Quran, Christians, Jews, Sabians .... all can go to heaven

"Surely, those who believe, those who are the Jews and the Sabians and the Christians – whosoever believed in Allah and the Last Day, and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
[The Holy Quran 5: 69]

“Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.” [2: 62]

 

[CriticalThought]

^^ Conjecture and hearsay only

As per the Holy Quran, Christians, Jews, Sabians .... all can go to heaven

"Surely, those who believe, those who are the Jews and the Sabians and the Christians – whosoever believed in Allah and the Last Day, and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
[The Holy Quran 5: 69]

“Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.” [2: 62]

How do you interpret the verses quoted below? You gave yourself away as soon as you equated the relegation of Qadiyanis as non-Muslims to 'Takfir'.
-----------------------
( 137 ) So if they believe in the same as you believe in, then they have been [rightly] guided; but if they turn away, they are only in dissension, and Allah will be sufficient for you against them. And He is the Hearing, the Knowing.
( 138 ) [And say, "Ours is] the religion of Allah. And who is better than Allah in [ordaining] religion? And we are worshippers of Him."
( 139 ) Say, [O Muhammad], "Do you argue with us about Allah while He is our Lord and your Lord? For us are our deeds, and for you are your deeds. And we are sincere [in deed and intention] to Him."
( 140 ) Or do you say that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants were Jews or Christians? Say, "Are you more knowing or is Allah?" And who is more unjust than one who conceals a testimony he has from Allah? And Allah is not unaware of what you do.
( 141 ) That is a nation which has passed on. It will have [the consequence of] what it earned, and you will have what you have earned. And you will not be asked about what they used to do.
[2:137-141]
------------------------
( 19 ) Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam. And those who were given the Scripture did not differ except after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoever disbelieves in the verses of Allah, then indeed, Allah is swift in [taking] account.
( 20 ) So if they argue with you, say, "I have submitted myself to Allah [in Islam], and [so have] those who follow me." And say to those who were given the Scripture and [to] the unlearned, "Have you submitted yourselves?" And if they submit [in Islam], they are rightly guided; but if they turn away - then upon you is only the [duty of] notification. And Allah is Seeing of [His] servants.
( 21 ) Those who disbelieve in the signs of Allah and kill the prophets without right and kill those who order justice from among the people - give them tidings of a painful punishment.
( 22 ) They are the ones whose deeds have become worthless in this world and the Hereafter, and for them there will be no helpers.
[3:19-22]
--------------------------
( 84 ) Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him."
( 85 ) And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.
[3:84-85]

 

[M. Sarmad]

How do you interpret the verses quoted below? You gave yourself away as soon as you equated the relegation of Qadiyanis as non-Muslims to 'Takfir'.
-----------------------
( 137 ) So if they believe in the same as you believe in, then they have been [rightly] guided; but if they turn away, they are only in dissension, and Allah will be sufficient for you against them. And He is the Hearing, the Knowing.
( 138 ) [And say, "Ours is] the religion of Allah. And who is better than Allah in [ordaining] religion? And we are worshippers of Him."
( 139 ) Say, [O Muhammad], "Do you argue with us about Allah while He is our Lord and your Lord? For us are our deeds, and for you are your deeds. And we are sincere [in deed and intention] to Him."
( 140 ) Or do you say that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants were Jews or Christians? Say, "Are you more knowing or is Allah?" And who is more unjust than one who conceals a testimony he has from Allah? And Allah is not unaware of what you do.
( 141 ) That is a nation which has passed on. It will have [the consequence of] what it earned, and you will have what you have earned. And you will not be asked about what they used to do.
[2:137-141]
------------------------
( 19 ) Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam. And those who were given the Scripture did not differ except after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoever disbelieves in the verses of Allah, then indeed, Allah is swift in [taking] account.
( 20 ) So if they argue with you, say, "I have submitted myself to Allah [in Islam], and [so have] those who follow me." And say to those who were given the Scripture and [to] the unlearned, "Have you submitted yourselves?" And if they submit [in Islam], they are rightly guided; but if they turn away - then upon you is only the [duty of] notification. And Allah is Seeing of [His] servants.
( 21 ) Those who disbelieve in the signs of Allah and kill the prophets without right and kill those who order justice from among the people - give them tidings of a painful punishment.
( 22 ) They are the ones whose deeds have become worthless in this world and the Hereafter, and for them there will be no helpers.
[3:19-22]
--------------------------
( 84 ) Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him."
( 85 ) And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.
[3:84-85]

I find none of these verses contradicting 2:62 or 5:69 ...

The Qur’an does not allow us to play the game of polemics, it is not possible to claim that only those called ‘Muslims’ in the confessional sense enter Paradise; rather, we are called upon to stress heartfelt submission to God, together with the practice of virtue in consequence of that submission, as being the foundation upon which one can legitimately hope for that divine grace by means of which, alone, one enters Paradise. :

Beyond Polemics and Pluralism: The Universal Message of the Qur’an

Relegation of Qadiyanis as Non-Muslims is Takfir .. As the Qadiyanis consider themselves Muslim ... What is YOUR definition of Takfir ?


Anyway, that's another topic and is not related to the thread ... No need to derail this thread

 

[CriticalThought]

I find none of these verses contradicting 2:62 or 5:69 ...

The Qur’an does not allow us to play the game of polemics, it is not possible to claim that only those called ‘Muslims’ in the confessional sense enter Paradise; rather, we are called upon to stress heartfelt submission to God, together with the practice of virtue in consequence of that submission, as being the foundation upon which one can legitimately hope for that divine grace by means of which, alone, one enters Paradise. :

Beyond Polemics and Pluralism: The Universal Message of the Qur’an

Relegation of Qadiyanis as Non-Muslims is Takfir .. As the Qadiyanis consider themselves Muslim ... What is YOUR definition of Takfir ?


Anyway, that's another topic and is not related to the thread ... No need to derail this thread

The Ismailis are considered non-Muslims and the Fatwa to that effect can be found on banuri.edu.pk the author you are referring to has no legitimacy whatsoever.

Takfir would be declaring a Muslim a non-Muslim. There is no Takfir when people like Hindus, Christians, Qadiyanis, Ismailis, Bohris etc are called Kafir. It's called 'Calling a spade a spade'.

 

[EgyptianAmerican]

I have never advocated killing all mullahs or anyone one that has or is going to a madrassa but anyone who stands against the state deserves to be executed in the most exemplary of ways without fear of retaliation.
Over a decade of inaction in the face of blatant violence has not lead to peace, hast it?
It is exactly because of the terrorist and their apoligist like you that the nation stands paralysed, incapable of decisive action.
We need to bring the mullahs to the table declare our term, negotiate with the reasonable ones and take actions against the fanatics.
You talk about me not having balls to do anything but let me assure you I have done more than most and will continue to do so and refrain from personal attacks and if you don't agree with me either refute my opinion or ignore it.


What is this cult and how to I join it

Anyone who stands against the state should be executed? That is some Stalin Authoritarian shit right there.

What is this? You think that anyone that goes against a state should be put to death? That is ridiculous. Next you will be saying that Martin Luther king Jr should have been put to death in front of the supreme court for daring to question the government.


There is a free market of ideas, you need to allow those ideas to continue no matter how toxic they are because the good ideas will trump the bad ones. If you bring the ban hammer, that doesn't show you to be superior or better. That just means that you afraid of what they are saying and what it entails.

 

[M. Sarmad]

The Ismailis are considered non-Muslims and the Fatwa to that effect can be found on banuri.edu.pk the author you are referring to has no legitimacy whatsoever.

Well, the author holds a PhD degree in Comparative Religion. For me, what he says has much more legitimacy than what the ignorant sectarian/takfiri Mullahs or their blind followers say on this subject ..

Peace

 

[Khan_patriot]

There is a free market of ideas, you need to allow those ideas to continue no matter how toxic they are because the good ideas will trump the bad ones. If you bring the ban hammer, that doesn't show you to be superior or better. That just means that you afraid of what they are saying and what it entails.

Yes I appreciate freedom of speech, democracy etc as much as the next guy but when someone stands guilty of treason, terrorism and violence against the state then he has to be executed as per the constitution.
ML King was not a terrorist, neither he nor his believers blew themselves up in schools, churches, mosques etc so the comparison is irrelevant.
To me it's simple if someone goes against the state they are commiting treason and if found guilty in a court of law they will be put down.
The world has been too soft on these terrorists for too long, it's time to act in a manner they understand.
Pakistan Zindabad l.

 

[EgyptianAmerican]

Yes I appreciate freedom of speech, democracy etc as much as the next guy but when someone stands guilty of treason, terrorism and violence against the state then he has to be executed as per the constitution.
ML King was not a terrorist, neither he nor his believers blew themselves up in schools, churches, mosques etc so the comparison is irrelevant.
To me it's simple if someone goes against the state they are commiting treason and if found guilty in a court of law they will be put down.
The world has been too soft on these terrorists for too long, it's time to act in a manner they understand.
Pakistan Zindabad l.

Care to point to a single madrassa in Pakistan that openly allows and advocates for Suicide bombings? If there is then go ahead but the truth of the matter is that almost all of them advocate no such thing. To act like they do is ridiculous.

Putting someone to death because they raise weapons to the state I can understand but that is not what they are doing. To blow up Islamic schools and to put to death Mullahs only shows that you are afraid and scared of what they are saying.

 

[CriticalThought]

Well, the author holds a PhD degree in Comparative Religion. For me, what he says holds much more legitimacy than what the ignorant sectarian Mullahs or their blind followers say on this subject ..

Peace

Just as FYI, for someone to be able to hold credibility regarding Islam and it's Commands, some basic conditions need to be satisfied.

1. The person MUST be a practicing Muslim. This is because people who have credibility do not provide a mere commentary on Islamic teachings. The provide spiritual guidance. And someone who is himself misguided can never guide others.

2. The person MUST be able to trace his line of tutelage right back to Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam. So called PhDs from various universities are brain washed agents who have the agenda to wipe out the teachings of Islam as they were revealed originally by Allah the Almighty by Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam.

3. The person must understand not just 'llm-e-Sharia' (the knowledge of Sharia') but also 'Mizaaj-e-Shariat' (the intentions of Shariat). Otherwise, words can simply be twisted or applied towards the wrong end. You see this happening when someone takes it upon themselves to kill innocent people and thinks he is actually following the right path.

Anyway, I pray to Allah the Almighty that He May give us all the true Guidance or Hidayah and keep us all steadfast in following it.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Care to point to a single madrassa in Pakistan that openly allows and advocates for Suicide bombings?

The pro-Taliban Lal Masjid administration on Friday vowed to enforce Islamic laws in the federal capital and threatened to unleash a wave of suicide bombers if the government took any action to counter it.

“Our youth will commit suicide attacks, if the government impedes the enforcement of the Sharia and attacks Lal Masjid and its sister seminaries,”

http://www.dawn.com/news/241168

 

[EgyptianAmerican]

The pro-Taliban Lal Masjid administration on Friday vowed to enforce Islamic laws in the federal capital and threatened to unleash a wave of suicide bombers if the government took any action to counter it.


http://www.dawn.com/news/241168

F*ck me, should have expected this dumbassery from Radicals. I concede this argument.

 

[khansaheeb]

demolish them all and replace with bars, clubs and other fun infidel stuff.

Next you will be asking them to drink cow piss and join the Mumbai brothels.