Lt Gen (retd) Shahid Aziz opens Pandora Box on Kargil issue

[Irfan Baloch]

That's a bit like saying you managed to get your d**k out of your pants before it was then cut off..........

very creative analogy there

What is new in that IB? Even Musharraff Has spun so many yarns about Kargil, Both of them have fervent reasons to hope that people in Pakistan just forget about Kargil!
That is why, even fiction matters more than farts.

corrected your post for you

 

[Capt.Popeye]

corrected your post for you

..............................

 

[Windjammer]

Former Pakistani Generals criticising General Musharraf.....former Indian officers claim, they are not convinced about any victory in Kargil, India media points out on several peaks still being occupied by Pakistan.....Nawas Sharif, who on one side claims that he was kept in dark about the operation....but suddenly he starts shooting in the dark on the causality figures....all in all it's one hell of a roller coaster of an event.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Former Pakistani Generals criticising General Musharraf.....former Indian officers claim, they are not convinced about any victory in Kargil, India media points out on several peaks still being occupied by Pakistan.....Nawas Sharif, who on one side claims that he was kept in dark about the operation....but suddenly he starts shooting in the dark on the causality figures....all in all it's one hell of a roller coaster of an event.

I have read the biography of Air Mashal Asghar Khan who had retired just before the 1965 war and Air Marshal Noor Khan was the new Air Chief. AM Asghar Khan says that he was recalled back in the ops since he was still current and had only retired recently and he praised Noor Khan's leadership but I noticed that he wanted to do few things differently and regretted that his presence was only as an advisor not a decision maker.

difference of opinion is not something unheard off in the military across the world although its not as frank and for the sake of argument , a luxury of the parliamentarians who only exist to prove others wrong.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

No other saying can explicitly delineate the true character of Musharraf than this one, "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel". He is a man of low intellect, he was definitely ambitious and hungry for military glory but terribly lacked all those skills needed to make those dreams come true. For some reasons this man cannot keep his mouth shut, when Indian retired army generals or politicians hardly appear on Pakistani news channels this man loves to get interviewed by them. The Kargil operation had many weaknesses and the biggest of them was logistic, even a bloody civilian like me cannot overlook it. You were operating 20 km within the enemy territory and in any counter attack the enemy just needed to cut that supply line, which he also did and the rest is history.

I respect all those soldiers who fought valiantly against all odds, but have nothing but sheer contempt for the clowns like Musharraf.

You are right in your assertion. I cannot believe Kargil to be a failure of the PA soldier. That misadventure was a failure of PA leadership, specifically a cabal of a few (maybe 4) officers who 'cooked-up' that plan(?).

The soldiers on the ground could not have found themselves in more dire straits after their Leadership abandoned them on the ground. That is the biggest tragedy that the soldiers had to endure. No one can wish it on them.

While the then political leadership is also culpable, but it is very clear that the plan did not originate there. Whether and how much the PM Nawaz Sharif was in the know will probably remain moot right upto eternity. Though I am led to believe (on the basis of many Pakistani accounts) that Nawaz's knowledge was minimal and he hoped to piggy-back on the plan IF it was successful and would not accept any responsibility IF it failed; which it did.
So undoubtedly; Musharraff was one person who was completely in the know. Hence most of the responsibility lies squarely at his door-step. There is no doubt about that.

 

[notorious_eagle]

What is new in that IB? Even Musharraff Has spun so many yarns about Kargil, Both of them have fervent reasons to hope that people in Pakistan just forget about Kargil!
That is why, even fiction matters more than facts.

'Success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan'

Nawaz Sharif knew about this operation from Day 1. Since this operation ended up as a failure, he shifted the blame on to Musharraf. I can bet you if this operation was a success (which it was not going to be), Nawaz Shariff would have been the first one to step up and claim the credit for it. The quote i have used above fits perfectly in this scenario.

 

[Gandalf]

3500-4000 Pakistani Soldiers died for the loss of only 530 Indian Soldiers.

 

[Markus]

“There was no way to dig in, so they were told to make parapets with lose stones and sit behind them, with no overhead protection. The boys were comforted by their commander’s assessment that no serious response would come. But it did — wave after wave, supported by massive air bursting artillery and repeated air attacks. The enemy still couldn’t manage to capture the peaks, and instead filled in the valleys. Cut off and forsaken, our posts started collapsing one after the other, though the general publicly denied it.”

What exactly was Mushharaf (and all people who planned Kargil) thinking that they felt that India will not reply ?

I mean seriously, some Pakistan generals seems to be so naive

Pakistani generals sacrificed Pakistani soldiers to Indian bullets.

3500-4000 Pakistani Soldiers died for the loss of only 530 Indian Soldiers.

Only ????????????????????

530 is only? Please dude, its not about numbers, 530 Indian families were destroyed in that war.

Surely, "only" would not be a right word to put in that sentence.

 

[Gandalf]

\
530 is only? Please dude, its not about numbers, 530 Indian families were destroyed in that war.

Surely, "only" would not be a right word to put in that sentence.

For every Indian Soldier killed 8 Pakistani Soldiers were killed so relatively speaking Indian losses were only 530 compared to 4,000 for Pakistan.

 

[Markus]

For every Indian Soldier killed 8 Pakistani Soldiers were killed so relatively speaking Indian losses were only 530 compared to 4,000 for Pakistan.

I am not talking about numbers and ratios. We are talking about 530 HUMAN LIVES here.

 

[karan.1970]

That's a bit like saying you managed to get your d**k out of your pants before it was then cut off..........

almost fell down laughing ...

 

[Windjammer]

For every Indian Soldier killed 8 Pakistani Soldiers were killed so relatively speaking Indian losses were only 530 compared to 4,000 for Pakistan.

And where did you pull that figure out from.....oh let me guess....NS said so......well he would go to any length to get back and malign General Musharraf.....and realistically speaking, the Kargil coffin corruption is attributed to India.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

'Success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan'

Nawaz Sharif knew about this operation from Day 1. Since this operation ended up as a failure, he shifted the blame on to Musharraf. I can bet you if this operation was a success (which it was not going to be), Nawaz Shariff would have been the first one to step up and claim the credit for it. The quote i have used above fits perfectly in this scenario.

@notorious_eagle;
Of course; and that is what I believe and have said in Post#35:

Though I am led to believe (on the basis of many Pakistani accounts) that Nawaz's knowledge was minimal and he hoped to piggy-back on the plan IF it was successful and would not accept any responsibility IF it failed; which it did.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...rraf-s-disaster-gen-aziz-3.html#ixzz2IuESAtem

But did the plan originate from Nawaz Sharif or Musharraff?
Then whose failure was it?
Who then abandoned his child (or brain-child) and rendered it an orphan (in your words)?
Who suppressed and scuppered any efforts to find out how and why that "Plan" failed?
Why do people (most notably Musharraff included) fight shy of even coming to terms with the facts?

 

[Irfan Baloch]

While the then political leadership is also culpable, but it is very clear that the plan did not originate there. Whether and how much the PM Nawaz Sharif was in the know will probably remain moot right upto eternity. Though I am led to believe (on the basis of many Pakistani accounts) that Nawaz's knowledge was minimal and he hoped to piggy-back on the plan IF it was successful and would not accept any responsibility IF it failed; which it did.
So undoubtedly; Musharraff was one person who was completely in the know. Hence most of the responsibility lies squarely at his door-step. There is no doubt about that.

the Kashmir issue was internationalised
that is right
Nawaz would have claimed the entire glory like that of the nuclear tests although he had little to no say in the program that was started by Bhutto and also he was against the tests but when they did happen and Pakistan was able to withstand the international pressure he chose to claim the glory.

leadership has to take the blame of failure. there is a very lazy and lax attitude while writing the Kargil glory from Indian side because the final outcome was favourable, no one tries to check if a post was already occupied by Indians or is in fact in Pakistani control now and also all those guns blazing next to the trees were really in Kargil where even a shred of grass doesn't exist let alone tree.

who holds what peak and what mountain is also immaterial now because after this skirmish India has to guard its positions 12 months 24x7. Nawaz's question was if the operation was doable to which he was told it was doable and he just had to hold the front from international / political front. the claim that the soldiers were made to defend themselves out in the opon is full of shite
they were in the Indian made bunkers for which Mirage 2000s were employed to destroy with mixed success. the only losses were on withdrawal when Pakistan caved in to the international pressure.

 

[Gandalf]

And where did you pull that figure out from.....oh let me guess....NS said so......well he would go to any length to get back and malign General Musharraf.....and realistically speaking, the Kargil coffin corruption is attributed to India.

Not just NS but a PPP white Paper also said that.Not to forget than ex PA Lt.Gen Aziz claimed that more Pakistani soldiers died in Karhl than in 1971.

BTW Coffin Scam helped prove that Indian Casualties were around 500 as Buirton And Baiza (the coffin company) later confirmed it.