M1 trials in Pakistan

[Dazzler]

Half-truths, bias and lack of evidence. Typical of critics.

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M1 series MBT can operate in all kinds of weather conditions. They are unlikely to fail an aerial temperate test.

It is capable of engaging the enemy in any weather, day or night on the multi-dimensional, non-linear battlefield using its firepower, manuever, and shock effect.

Source: M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank

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M1 series MBT can traverse through amphibious environments. However, water depth is to be considered; at a certain depth, some precautions are needed to protect sensitive parts of the MBT. Here is a demonstration:

The arrangements (shown in the aforementioned video) are not mandatory if water depth does not approaches engine exhaust. Here is pictorial evidence:

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However, I would like to point out a fact that MBT are generally not suitable for movements through marches and/or (wet) muddy environments. Incidents can happen in such terrain.

EXAMPLE 1: Below is a video of an M1A1 Abrams MBT getting stuck [in a ditch like area] in a (wet) muddy environment, but it manages to get out after some effort:

EXAMPLE 2: Below is a video of a T-90 series MBT getting stuck [in a ditch like area] of a (wet) muddy environment, but it is not able to get out on its own, and is towed out:

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As for possibility of a major tank battle in the fields and marches? NO.

MBT can get stuck in marches, irrespective of their weight class (Medium or Heavy); evidence provided above. Though, a powerful gas turbine engine can do wonders in tough situations as apparent from a video of an M1A1 Abrams MBT above.

Major Indian armored thrusts are expected to come through desert environments and plains that are suitable for swift movement of Indian armor. This is apparent from the pattern and nature of Indian military exercises in recent years.

Read a paper - Indian Military’s Cold Start Doctrine: Capabilities, Limitations and Possible Response from Pakistan.

If an offensive operation is expected through the fields and marches, Indian Army will use military assets that are suitable for movement in such terrain. You can learn about this from developments during 1971 war.

Your posts are getting quite hilarious really and it is apparent that you r a fanboy with little to no grasp of what an MBT actually is and what purpose it is meant to serve. In fact, sarge has you busted pretty bad, rather politely

 

[LeGenD]

Your posts are getting quite hilarious really and it is apparent that you r a fanboy with little to no grasp of what an MBT actually is and what purpose it is meant to serve. In fact, sarge has you busted pretty bad, rather politely

This is your counterargument?

Difference between me and the critics is that I argue on technical grounds and provide evidence to support my assertions but same cannot be said for critics that I have encountered in this thread so far.

Critics are like "I heard this and that and it must be true." They are just good at posting unsubstantiated claims, it seems. Very convincing.

I busted the myth that only M1A1 Abrams MBT can get stuck in a (wet) muddy environment [with video evidence] in my response to the relevant member and his post.

And I am preparing a response for some posts of the other member (Sarge). Rest assured, it will put an end to the nonsense of critics for good.

 

[Dazzler]

This is your counterargument?

Difference between me and the critics is that I argue on technical grounds and provide evidence to support my assertions but same cannot be said for critics that I have encountered in this thread so far.

Critics are like "I heard this and that and it must be true." They are just good at posting unsubstantiated claims, it seems. Very convincing.

I busted the myth that only M1A1 Abrams MBT can get stuck in a (wet) muddy environment [with video evidence] in my response to the relevant member and his post.

Also, I am preparing a response for the other member (Sarge). Rest assured, it will put an end to the nonsense of critics for good.

Sorry mate, being a witness to many things I am not at liberty to discuss stops me from sharing things.

The M1 had some serious issues not just in Pakistan but even in Saudi Arabia trials as well. Its gas turbine engine is only reliable as long as you carry a spare one in the loop. The Saudis were even outraged on inferior armour and vetronics package initially but the Yankees know how to please them and they did so.

Also, do you know which mbts recently failed in bahawalpur desert trials? Its a hint of how difficult a terrain it is to operate an MBT.


Lastly, the M1 missed several targets, had two engines overheated within a 200 km desert run, and the optics failed repeatedly. The army brass was pretty disappointed in its performance to be precise as they had high hopes from Yankee gadgets.

 

[LeGenD]

Sorry mate, being a witness to many things I am not at liberty to discuss stops me from sharing things.

What is the reason? Are the professionals prosecuted for sharing information?

The M1 had some serious issues not just in Pakistan but even in Saudi Arabia trials as well. Its gas turbine engine is only reliable as long as you carry a spare one in the loop. The Saudis were even outraged on inferior armour and vetronics package initially but the Yankees know how to please them and they did so.

Saudi Arabia was not in a hurry; it spent years evaluating different types of MBT before selecting a winner among the competing products. Saudi Arabia selected the original M1A2 Abrams MBT after a lengthy evaluation process. No such thing as Yankees know how to please them.

Point is that you don't just give up after a single trail event. You grant competitors sufficient time to address potential shortcomings in their products and polish them before you pick one. Choosing the right product takes time and thorough deliberation.

As for the armor, export version of an M1 series MBT is equipped with the standard composite armor package. The relatively tougher depleted uranium armor package is for MBT in the service of US armed forces only; it is not for export.

---

Sand ingestion was identified as a shortcoming of the AGT-1500 gas turbine engine during its trials in the desert environments but this shortcoming have been addressed with the development and implementation of air filters in it. Maintenance requirement of these air filters is that they should be cleaned after hours of operations in a desert environment [manageable]. Later on, (self-cleaning) air filters have been introduced. These Air filters minimized the need to carry another engine (for backup) during military operations.

---

The M1 series MBT were originally equipped with the AGT-1500 gas turbine engine. However, AGT-1500 is being phased out and replaced by the newer and more robust LV 100-5 gas turbine engine in current times.

LV 100-5 Gas Turbine

The LV 100-5 gas turbine engine has been designed to replace to AGT 1500 turbine. In its time, the AGT 1500 turbine was the best out there. Currently, they are far too expensive to use and maintain. Production of the AGT 1500 turbine ended in 1992 due to those reasons.

The LV 100-5 gas turbine was designed in 1990’s, with production beginning in 2003. The idea was to make a more cost efficient, reliable, and lighter engine, while still offering 1500 hp.

Source: Military Tanks | Engaged in Thermodynamics

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More importantly, there is no such thing as a perfect engine. You think that diesel engines do not have shortcomings?

A diesel engine is relatively heavier, noisier, more maintenance-intensive, more vulnerable to harsh environmental conditions then a gas turbine engine. A diesel engine is also not fuel flexible like a gas turbine engine.

US have extensively tested both types of engines and found none to have a significant advantage over the other. In the end, budget and preferences dictate a choice.

Also, do you know which mbts recently failed in bahawalpur desert trials? Its a hint of how difficult a terrain it is to operate an MBT.

Ukranian T-84 Oplot-M? It have a diesel engine, right?

Lastly, the M1 missed several targets, had two engines overheated within a 200 km desert run, and the optics failed repeatedly. The army brass was pretty disappointed in its performance to be precise as they had high hopes from Yankee gadgets.

1. The "missed several targets" part:

Even a state-of-the-art machine won't produce good results if its operators are incompetent and/or not familiar with its mechanics and maintenance requirements. It is unclear who manned the M1A1 Abrams MBT unit during its trials in Bahawalpur.

---

M1A1 and M1A2 Abrams MBT are (technically) designed to be highly accurate in the matters of target acquisition and engagement. Technical data affirms this and I can share it with you if you are interested.

During combat situations; M1 series MBT have successfully struck (moving) targets from distances in excess of 2000 m [during poor visibility conditions]. Moreover, recent technological enhancements have significantly increased the real-time target engagement capacity of M1A1 and M1A2 models; these newer configurations are known as M1A1D and M1A2 SEP V3.

M1A1D and M1A2 SEP V3 configurations represent the epitome of excellence in MBT design and capabilities but their technicalities are largely classified and these configurations are meant for US armed forces only. All (legacy) M1A1 and M1A2 models are to be converted to M1A1D and M1A2 SEP V3 standards with passage of time to meet the challenges of the near future.

Only Australia have received M1A1 Abrams (AIM) MBT which is equivalent of M1A1D in the inventory of US armed forces.

2. The "engines overheated" part:

The climatic and geographical conditions of Cholistan desert are harsh but this is true for any major desert environment in the world. In the Cholistan desert, temperatures commonly approach 120 F during the summer season but nights are generally comfortable.

FYI: There is a region in US that is known as Death Valley; temperatures can approach 140 F during the summer season in this region. This region have one of the harshest climatic and geographical conditions in the world and few people have the will to inhabit it. However, its views may deceive you.

---

M1 series MBT can successfully operate in all kinds of weather conditions in the world. Documented records affirm this.

During combat situations; M1A1 Abrams MBT and M1A2 Abrams MBT have endured harsh climatic and environmental conditions (including sandstorms). Sometimes, climatic and environmental conditions were so harsh that they would halt air-based assaults and ground units had to do without them.

For example, the (famous) Battle of 73 Easting took place during sandstorm conditions:

By contrast, U.S. troops fought extremely well. At 73 Easting, for example, the 2nd ACR maintained a tight, efficient combat formation throughout an extended approach march, and did so in the midst of a sandstorm, in hostile territory, over unfamiliar terrain, and without significant losses to mechanical breakdown or logistical failure en route. Its crews' gunnery was exceptional, outperforming peacetime proving ground standards for both the M1 and the Bradley. The first three kills by Eagle troop were recorded in three shots by a single M1 over an interval of less than ten seconds. As a whole, 182 of 215, or 85 percent, of the shots fired by 2nd ACR crews struck their targets at ranges of up to 2000 meters, under combat conditions.(76) Similar results were obtained by U.S. forces throughout the KTO.

Source: Victory Misunderstood: What the Gulf War Tells Us About the Future of Conflict - The RMA Debate

Sandstorms that occur in Iraq are notorious for their intensity. Have a look:

3. The "optics failed" part:

I don't know much about the temperature tolerance capacity of the optics of the M1 series MBT but they are unlikely to malfunction during harsh climatic and environmental conditions. Otherwise, this shortcoming would have disastrous consequences for the M1 series MBT during combat situations.

SOP is that a user manual is issued to the crew of M1 series MBT (by the authorities) that contains instructions for maintenance of the on-board equipment of M1 series MBT during various environmental conditions. Here is an example: http://asktop.net/wp/download/GTA43-01-008.pdf

------

Now, coming towards the revelations of the trails in Bahawalpur:-

If the crew was Pakistani, it may have faltered due to lack of familiarity, training and understanding of the internal mechanics of the MBT in question. Moreover, if the optics malfunctioned, then this could have further hindered the ability of the crew to achieve good results with the MBT in question. Finally, if the engine was not equipped with the recommended safeguards, then this might have caused breakdowns. This is what I gather from your account.

I get the impression that US was being careless about potential shortcomings of its product or deliberate. Moreover, political issues might have prevented additional trials. Steven Zaloga revealed that US backed out from the deal due to political disagreements.

However, I would caution fellow Pakistani from jumping to conclusions about the quality of M1 series MBT on the basis of this single event. Available evidence suggests that M1 series MBT are a success story. Whatever issues existed at one time, they have been addressed.

Here is a good summary:

Although fielded in 1980, the Abrams remained untested for over 10 years. When Iraq invaded Kuwait many critiques of the high production cost of the Abrams predicted that America's "supertank" would fall victim to the sand and long months of continuous operation without the luxury of peacetime maintenance facilities. They doubted the combat survivability of the extensive turret electronics. They would soon be proven wrong.

Immediately following President Bush's decision to commit U.S. forces to the Gulf region in defense of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, American armored units began the difficult process of relocating to the threatened area. Due to the shear size and weight of the Abrams, the C-5 Galaxy, the largest cargo aircraft in the U.S. Air Force inventory, was only able to handle one tank at a time. This meant that nearly all of the Abrams tanks deployed in the Gulf War were shipped by cargo ship. Although slow in coming, the arrival of the Abrams was much welcomed by Allied forces, as it is capable of defeating any tank in the Iraqi inventory.

The Iraqi Army had a considerable array of tanks, mostly purchased from the former Soviet Union. Chief among these were about 500 T-72's. These modern Soviet tanks were armed with an excellent 125mm smoothbore weapon and had many of the same advanced features found on the Abrams.

Despite it's advanced design, the T-72 proved to be inferior to the M1A1's deployed during the Gulf War, and compared more closely with the older M60A3 tanks used there by the U.S. Marine Corps. In addition, Iraq had a number of earlier Soviet models: perhaps as many as 1,600 T-62 and about 700 T-54, both of which were developed in the 1960's. These tanks were widely regarded as clearly inferior to the Abrams, but were expected to be highly reliable mechanically. Of course, our allies each brought to the fray their own tanks: the British Challenger and the German Leopard are two superb examples of state-of-the-art armor technology. All in all, the Gulf War provided military tacticians with an opportunity to evaluate developments in tank design that had not been available since World War II.

For months, the American Army had practiced, patrolled and maneuvered in their Abrams tanks, putting thousands of miles and hundreds of hours into their machines. So far they had performed admirably. In fact, in many units, equipment downtime was actually lower that it had been state-side! As diplomatic options failed, one by one, and tensions mounted, it became clear that the real test of this vehicle was finally at hand.

In his book "Desert Victory - The War for Kuwait", author Norman Friedman writes that "The U.S. Army in Saudi Arabia probably had about 1,900 M1A1 tanks. Its ability to fire reliably when moving at speed over rough ground (because of the stabilized gun mount) gave it a capability that proved valuable in the Gulf. The Abrams tank also has… vision devices that proved effective not only at night, but also in the dust and smoke of Kuwaiti daytime. On average, an Abrams outranged an Iraqi tank by about 1,000 meters." The actual numbers of Abrams M1 and M1A1 tanks deployed to the Gulf War (according to official DOD sources) are as follows: A total of 1,848 M1A1 and M1A1 "Heavy Armor" (or HA) tanks were deployed between the U.S. Army and Marine Corp (who fielded 16 M1A1's and 60 M1A1(HA) tanks).

As the Gulf War shifted pace from Operation Desert Shield to Operation Desert Storm, and the preparatory bombardment lifted, U.S. Abrams tanks spearheaded the attack on Iraqi fortifications and engaged enemy tanks whenever and wherever possible.

Just as they had done in the Iran-Iraq War, the Iraqi Army used it's tanks as fixed anti-tank and artillery pieces, digging them into the ground to reduce target signature. However, this also prevented their quick movement and Allied air power smashed nearly 50% of Iraq's tank threat before Allied armor had moved across the border. After that the Abrams tanks quickly destroyed a number of Iraqi tanks that did manage to go mobile.

The Abrams now began to prove that American dollars had been well spent. Reports indicated that it's thermal sights were unhampered by the clouds of thick black smoke over the battlefield that were the result of burning Kuwaiti oil wells. In fact many Gunners relied on their "night" sights in full daylight. Such was not the case with the sights in the Iraqi tanks, which were being hit from units they could not even see. Concerns about the M1A1's range were eliminated by a massive resupply operation that will be studied for years as a model of tactical efficiency.

During the Gulf War only 18 Abrams tanks were taken out of service due to battle damage: nine were permanent losses, and another nine suffered repairable damage, mostly from mines. Not a single Abrams crewman was lost in the conflict. There were few reports of mechanical failure. U.S. armor commanders maintained an unprecedented 90% operational readiness for their Abrams Main Battle Tanks.

As it turned out the Abrams was money well spent.

Source: Washington National Guard - Army Guard - The M1A1 Abrams Main Battle Tank

 

[Dazzler]

What is the reason? Are the professionals prosecuted for sharing information?


Saudi Arabia was not in a hurry; it spent years evaluating different types of MBT before selecting a winner among the competing products. Saudi Arabia selected the original M1A2 Abrams MBT after a lengthy evaluation process. No such thing as Yankees know how to please them.

Point is that you don't just give up after a single trail event. You grant competitors sufficient time to address potential shortcomings in their products and polish them before you pick one. Choosing the right product takes time and thorough deliberation.

As for the armor, export version of an M1 series MBT is equipped with the standard composite armor package. The relatively tougher depleted uranium armor package is for MBT in the service of US armed forces only; it is not for export.

---

Sand ingestion was identified as a shortcoming of the AGT-1500 gas turbine engine during its trials in the desert environments but this shortcoming have been addressed with the development and implementation of air filters in it. Maintenance requirement of these air filters is that they should be cleaned after hours of operations in a desert environment [manageable]. Later on, (self-cleaning) air filters have been introduced. These Air filters minimized the need to carry another engine (for backup) during military operations.

---

The M1 series MBT were originally equipped with the AGT-1500 gas turbine engine. However, AGT-1500 is being phased out and replaced by the newer and more robust LV 100-5 gas turbine engine in current times.

LV 100-5 Gas Turbine

The LV 100-5 gas turbine engine has been designed to replace to AGT 1500 turbine. In its time, the AGT 1500 turbine was the best out there. Currently, they are far too expensive to use and maintain. Production of the AGT 1500 turbine ended in 1992 due to those reasons.

The LV 100-5 gas turbine was designed in 1990’s, with production beginning in 2003. The idea was to make a more cost efficient, reliable, and lighter engine, while still offering 1500 hp.

Source: Military Tanks | Engaged in Thermodynamics

---

More importantly, there is no such thing as a perfect engine. You think that diesel engines do not have shortcomings?

A diesel engine is relatively heavier, noisier, more maintenance-intensive, more vulnerable to harsh environmental conditions then a gas turbine engine. A diesel engine is also not fuel flexible like a gas turbine engine.

US have extensively tested both types of engines and found none to have a significant advantage over the other. In the end, budget and preferences dictate a choice.


Ukranian T-84 Oplot-M? It have a diesel engine, right?


1. The "missed several targets" part:

Even a state-of-the-art machine won't produce good results if its operators are incompetent and/or not familiar with its mechanics and maintenance requirements. It is unclear who manned the M1A1 Abrams MBT unit during its trials in Bahawalpur.

---

M1A1 and M1A2 Abrams MBT are (technically) designed to be highly accurate in the matters of target acquisition and engagement. Technical data affirms this and I can share it with you if you are interested.

During combat situations; M1 series MBT have successfully struck (moving) targets from distances in excess of 2000 m [during poor visibility conditions]. Moreover, recent technological enhancements have significantly increased the real-time target engagement capacity of M1A1 and M1A2 models; these newer configurations are known as M1A1D and M1A2 SEP V3.

M1A1D and M1A2 SEP V3 configurations represent the epitome of excellence in MBT design and capabilities but their technicalities are largely classified and these configurations are meant for US armed forces only. All (legacy) M1A1 and M1A2 models are to be converted to M1A1D and M1A2 SEP V3 standards with passage of time to meet the challenges of the near future.

Only Australia have received M1A1 Abrams (AIM) MBT which is equivalent of M1A1D in the inventory of US armed forces.

2. The "engines overheated" part:

The climatic and geographical conditions of Cholistan desert are harsh but this is true for any major desert environment in the world. In the Cholistan desert, temperatures commonly approach 120 F during the summer season but nights are generally comfortable.

FYI: There is a region in US that is known as Death Valley; temperatures can approach 140 F during the summer season in this region. This region have one of the harshest climatic and geographical conditions in the world and few people have the will to inhabit it. However, its views may deceive you.

---

M1 series MBT can successfully operate in all kinds of weather conditions in the world. Documented records affirm this.

During combat situations; M1A1 Abrams MBT and M1A2 Abrams MBT have endured harsh climatic and environmental conditions (including sandstorms). Sometimes, climatic and environmental conditions were so harsh that they would halt air-based assaults and ground units had to do without them.

For example, the (famous) Battle of 73 Easting took place during sandstorm conditions:

By contrast, U.S. troops fought extremely well. At 73 Easting, for example, the 2nd ACR maintained a tight, efficient combat formation throughout an extended approach march, and did so in the midst of a sandstorm, in hostile territory, over unfamiliar terrain, and without significant losses to mechanical breakdown or logistical failure en route. Its crews' gunnery was exceptional, outperforming peacetime proving ground standards for both the M1 and the Bradley. The first three kills by Eagle troop were recorded in three shots by a single M1 over an interval of less than ten seconds. As a whole, 182 of 215, or 85 percent, of the shots fired by 2nd ACR crews struck their targets at ranges of up to 2000 meters, under combat conditions.(76) Similar results were obtained by U.S. forces throughout the KTO.

Source: Victory Misunderstood: What the Gulf War Tells Us About the Future of Conflict - The RMA Debate

Sandstorms that occur in Iraq are notorious for their intensity. Have a look:

3. The "optics failed" part:

I don't know much about the temperature tolerance capacity of the optics of the M1 series MBT but they are unlikely to malfunction during harsh climatic and environmental conditions. Otherwise, this shortcoming would have disastrous consequences for the M1 series MBT during combat situations.

SOP is that a user manual is issued to the crew of M1 series MBT (by the authorities) that contains instructions for maintenance of the on-board equipment of M1 series MBT during various environmental conditions. Here is an example: http://asktop.net/wp/download/GTA43-01-008.pdf

------

Now, coming towards the revelations of the trails in Bahawalpur:-

If the crew was Pakistani, it may have faltered due to lack of familiarity, training and understanding of the internal mechanics of the MBT in question. Moreover, if the optics malfunctioned, then this could have further hindered the ability of the crew to achieve good results with the MBT in question. Finally, if the engine was not equipped with the recommended safeguards, then this might have caused breakdowns. This is what I gather from your account.

I get the impression that US was being careless about potential shortcomings of its product or deliberate. Moreover, political issues might have prevented additional trials. Steven Zaloga revealed that US backed out from the deal due to political disagreements.

However, I would caution fellow Pakistani from jumping to conclusions about the quality of M1 series MBT on the basis of this single event. Available evidence suggests that M1 series MBT are a success story. Whatever issues existed at one time, they have been addressed.

Here is a good summary:

Although fielded in 1980, the Abrams remained untested for over 10 years. When Iraq invaded Kuwait many critiques of the high production cost of the Abrams predicted that America's "supertank" would fall victim to the sand and long months of continuous operation without the luxury of peacetime maintenance facilities. They doubted the combat survivability of the extensive turret electronics. They would soon be proven wrong.

Immediately following President Bush's decision to commit U.S. forces to the Gulf region in defense of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, American armored units began the difficult process of relocating to the threatened area. Due to the shear size and weight of the Abrams, the C-5 Galaxy, the largest cargo aircraft in the U.S. Air Force inventory, was only able to handle one tank at a time. This meant that nearly all of the Abrams tanks deployed in the Gulf War were shipped by cargo ship. Although slow in coming, the arrival of the Abrams was much welcomed by Allied forces, as it is capable of defeating any tank in the Iraqi inventory.

The Iraqi Army had a considerable array of tanks, mostly purchased from the former Soviet Union. Chief among these were about 500 T-72's. These modern Soviet tanks were armed with an excellent 125mm smoothbore weapon and had many of the same advanced features found on the Abrams.

Despite it's advanced design, the T-72 proved to be inferior to the M1A1's deployed during the Gulf War, and compared more closely with the older M60A3 tanks used there by the U.S. Marine Corps. In addition, Iraq had a number of earlier Soviet models: perhaps as many as 1,600 T-62 and about 700 T-54, both of which were developed in the 1960's. These tanks were widely regarded as clearly inferior to the Abrams, but were expected to be highly reliable mechanically. Of course, our allies each brought to the fray their own tanks: the British Challenger and the German Leopard are two superb examples of state-of-the-art armor technology. All in all, the Gulf War provided military tacticians with an opportunity to evaluate developments in tank design that had not been available since World War II.

For months, the American Army had practiced, patrolled and maneuvered in their Abrams tanks, putting thousands of miles and hundreds of hours into their machines. So far they had performed admirably. In fact, in many units, equipment downtime was actually lower that it had been state-side! As diplomatic options failed, one by one, and tensions mounted, it became clear that the real test of this vehicle was finally at hand.

In his book "Desert Victory - The War for Kuwait", author Norman Friedman writes that "The U.S. Army in Saudi Arabia probably had about 1,900 M1A1 tanks. Its ability to fire reliably when moving at speed over rough ground (because of the stabilized gun mount) gave it a capability that proved valuable in the Gulf. The Abrams tank also has… vision devices that proved effective not only at night, but also in the dust and smoke of Kuwaiti daytime. On average, an Abrams outranged an Iraqi tank by about 1,000 meters." The actual numbers of Abrams M1 and M1A1 tanks deployed to the Gulf War (according to official DOD sources) are as follows: A total of 1,848 M1A1 and M1A1 "Heavy Armor" (or HA) tanks were deployed between the U.S. Army and Marine Corp (who fielded 16 M1A1's and 60 M1A1(HA) tanks).

As the Gulf War shifted pace from Operation Desert Shield to Operation Desert Storm, and the preparatory bombardment lifted, U.S. Abrams tanks spearheaded the attack on Iraqi fortifications and engaged enemy tanks whenever and wherever possible.

Just as they had done in the Iran-Iraq War, the Iraqi Army used it's tanks as fixed anti-tank and artillery pieces, digging them into the ground to reduce target signature. However, this also prevented their quick movement and Allied air power smashed nearly 50% of Iraq's tank threat before Allied armor had moved across the border. After that the Abrams tanks quickly destroyed a number of Iraqi tanks that did manage to go mobile.

The Abrams now began to prove that American dollars had been well spent. Reports indicated that it's thermal sights were unhampered by the clouds of thick black smoke over the battlefield that were the result of burning Kuwaiti oil wells. In fact many Gunners relied on their "night" sights in full daylight. Such was not the case with the sights in the Iraqi tanks, which were being hit from units they could not even see. Concerns about the M1A1's range were eliminated by a massive resupply operation that will be studied for years as a model of tactical efficiency.

During the Gulf War only 18 Abrams tanks were taken out of service due to battle damage: nine were permanent losses, and another nine suffered repairable damage, mostly from mines. Not a single Abrams crewman was lost in the conflict. There were few reports of mechanical failure. U.S. armor commanders maintained an unprecedented 90% operational readiness for their Abrams Main Battle Tanks.

As it turned out the Abrams was money well spent.

Source: Washington National Guard - Army Guard - The M1A1 Abrams Main Battle Tank

Firstly, I m so willing to bet my last dime that u r Damian and a false flagger.

Secondly, every desert in the world, no matter how similar they look, have different dynamics such as sand grain size, wind speed and others. Ask any geologist and he'll tell u this. Thar has very fne sand grains and is known n to kill tanks pretty swiftly but that's another story.
Your entire rhetoric cannot change the historic fact that testing M1A1 was a fiasco.

Even after general dynamics land systems came with a much more attractive package with slashed prices from original $5 million to a revised $4.2 million pop and a separate facility to be made at Heavy mechanical complex, now heavy industries taxila, but the army refused the offer.

As I said, u r a fanboy nothing more and you'll go to any stretch to prove your M1 is the mightiest thing on earth, the reality is otherwise.

Regarding oplot and vt-4 episode, you missed a simple fact that the thar desert region thrusts a big toll over any MBT operated there.

However, the AGT 1500 engine was a sheer gas guzzler, and heated so many times that it wasnt even funny. It needed consistent field support and logistics as it was too sensitibe and had average filters that were to be changed after each 500km ride, even more so than its Russian counterpart installed in the t-80, the gtd-1250 gas turbine. In either case, the M1A1 made a case against itself in big way at least in Pakistan.

Lastly, since zaloga wouldn't tell u this, Zia was pretty furious over these trials, so was aslam beg and others.

 

[LeGenD]

Firstly, I m so willing to bet my last dime that u r Damian and a false flagger.

Your accusations are baseless. I am not a member of any Indian community, period.

I will address your other points tomorrow.

 

[Dazzler]

Your accusations are baseless. I am not a member of any Indian community, period.

I will address your other points tomorrow.

Try harder next time mate, I have been around for years on forums that helps me smell familiar tones

 

[LeGenD]

Try harder next time mate, I have been around for years on forums that helps me smell familiar tones

Since when Indians and/or foreigners have been using PTCL? Your assessment skills are still lacking.

Pakistani hone ka yeh matlab nahin hai kay Nationalism ki wajah sei ground realities ko ignore kar doon.

 

[LeGenD]

Secondly, every desert in the world, no matter how similar they look, have different dynamics such as sand grain size, wind speed and others. Ask any geologist and he'll tell u this. Thar has very fne sand grains and is known n to kill tanks pretty swiftly but that's another story.

The mighty Arabian desert is not a pleasant environment either; it contains sand (fine like talcum powder) that creeps in to virtually anything, causing significant problems in the equipment and significantly increasing their maintenance requirements as a consequence. Without adequate maintenance, the sand will harm the equipment.

The desert here is covered in fine, powdery sand almost like talcum powder.

Source: Generation Kill: Evan Wright: 9780425224748: Amazon.com: Books

--The hot, dry wind sweeps from southern Iraq across the Saudi peninsula. Forecasters can predict its onset only three days before it arrives. --Winds travel up to 45 m.p.h. and can carve a path 60 miles long and 100 miles wide. In worst-case conditions, the storm can generate a wall of flying sand up to 14,000 feet high. -- Shamals usually arrive in March and April, but an unusually warm and dry December may mean that they'll show up early. --Stinging sand, as fine as talcum powder, can clog air filters, overheat the engines on military vehicles and aircraft, scratch and erode rotor blades and other moving parts, and jam sensitive weaponry. Static electricity from the storms can also interfere with radio communications, making it tricky to coordinate ground forces. --Visibility in some storms is reduced to as little as a sixteenth of a mile, making accurate targeting of Iraq's troops extremely difficult. --The dry winds are physically hard on the troops. Besides being nearly blinding, they sear the mucus passages of the eyes, nose and throat. --Even without shamal conditions, dust storms on a smaller scale are a daily problem. Any wind in such an arid, treeless terrain can fill the air with sand and dust. The Shamal wind: The wind funnels down from the northwest, starting around the Turkish-Iraqi border and ending near the northern part of the Persian Gulf. A high-pressure system forms over the Black Sea and Turkey, causing the winds to blow in a clockwise direction. The pressure funnels the warmer, dry winds downward, blowing sand and dust and creating a shamal. A low-pressure system over the Pakistan area with counterclockwise winds helps to trap the dusty flow.

Source: Bracing For Dust Storms - latimes

One year after operations in Panama, nearly half of the Apache's force was deployed to Saudi Arabia in response to Iraq's August 1990 invasion of neighboring Kuwait. In all, 273 AH-64As were positioned along the Saudi frontier in the following months. Initial difficulties adapting the Apache to the desert environment caused some concern for military planners, as well as a great deal of consternation to crews and maintenance personnel. The talc-fine sand synonymous with this region tended to get inside the helicopter itself, causing serious problems with the auxiliary power units and components of the ever-essential air-conditioning systems.

Source: AH-64 Apache Units of Operations Enduring Freedom & Iraqi Freedom - Osprey Publishing

Here is an account of experiences of troops in the harsh conditions of the Arabian desert:

Several weeks later, the military brought in hundreds of pigeons and chickens, which they placed in cages between the tents to serve as early-warning detectors for gas attacks, as coal miners have used them from centuries. But the desert dust overwhelmed the bird's fragile respiratory system, killing nearly all of them. The only fauna thriving here are the rats that live under the plywood floorboards of the tents and come out at night to scamper around the slumbering marines.

Every twenty-four hours the temperature fluctuates by up to fifty degrees, with frigid nights in the upper thirties turning in to blazing days in the upper eighties. Throughout the day you are either shivering or sweating. The sun is so intense that steel objects, such as machine-gun barrels, when left out in it for any period of time, become so hot they can be picked up only by towels like oven mitts.

By early March the desert sandstorms known as "shamals" have begun. Shamal winds gust at up to fifty miles an hour, sometimes blowing over the twenty-meter-long platoon tents marines sleep in, shredding apart the canvas and burying them in several feet of sand. It's no wonder the chickens couldn't hack it. The Marines who've been here for weeks have runny noses and inflamed eyes from the constant dust. A lot of them walk around with rags wrapped around their faces to keep the dust out, but it doesn't seem to do any good. Several develop walking pneumonia even before the invasion begins.

Source: Generation Kill: Evan Wright: 9780425224748: Amazon.com: Books

----

Now, tell me about the sand found in the Thar desert. What is so special about it?

Your entire rhetoric cannot change the historic fact that testing M1A1 was a fiasco.

You want me to judge the quality of an MBT on the basis of a [one-sided] story of a single event?

If the M1 series MBT had some shortcomings back then, they have been addressed. This is apparent from the documented evidence of excellent performance of M1A1 Abrams MBT during the Persian Gulf War (1991). FYI, much of this war took place in the mighty Arabian desert.

During the extensive military use/testing, multiple issues were uncovered and fixed – usually, these were connected to the actual use of the vehicles, not being significant design flaws per se. The vehicle was also criticized at first by the public but the crew and unit commanders were actually quite happy with it. It was a solid, useful battle tank and that was what they actually wanted from the start.

Source: M1 Abrams: The Whispering Death - Part 2 | Armored Warfare - Official Website

Moreover, the M1 series MBT were originally equipped with the AGT-1500 gas turbine engine. This engine is also being phased out; replaced by the newer and more robust LV 100-5 gas turbine engine:

The LV 100-5 gas turbine engine has been designed to replace to AGT 1500 turbine. In its time, the AGT 1500 turbine was the best out there. Currently, they are far too expensive to use and maintain. Production of the AGT 1500 turbine ended in 1992 due to those reasons.

The LV 100-5 gas turbine was designed in 1990’s, with production beginning in 2003. The idea was to make a more cost efficient, reliable, and lighter engine, while still offering 1500 hp.

Source: Military Tanks | Engaged in Thermodynamics

LV 100-5 gas turbine engine passed the trials during 2002 and was ready for use in 2003. This engine is not just more reliable but also 50% more fuel efficient then the earlier AGT-1500 gas turbine engine.

So I am not sure why you (and some others) are still stuck in the past.

Even after general dynamics land systems came with a much more attractive package with slashed prices from original $5 million to a revised $4.2 million pop and a separate facility to be made at Heavy mechanical complex, now heavy industries taxila, but the army refused the offer.

This discount package was being negotiated as part of the deal that was supposed to occur between US and Pakistan under the leadership of Zia-ul-Haq. However, an accident that resulted in the deaths of Zia-ul-Haq and 2 senior American officials, complicated the situation. On top of everything, Mirza Aslam Beg (who replaced Zia-ul-Haq as the COAS of Pakistan) wasn't fond of US. According to the Americans, he was unpredictable and unreliable.

I am inclined to agree with Steven Zaloga that political disputes between US and Pakistan led to cancellation of the deal. Anti-American stance of Mirza Aslam Beg was not an encouraging development for the Americans after the death of Zia-ul-Haq.

Mirza Aslam Beg also predicted defeat of US during the Persian Gulf War (1991). It wouldn't surprise me if the report of abysmal performance of the M1A1 Abrams MBT during its trials in Pakistan has been made under his leadership. .

As I said, u r a fanboy nothing more and you'll go to any stretch to prove your M1 is the mightiest thing on earth, the reality is otherwise.

I am not in the habit of making tall claims about stuff, irrespective of my liking. My profession encourages me to strive for truth and rely upon evidence to formulate an assessment. Unfortunately, many individuals do not understand the importance of evidence and are stuck in the past due to shortsightedness.

Like it or not, M1 series MBT are a success story. They are evolving.

US have the budget and resources to develop the most advanced and capable weapons in the world; US is already experimenting with futuristic technologies [in secrecy] and will field them one day. You doubt this?

At present, M1A2 SEP V3 Abrams MBT (with TUSK II) is the most advanced MBT in the arsenal of NATO. It is the culmination of over 30 years of history of experiences acquired from the use of M1 series MBT across the world.

The M1A2 SEP V3 (with TUSK II) is a marvel of engineering and designed to maintain over-match against the challenges expected in the near future. Much of its technical details are classified but what is known is an eye-opener.

----

The legacy M1A1 model is also being upgraded to advanced M1A1D specifications to enable it to maintain over-match against the latest challenges.

Regarding oplot and vt-4 episode, you missed a simple fact that the thar desert region thrusts a big toll over any MBT operated there.

FYI: The mighty Arabian desert does the same.

US manages to keep its military equipment in good shape in spite of extensively using them in desert and/or harsh environmental conditions due to excellent maintenance practices. About 50% of the budget is spent on the maintenance of the equipment.

More importantly, US have learned a lot from the experiences of operating / testing its MBT in desert environments of different countries [up till now] and its newest MBT designs are much better then the designs of 1980s.

However, the AGT 1500 engine was a sheer gas guzzler, and heated so many times that it wasnt even funny. It needed consistent field support and logistics as it was too sensitibe and had average filters that were to be changed after each 500km ride, even more so than its Russian counterpart installed in the t-80, the gtd-1250 gas turbine. In either case, the M1A1 made a case against itself in big way at least in Pakistan.

Lastly, since zaloga wouldn't tell u this, Zia was pretty furious over these trials, so was aslam beg and others.

Covered above.

AGT-1500 engine gas turbine is obsolete and no longer in use.

 

[ssethii]

^^I am facing trouble even scrolling through your messages, who in their right mind would try to read them.

 

[HAIDER]

Sorry mate, being a witness to many things I am not at liberty to discuss stops me from sharing things.

The M1 had some serious issues not just in Pakistan but even in Saudi Arabia trials as well. Its gas turbine engine is only reliable as long as you carry a spare one in the loop. The Saudis were even outraged on inferior armour and vetronics package initially but the Yankees know how to please them and they did so.

Also, do you know which mbts recently failed in bahawalpur desert trials? Its a hint of how difficult a terrain it is to operate an MBT.


Lastly, the M1 missed several targets, had two engines overheated within a 200 km desert run, and the optics failed repeatedly. The army brass was pretty disappointed in its performance to be precise as they had high hopes from Yankee gadgets.

Check Suadi army attack on Yemen, seen no M1 tanks , only modified M48 or if am not wrong M60s and APCs.

 

[LeGenD]

^^I am facing trouble even scrolling through your messages, who in their right mind would try to read them.

They are for individuals with a certain IQ level. No offense.

 

[C130]

M1 is a beast, but in hindsight a Leopard 2A6 is just as good if not better especially if you got the downgraded M1A1M

Sauds want to buy a 1,000 Leopard 2A7s

but even the most advance tank is useless with an incompetent tank crew

 

[LeGenD]

Check Suadi army attack on Yemen, seen no M1 tanks , only modified M48 or if am not wrong M60s and APCs.

Saudi Arabia haven't fought a war independently for a long time. It needs to learn tactics and gain experience of its own the hard way.

At present, it is not recommended for Saudi Arabia to use its best hardware on the ground. Loss of expensive vehicles wouldn't be a morale booster.

Iraqi armed forces are using M1A1 Abrams MBT against ISIS however.

 

[Dazzler]

The mighty Arabian desert is not a pleasant environment either; it contains sand (fine like talcum powder) that creeps in to virtually anything, causing significant problems in the equipment and significantly increasing their maintenance requirements as a consequence. Without adequate maintenance, the sand will harm the equipment.

The desert here is covered in fine, powdery sand almost like talcum powder.

Source: Generation Kill: Evan Wright: 9780425224748: Amazon.com: Books

--The hot, dry wind sweeps from southern Iraq across the Saudi peninsula. Forecasters can predict its onset only three days before it arrives. --Winds travel up to 45 m.p.h. and can carve a path 60 miles long and 100 miles wide. In worst-case conditions, the storm can generate a wall of flying sand up to 14,000 feet high. -- Shamals usually arrive in March and April, but an unusually warm and dry December may mean that they'll show up early. --Stinging sand, as fine as talcum powder, can clog air filters, overheat the engines on military vehicles and aircraft, scratch and erode rotor blades and other moving parts, and jam sensitive weaponry. Static electricity from the storms can also interfere with radio communications, making it tricky to coordinate ground forces. --Visibility in some storms is reduced to as little as a sixteenth of a mile, making accurate targeting of Iraq's troops extremely difficult. --The dry winds are physically hard on the troops. Besides being nearly blinding, they sear the mucus passages of the eyes, nose and throat. --Even without shamal conditions, dust storms on a smaller scale are a daily problem. Any wind in such an arid, treeless terrain can fill the air with sand and dust. The Shamal wind: The wind funnels down from the northwest, starting around the Turkish-Iraqi border and ending near the northern part of the Persian Gulf. A high-pressure system forms over the Black Sea and Turkey, causing the winds to blow in a clockwise direction. The pressure funnels the warmer, dry winds downward, blowing sand and dust and creating a shamal. A low-pressure system over the Pakistan area with counterclockwise winds helps to trap the dusty flow.

Source: Bracing For Dust Storms - latimes

One year after operations in Panama, nearly half of the Apache's force was deployed to Saudi Arabia in response to Iraq's August 1990 invasion of neighboring Kuwait. In all, 273 AH-64As were positioned along the Saudi frontier in the following months. Initial difficulties adapting the Apache to the desert environment caused some concern for military planners, as well as a great deal of consternation to crews and maintenance personnel. The talc-fine sand synonymous with this region tended to get inside the helicopter itself, causing serious problems with the auxiliary power units and components of the ever-essential air-conditioning systems.

Source: AH-64 Apache Units of Operations Enduring Freedom & Iraqi Freedom - Osprey Publishing

Here is an account of experiences of troops in the harsh conditions of the Arabian desert:

Several weeks later, the military brought in hundreds of pigeons and chickens, which they placed in cages between the tents to serve as early-warning detectors for gas attacks, as coal miners have used them from centuries. But the desert dust overwhelmed the bird's fragile respiratory system, killing nearly all of them. The only fauna thriving here are the rats that live under the plywood floorboards of the tents and come out at night to scamper around the slumbering marines.

Every twenty-four hours the temperature fluctuates by up to fifty degrees, with frigid nights in the upper thirties turning in to blazing days in the upper eighties. Throughout the day you are either shivering or sweating. The sun is so intense that steel objects, such as machine-gun barrels, when left out in it for any period of time, become so hot they can be picked up only by towels like oven mitts.

By early March the desert sandstorms known as "shamals" have begun. Shamal winds gust at up to fifty miles an hour, sometimes blowing over the twenty-meter-long platoon tents marines sleep in, shredding apart the canvas and burying them in several feet of sand. It's no wonder the chickens couldn't hack it. The Marines who've been here for weeks have runny noses and inflamed eyes from the constant dust. A lot of them walk around with rags wrapped around their faces to keep the dust out, but it doesn't seem to do any good. Several develop walking pneumonia even before the invasion begins.

Source: Generation Kill: Evan Wright: 9780425224748: Amazon.com: Books

----

Now, tell me about the sand found in the Thar desert. What is so special about it?


You want me to judge the quality of an MBT on the basis of a [one-sided] story of a single event?

If the M1 series MBT had some shortcomings back then, they have been addressed. This is apparent from the documented evidence of excellent performance of M1A1 Abrams MBT during the Persian Gulf War (1991). FYI, much of this war took place in the mighty Arabian desert.

During the extensive military use/testing, multiple issues were uncovered and fixed – usually, these were connected to the actual use of the vehicles, not being significant design flaws per se. The vehicle was also criticized at first by the public but the crew and unit commanders were actually quite happy with it. It was a solid, useful battle tank and that was what they actually wanted from the start.

Source: M1 Abrams: The Whispering Death - Part 2 | Armored Warfare - Official Website

Moreover, the M1 series MBT were originally equipped with the AGT-1500 gas turbine engine. This engine is also being phased out; replaced by the newer and more robust LV 100-5 gas turbine engine:

The LV 100-5 gas turbine engine has been designed to replace to AGT 1500 turbine. In its time, the AGT 1500 turbine was the best out there. Currently, they are far too expensive to use and maintain. Production of the AGT 1500 turbine ended in 1992 due to those reasons.

The LV 100-5 gas turbine was designed in 1990’s, with production beginning in 2003. The idea was to make a more cost efficient, reliable, and lighter engine, while still offering 1500 hp.

Source: Military Tanks | Engaged in Thermodynamics

LV 100-5 gas turbine engine passed the trials during 2002 and was ready for use in 2003. This engine is not just more reliable but also 50% more fuel efficient then the earlier AGT-1500 gas turbine engine.

So I am not sure why you (and some others) are still stuck in the past.


This discount package was being negotiated as part of the deal that was supposed to occur between US and Pakistan under the leadership of Zia-ul-Haq. However, an accident that resulted in the deaths of Zia-ul-Haq and 2 senior American officials, complicated the situation. On top of everything, Mirza Aslam Beg (who replaced Zia-ul-Haq as the COAS of Pakistan) wasn't fond of US. According to the Americans, he was unpredictable and unreliable.

I am inclined to agree with Steven Zaloga that political disputes between US and Pakistan led to cancellation of the deal. Anti-American stance of Mirza Aslam Beg was not an encouraging development for the Americans after the death of Zia-ul-Haq.

Mirza Aslam Beg also predicted defeat of US during the Persian Gulf War (1991). It wouldn't surprise me if the report of abysmal performance of the M1A1 Abrams MBT during its trials in Pakistan has been made under his leadership. .


I am not in the habit of making tall claims about stuff, irrespective of my liking. My profession encourages me to strive for truth and rely upon evidence to formulate an assessment. Unfortunately, many individuals do not understand the importance of evidence and are stuck in the past due to shortsightedness.

Like it or not, M1 series MBT are a success story. They are evolving.

US have the budget and resources to develop the most advanced and capable weapons in the world; US is already experimenting with futuristic technologies [in secrecy] and will field them one day. You doubt this?

At present, M1A2 SEP V3 Abrams MBT (with TUSK II) is the most advanced MBT in the arsenal of NATO. It is the culmination of over 30 years of history of experiences acquired from the use of M1 series MBT across the world.

The M1A2 SEP V3 (with TUSK II) is a marvel of engineering and designed to maintain over-match against the challenges expected in the near future. Much of its technical details are classified but what is known is an eye-opener.

----

The legacy M1A1 model is also being upgraded to advanced M1A1D specifications to enable it to maintain over-match against the latest challenges.


FYI: The mighty Arabian desert does the same.

US manages to keep its military equipment in good shape in spite of extensively using them in desert and/or harsh environmental conditions due to excellent maintenance practices. About 50% of the budget is spent on the maintenance of the equipment.

More importantly, US have learned a lot from the experiences of operating / testing its MBT in desert environments of different countries [up till now] and its newest MBT designs are much better then the designs of 1980s.


Covered above.

AGT-1500 engine gas turbine is obsolete and no longer in use.

it failed in pakistan which is a FACT, no matter how much you blabber about your M1 fantasies. Keep sharing all the improvements GDLS has done over the years but Pakistan never ordered it nor showed any interest, even during mushy's tenure it was offered again along with the block 52s and M-109A5 self propelled artillery but was rejected.

Get over it mate, its now history.

Peace