Made in India AWACS to roll out in February

[satishkumarcsc]

Do you people have any plans to use possible domestic platforms for your AWACs programmes as well? Any projects you have that could act as a domestic platform?

must wait for 10 more years though lol.

 

[sancho]

Thx girl but genius is too much!

Not that I am surprised about your denial, although I provided 2 different sources that proved you wrong, but I expected at least more from you than this:

As you can see the interferometer antenna is small enough to fit on the wingtip

So the only reason why you are speculating here, is that the Saab 2000 has ESM pods on the wingtips? But you did realised that the DRDO AWACS has winglets right?

The EMB 145 of DRDO AWACS has even way more fuselage changes then the normal EMB 145 Erieye, that the Brazilian airforce is using (interferometery on both sides, satcom on top, refuelling probe in the front...), but that doesn't mean it gets more radar coverage, because both have only 2 radar arrays and the Erieye offers 160° coverage each array, DRDO 120°.

Moreover, why don't you try it with simple logic? IF those conformal antenna would be radar arrays, they would cover only the same area to the sides, that the twin array on top is covering anyway and we still would have the same blind spots to the front and aft field, so it's totally useless!

If you want 360° radar detection without blind spots, you have to add more radar arrays in the front, or the aft field, just like the Israelis did it with their Gulfstream Phalcon. Check the pic satishkumarcsc posted, it shows conformal radar arrays on both sides of the fuselage INSTEAD of a twin array on top! In addition to that, it has a radar array in the nose, as well as in the aft section of the fuselage.

 

[dbc]

Thx girl but genius is too much!

First, you do realize when I called you a genius I was being sarcastic.

So the only reason why you are speculating here, is that the Saab 2000 has ESM pods on the wingtips? But you did realised that the DRDO AWACS has winglets right?

Not location but size and purpose, interferometer arrays are typically classified as Very Small Array, small enough to fit on the wing tip of a fighter as a mater of fact Gripen has two on its wingtip.

http://products.saabgroup.com/pdbwebnew/GetFile.aspx?PathType=ProductFiles&FileType=Files&Id=7852

Very Small Array - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Moreover, why don't you try it with simple logic? IF those conformal antenna would be radar arrays, they would cover only the same area to the sides, that the twin array on top is covering anyway and we still would have the same blind spots to the front and aft field, so it's totally useless!

It is a conformal array, conformal antenna have its T/R modules arranged to 'conform' to almost any shape desired. See below image, clearly T/R modules will be placed by DRDO for improved coverage aft and fore to the side and downward for high resolution SAR.

I'm certain you won't agree and will continue to present some retarded arguments to justify a huge interferometer array on the side - it should be good for a few laughs.

 

[RPK]

The Mission System Controller (MSC) is the nerve centre of the Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) system offering sensor data fusion to obtain recognisable air situation picture, identification and classification of targets, evaluation of threat, and control and guidance of friendly interceptor fighters of the Indian Air Force.
The Indian AEW C system being developed by DRDO with CABS as the nodal agency will detect identify, and classify threats present in the surveillance volume and will act as a Command and Control Centre to support air defence operations The system with its multiple Communication and Data Links can alert and direct fighters against threats while providing Recognisable Air Situation Picture RASP to commanders at the Ground Exploitation Stations GES that are strategically located The AEW C system can thus support the Indian Air Force in offensive strike missions and assist Forces in the tactical battlearea.

The Electronic and CommunicationSupport Measures (ESM &CSM) of the system can intercept andcounter unfriendly radar transmissionsand communicationsignals. The AEW C system thuscomprises a number of major subsystems viz Primary Radar PR Secondary Surveillance Radar (SSR) or Identification Friend or Foe IFF Electronic Support Measures ESM Communication Support Measures CSM Mission Communication
System (MCS) that includes the 'C'-band and 'Ku'-band SATCOM Data Links and the V/UHF Voice and Data Link (DL), Self-protection System (SPS), Data Handling and DisplaySystem (DHDS),andMSC.
The MSC is the most important sub system of the AEW C system. The MSC serves as a central mission
computer which is integrated withall theAEW Cmission sub systems

The Mission Storage Unit MSU stores the mission record data which includes audio video from the five operator workstations OWSs and raw data from selected sensors The MSU has storage capacity of two
Terabyte so that it can store multiple mission data. The various sensors and sources considered for fusion include PR secondary radar ESM DLs, and knowledge bases The sensor data integration module performs Multi Sensor Tracking MST by combining the data from multiple sensors and performing a track level fusion This module performs all required preprocessing, such as sensor registration data alignment time alignment data estimation and data and track association prior to fusion. This module also performs track to track fusion to enhance the quality of the track The identification and classification module identifies and classifies the unknown but refined track by fusing and correlating data from sensors and sources. This module performs flight plan correlation ESM correlation and IFF correlation to achieve the desired objectives. The threat assessment module evaluates the threat for the identified tracks with respect to AEW&C and the desired vulnerable areas and vulnerable points. The module also evaluates the threat and provides necessary alerts to operators of the AEW&C

The command and control functionalities of the AEW C system are carried out in the intercept control segment of MSC. The module carries out threat assessment weapon assignment interception guidance, and recovery. The module acts as a decision-aid to the operator and provides the threat level considering the reachability and weapon envelopes of the target intention and capability of the threat and the asset priorities The module also provides the confidence level on the suitability of pairing of interceptors against targets for
operator selection. The module generates intercept solutions based on the type and configuration of the interceptor and weapons onboard the interceptor using guidance algorithms such as collision course, offset and pursuitor any combination of these. The module also gives the time to interception, the launch point and the kill point for operator's situation awareness and sends this information to be relayed to the fighters.

The LRUs of the MSC are at various stages of being qualified for airborne use. The embedded software in the MSC are also undergoing the independent verification and validation process. A functionally provenMSCis already inactive use integrating all other subsystems of the AEW&C with their 'nerve-centre' called MSC.

 

[sancho]

First, you do realize when I called you a genius I was being sarcastic.

So was I

Not location but size and purpose, interferometer arrays are typically classified as Very Small Array, small enough to fit on the wing tip of a fighter as a mater of fact Gripen has two on its wingtip.

Rafale, F16 has them too, but that doesn't mean anything in regard to the DRDO AEWCS, or will you argue as well that because these fighters uses smaller radars, DRDO AWACS must have a smaller radar too?

It is a conformal array, conformal antenna have its T/R modules arranged to 'conform' to almost any shape desired. See below image, clearly T/R modules will be placed by DRDO for improved coverage aft and fore to the side

LOL and again speculation only, if that would be true, why would the twin radar arrays on top needed? That doesn't make sense!

I'm certain you won't agree and will continue to present some retarded arguments to justify a huge interferometer array on the side - it should be good for a few laughs.

Of course, because I backed my points with sources of the DRDO AWACS and you (as usual) has nothing but claims and pics that has nothing to do with it, but I'm used to this distraction tactics.

Again I rest my case unless you will be able to find a single source that confirms your weird theory.

 

[Dalai Lama]

Any chance that these AWACS could be used on an aircraft carrier? Forgive me if that sounds like a stupid question.

 

[sancho]

Any chance that these AWACS could be used on an aircraft carrier? Forgive me if that sounds like a stupid question.

Hi, no it can't, the wings can't be folded like at the E-2 for example, which makes it too big in size for a carrier, apart from other changes that would be needed.

 

[dbc]

Of course, because I backed my points with sources of the DRDO AWACS and you (as usual)

Like I said before your posts are always good for a few laughs . Let me use your own evidence against you (see below).

The table at the bottom of the image you previously posted tells us the Interferometer antenna array has only four elements it also tells us the inter element spacing required for each frequency band. The largest spacing is required while operating within the lowest frequency band 0.5 Ghz to 2 Ghz.

D1 = 194 mm
D2= 291 mm
D3= 485 mm


From the DRDO graphic and array element spacing data provided we know the interferometer antenna is close to 3.2 ft but no longer than 4 feet. If the side array is as you claim the interferometer antenna array then the bulge on the side must be 4 feet, if we estimate the length of the aircraft based on a 4ft long antenna we incorrectly estimate the length of the Embraer 145 Aircraft to be 40 ft, 60ft short of the actual length of Embraer 145 (100 ft). Obviously the side protrusion can't be the interferometer antenna, since the width of the conformal array is clearly much larger than 4ft and appears to be closer to 10 or 12 feet.

Below is an image of a four element interferometer antenna LR-100 installed on the Australian Wedgetail Boeing 737 AEW&C. The dimension of the Wedgetail's LR-100 interferometer array is

Height 3.75 inches
Width 13.375 inches
Depth 6.84 inches

Why will DRDO install a huge 144 inch four element interferometer array on the DRDO Embraer AEW&C when a much larger and more powerful AEW&C fits the same number of elements on a smaller 13.3 inch interferometer array? You latched onto the interferometer array theory without knowing what it does or how its sized or positioned. The graphic you picked up and presented as evidence appears to dated and is inconsistent with the AeroIndia 2009 model so either DRDO added a few enhancements later or the model presented during AeroIndia 2009 is a future block improvement with conformal AESA side arrays added to the original design.

 

[sancho]

@ DBC

Again you are trying to prove one speculation with another one and still can't provide a single source that says anything about an AESA radar array to provide 360° radar detection in that blister!

Btw, who said that the interferometry antenna will be the only part there? The livefist graphic is showing the location of the antennas around the aircraft, so besides this antenna, the blisters on both side of the fuselage should house other sensors of the ESM as well and that's why they need to have a bigger size. Not to forget that I already told you that the winglets on the AWACS varient of the EMB 145, makes it neccesary to use another location for these ESM parts, that the Saab 2000 and the 737 Wedgetail are carrying on the wingtips. Putting them on such conformal blisters, is not even unusual, even USAF E-3C have them:

The recently installed ESM array is prominent. It uses a dual baseline interferometry scheme for precision DF.

Wedgetail AEW&C


More pics of them:
Boeing E-3C Sentry - ESM blisters | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Boeing E-3C Sentry - right hand side | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

To make it even more precise:

AN/AYR-1 ESM system (United States), Airborne electronic warfare (EW) systems

Type
Airborne Electronic Counter Measures (ECM), Electronic Support Measures (ESM) system.

Description
The AN/AYR-1 is an advanced ESM system which is part of an upgrade to US Air Force and NATO E-3 AWACS aircraft. The system undertakes passive interception, identification and analysis of radar and radio signals. The antennas are installed in a blister on either side of the aircraft, just aft of the cockpit, and in nose and tail arrays, to provide 360° azimuth coverage.

AN/AYR-1 ESM system (United States) - Jane's Avionics


By the fact that your whole argumentation is based only on the size of the blisters, consider how big an E-3 AWACS is and what size these blisters must have? But by your logic they must house an AESA radar right?

Also it's not only the livefist graphic that shows that this location on the DRDO AWACS is for the ESM antennas, also the following brochure does it (check the pic on the lower right):

Bottom line is, you are just speculating, without any base, or logic and can't provide a single proof!

 

[dbc]

@ DBC

Again you are trying to prove one speculation with another one and still can't provide a single source that says anything about an AESA radar array to provide 360° radar detection in that blister!

Did I say 360° radar detection? I said....

...other conformal antenna arrays located around the aircraft will provide better coverage than is possible with Erieye.

The word I used was better coverage, I don't expect the 'new' Indian AEW&C to have 360° radar coverage, I expect the new side array to compensate for performance degradation of the dorsal AESA radar(roof mounted radar) beyond 120° due to wave superposition and the new array also appears to be positioned for better forward coverage.

Also it's not only the livefist graphic that shows that this location on the DRDO AWACS is for the ESM antennas, also the following brochure does it (check the pic on the lower right):

First you're comparing the sensors of a much larger and older system (E-3C) with the much smaller and newer Indian AEW&C with ESM sensors built by DARE and EADS, second the AN/AYR-1 was first operationally deployed in 1993 - I wouldn't call that recent!

*DaimlerChrysler Aerospace:*Contract for NATO E-3 upgrade placed January 1993; designated Mod Block 1; includes new colour displays, Have-Quick secure radios Link 16 (JTIDS) datalink and AN/AYR-1 Electronic Support Measures (ESM); initial two aircraft under 1993 contract; follow-on order for remaining 16 modifications placed mid-1993; all retrofit work by DASA in Germany. All Mod Block 1 activities completed in November 1997.

JAU 22/07/99 - *AIRCRAFT - FIXED-WING - MILITARY/USA/BOEING E-3 SENTRY

You choose to ignore the element spacing data provided by DRDO and continue to argue that the large side array that is not shown in any brochure including the one in your last post is an interferometer array. The large side array is only present in the model displayed at AeroIndia 2009, it isn't shown on the model displayed in your brochure. The area you're referring to as the location of the interferometer array is closer to the passenger door and not near the wing. The only thing you've proved yet again is that you're closed off and unable to accept new ideas or an alternate point of view.

 

[sancho]

Did I say 360° radar detection? I said....

The word I used was better coverage, I don't expect the 'new' Indian AEW&C to have 360° radar coverage,

Lets see:

clearly T/R modules will be placed by DRDO for improved coverage aft and fore...

That's 360° coverage, don't deny it now!

First you're comparing the sensors of a much larger and older system (E-3C)

Not the sensors, but the conformal blisters and their function, which are similar to the DRDO AWACS and obviously for the same reasons.

The area you're referring to as the location of the interferometer array is closer to the passenger door and not near the wing.

Not really, check the livefist graphic again that shows the antennas locations and you will see that the interterometry antennas are exactly at the location where the new blisters are and that there are additional antennas/sensors before the blisters, closer to the cockpit.
So they will put the ESM on both sides of the fuselage, not additional radars to get (just in case you want to deny your own words again ):

improved coverage aft and fore

The only thing you've proved yet again is that you're closed off and unable to accept new ideas or an alternate point of view.

When you have a point ok it, but you haven't and are just speculating and all available sources are proving you wrong, so why should I accept it then?

 

[dbc]

When you have a point ok it, but you haven't and are just speculating and all available sources are proving you wrong, so why should I accept it then?

Are you prepared to admit you're wrong? The Indian AEW&C has two types of AESA radar. The S-Band radar is roof mounted, while the L-Band radar is side mounted.

Any more silly arguments?

One of the star attractions at the Defence Research & Development’s (DRDO) pavilion in Bengaluru were various components of the indigenous airborne early warning and control system (AEW & CS) that is now under development. It may be recalled that in a path-breaking development, Brazil and India on July 3 last year had inked a US$210 million agreement to jointly develop an AEW & CS for the Indian Air Force (IAF). The agreement was signed by Dr S Christopher, Director, of the DRDO’s Bangalore-based Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS), and Luis Carlos Aguiar, Embraer’s Executive Vice President (Defence and Govt Markets), in the presence of Marco Brandao, Brazilian Ambassador to India, and M Natarajan, Scientific Adviser to India’s Defence Minister and Secretary, DRDO. India, incidentally, had earlier acquired five EMB-135BT ‘Legacy’ executive jets, under a Rs7.27 billion contract with Embraer, to ferry VVIPs around the country and abroad. Under the latest deal, Embraer will modify its EMB-145 regional jet aircraft to carry two types (S-band and L-band) of Active Array Antenna Units (AAAU), developed by the CABS, on the aircraft’s fuselage.

The AEW & CS’ roof-mounted S-band pulse-Doppler active phased-array radar—being developed by the DRDO’s Electronics R & D establishment (LRDE)--will operate within the 2GHz to 4GHz bandwidth. The 8 metre-long, 900kg antenna (using 1,280 phase shifters) will be mounted on the upper dorsal spine of the aircraft’s fuselage. The radar’s dorsal unit (DU) will include the carbon-fibre radome, antenna array, RF distribution network, and 192 transmit/receive modules that will be cooled by ram-air. Each such module will comprise a power amplifier for the transmitted microwave signal, low-noise amplifiers as front-ends for the receiver channels, and phase shifters for accurate control of the signal phase in both transmit and receive modes. The AESA radar will provide 270-degree airspace surveillance coverage and have an instrumental range of 450km and detection range of 350km in a dense hostile electronic warfare environment. For detecting hostile airborne aircraft, two mean antenna scan rates of 12 degrees/second or 3 degrees/second will be used, while a scan rate of 3 degrees/second will be used for detecting terrain-hugging or sea-skimming cruise missiles. Warships will be detected using a low-PRF without Doppler filtering. An adaptive radar control mode will control beam scheduling to share the total available time between search, confirmation of detections, and track updates.

The avionics suite will also include an L-band IFF transponder, as well as twin side-mounted L-band AESA antenna arrays that will be capable of locating and tracking targets out to 240nm while the aircraft is cruising at an altitude of 40,000 feet. In addition, these arrays’ signals will be less attenuated by bad weather, and will not be restricted to narrow-beam operations.

:: TEMPUR OFFICIAL WEBSITE - English Section -3

 

[sancho]

P.S.

To refer to this one again, the left pic, shows the EMB 145 AWACS like it is available from Embraer itself, the right pic shows the EMB 145 DRDO AWACS, inclulding the airfame changes (refuelling probe, SATCOM, new radar array, additional side blisters for ESM) and that's what the brochure that I provided shows also (the graphic on the lower right showed the changes that the DRDO AWACS will have).

Are you prepared to admit you're wrong? The Indian AEW&C has two types of AESA radar. The S-Band radar is roof mounted, while the L-Band radar is side mounted.

Any more silly arguments?

When you have doubts about livefist, how can you take this site that only mixes reports from other blogs as reliable?

Here is the original article that Prasun K. Sengupta wrote on his blog:

TRISHUL: CABS’ AEW & CS Detailed

The AEW & CS’ S-band pulse-Doppler active phased-array radar will...provide 270-degree airspace surveillance coverage and have an instrumental range of 450km and detection range of 350km in a dense hostile electronic warfare environment. The radar’s optimum performance (with very low sidelobes) will be over the 120° azimuthal sectors on each side of the aircraft...

...The radar will also include an L-band IFF transponder. (fullstop!)

So besides that this article (the original) is just anther source that confirms no radar detection to the front and back areas, it shows the radar will include an L-band IFF transponder. The whole part about twin side-mounted L-band AESA antenna arrays in your source on the other side, is just added and was never mentioned in the original article!

Also interesting for you should be the part of the ESM suit:

Another component will be the ESM suite that will combine the radar warning receiver and countermeasures dispensers with interferometer antenna arrays, a missile approach warning system, laser warning system, defensive aids controller, and a display-cum-control unit.

This should explain why the blisters needs to have this big size, because it includes way more sensors, antennas and other parts, just as I told you before.

It's rather amazing how you proved yourself to be completely wrong about all your claims!

 

[dbc]

P.S.



To refer to this one again, the left pic, shows the EMB 145 AWACS like it is available from Embraer itself, the right pic shows the EMB 145 DRDO AWACS, inclulding the airfame changes (refuelling probe, SATCOM, new radar array, additional side blisters for ESM) and that's what the brochure that I provided shows also (the graphic on the lower right showed the changes that the DRDO AWACS will have).





When you have doubts about livefist, how can you take this site that only mixes reports from other blogs as reliable?

Here is the original article that Prasun K. Sengupta wrote on his blog:

TRISHUL: CABS’ AEW & CS Detailed



So besides that this article (the original) is just anther source that confirms no radar detection to the front and back areas, it shows the radar will include an L-band IFF transponder. The whole part about twin side-mounted L-band AESA antenna arrays in your source on the other side, is just added and was never mentioned in the original article!

Also interesting for you should be the part of the ESM suit:



This should explain why the blisters needs to have this big size, because it includes way more sensors, antennas and other parts, just as I told you before.

"Another component will be the ESM suite that will combine the radar warning receiver and countermeasures dispensers with interferometer antenna arrays, a missile approach warning system, laser warning system, defensive aids controller, and a display-cum-control unit."


It's rather amazing how you proved yourself to be completely wrong about all your claims!

Here is another source, that confirms the S Band roof mounted antenna and conformal side L Band array. And it just cracks me up that you think the side "blister" houses the interferometer array,MAWS and countermeasures dispensers. Placing a countermeasures dispensers in line with the aircrafts engine is a retarded notion just like your posts.

Have a nice life, its abundantly clear you wish to fester in your own ignorance.

:: TEMPUR OFFICIAL WEBSITE - English Section - Twist Of Fate

Written by Zuridan Bin Muhammad
Friday, 05 June 2009

The IAF is also encouraging the DRDO to devise indigenous AEW & CS solutions. It may be recalled that in a path-breaking development, Brazil and India on July 3 last year had inked a $210 million agreement to jointly develop an AEW & CS for the IAF. The agreement was signed by Dr S Christopher, Director, of the DRDO’s Bangalore-based Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS), and Luis Carlos Aguiar, Embraer’s Executive Vice President (Defence and Govt Markets), in the presence of Marco Brandao, Brazilian Ambassador to India, and M Natarajan, Scientific Adviser to India’s Defence Minister and Secretary, DRDO. India, incidentally, had earlier acquired five EMB-135BT ‘Legacy’ executive jets, under a Rs7.27 billion contract with Embraer, to ferry VVIPs around the country and abroad. Under the latest deal, Embraer will modify its EMB-145 regional jet aircraft to carry two types (S-band and L-band) of Active Array Antenna Units (AAAU), developed by the CABS, on the aircraft’s fuselage.

 

[sancho]

Here is another source

Not really, it is the same source, just a newer article but based on the same old points, but now integrates the second part of the Trishul article as well:

For self-protection, the AEW & CS will have on board a fully integrated defensive aids suite (housed within two outward protruding fuselage sections) that is now being co-developed by DARE and EADS Defence Electronics that will include multi-spectral optronic sensors and an ESM suite, designed for the protection of aircraft against infra-red/laser-guided MANPADS)...

Gongrats girl! Again your own source not only contradicts itself, but proves you to be wrong, because it confirms that the blisters will house the ESM suite with interferometric antennas and multispectral sensors as well. You simply had to read the whole article, to understand that.

And it just cracks me up that you think the side "blister" houses the interferometer array,MAWS and countermeasures dispensers. Placing a countermeasures dispensers in line with the aircrafts engine is a retarded notion just like your posts.

Read slowly and try to understand first before you run into your weird speculations again, because the Trishul article said:

This will in turn be fully integrated with wingtip-mounted lightweight chaff/flare countermeasures dispensing systems...
...the ESM suite that will combine the radar warning receiver and countermeasures dispensers with interferometer antenna arrays, a missile approach warning system, laser warning system, defensive aids controller, and a display-cum-control unit

So the ESM suit combines the antennas and sensors housed in the blisters, with the countermeasures dispensers on the wingtips!