Lt Gen (retd) Shahid Aziz opens Pandora Box on Kargil issue

[A1Kaid]

Pakistan still holds territory in Kargil. According to reports Pakistan occupies high points in Kargil.

 

[notorious_eagle]

But did the plan originate from Nawaz Sharif or Musharraff?

Musharraf and 2 other Generals with full blessing and acquiescence of Shariff.

Then whose failure was it?

The leadership, both military and political

Who then abandoned his child (or brain-child) and rendered it an orphan (in your words)?

Shariff since the operation failed, if the operation would have succeeded he would be blowing trumpets at the top of his voice. Although Shariff takes the credit for the nuclear explosion in 1998, the fact is he had nothing to do with the nuclear program. Heck, both Benazir and Shariff were never briefed on the progress of the nuclear program.

Who suppressed and scuppered any efforts to find out how and why that "Plan" failed?

Musharraf. Although the General Staff did initiate studies to find out what went wrong, but it was an internal study among very senior officers which was never made public.

Why do people (most notably Musharraff included) fight shy of even coming to terms with the facts?

In politics, the first rule is deny deny deny and never accept your mistake.

Pakistan still holds territory in Kargil. According to reports Pakistan occupies high points in Kargil.

They indeed do, but at what cost was this victory achieved?

 

[Irfan Baloch]

3500-4000 Pakistani Soldiers died for the loss of only 530 Indian Soldiers.

says your media and your army

sniff sniff bull shiite

 

[Xestan]

Not just NS but a PPP white Paper also said that.Not to forget than ex PA Lt.Gen Aziz claimed that more Pakistani soldiers died in Karhl than in 1971.

BTW Coffin Scam helped prove that Indian Casualties were around 500 as Buirton And Baiza (the coffin company) later confirmed it.

Lets talk the military language now, if you understand though, which I doubt reading your immature post.

Do you even know how many Pakistani troops were actually involved in Kargil war. Your own official record says that 249 bodies of Pakistani soldiers were recovered from your side of the LoC after the fighting ended. The figure I completely disagree with. Though still, it's enough to prove your post wrong. See, there's no way Pakistanis would have recovered back "thousands" of bodies and left behind some 250. Doesn't make any sense, the point is, at the end of the fighting, there was noway to recover the bodies of our troops, 'cause the area was totally under Indian Army's control.

Next thing, Pakistan's casualties, most, if not all, were in the last weeks of fighting, for starting some weeks, they were there practicing their shooting skills, just targeting Indian soldiers, and your Army had no idea what's hitting them. The total number of occupiers your Army told was not more than 1800, a disputed figure, but still enough again to put your immaturity to shame. If the total number of occupiers was 1800, how could there be 4000 Pakistani casualties? Unless, you wanna believe that Indian Army crossed into our side of LoC and martyred some 4000 soldiers and then their bodies vanished.

I hope you get my point. The 1800 figure itself is exaggerated. Lets for the sake of argument agree to that, in the ending days, hundreds of Pakistani soldiers withdrew from the heights, that's official, so what numbers of soldiers do you think came back alive? Any guess?

And yes, Indian Army's official estimate of Pakistani casualties is 725 soldiers. What do you wanna say about this? For years, Indians believe this. And suddenly, a 'white paper' by a POLITICAL PARTY which has no concern with Military/Defence matters, and the people reporting this figure don't know a sht about what they are talking about, I bet they can't even locate Kargil in the map, and the whole India started to believe that. 4000 Troops, seriously?

You guys make a joke out of yourself when you pass such stupid statements. At least do some unbiased research.

 

[Xestan]

says your media and your army

sniff sniff bull shiite

Actually, their Media and Army for more than 5 years quoted the figure 725, then suddenly, Nawaz Sharif came with his own figure 4000 and then Indians followed him, ignoring the official estimate of the Indian Military. What a shame!

 

[A1Kaid]

Musharraf and 2 other Generals with full blessing and acquiescence of Shariff.



The leadership, both military and political



Shariff since the operation failed, if the operation would have succeeded he would be blowing trumpets at the top of his voice. Although Shariff takes the credit for the nuclear explosion in 1998, the fact is he had nothing to do with the nuclear program. Heck, both Benazir and Shariff were never briefed on the progress of the nuclear program.



Musharraf. Although the General Staff did initiate studies to find out what went wrong, but it was an internal study among very senior officers which was never made public.



In politics, the first rule is deny deny deny and never accept your mistake.



They indeed do, but at what cost was this victory achieved?

They indeed do, but at what cost was this victory achieved?

Cost was diplomatic side, but tactical and strategic side was victorious. Pakistan holds some of the highest positions in Kargil, Kargil is practically Pakistan's with Pakistani troops holding commanding positions. Indians talk of Tiger Hill, Indian troops on Tiger hill are in PA gun-sights if conflict breaks out, Tiger Hill can easily be attacked because it is a lower point than what PA holds.

What also should be mention is Gen. Aziz has political differences with former Pres. Gen. Musharraf, I think it may be also have to do with lack of promotion by the former Army Chief of Staff, Gen. Aziz may have been sidelined.

 

[Gandalf]

Lets talk the military language now, if you understand though, which I doubt reading your immature post.

Do you even know how many Pakistani troops were actually involved in Kargil war. Your own official record says that 249 bodies of Pakistani soldiers were recovered from your side of the LoC after the fighting ended. The figure I completely disagree with. Though still, it's enough to prove your post wrong. See, there's no way Pakistanis would have recovered back "thousands" of bodies and left behind some 250. Doesn't make any sense, the point is, at the end of the fighting, there was noway to recover the bodies of our troops, 'cause the area was totally under Indian Army's control.

Next thing, Pakistan's casualties, most, if not all, were in the last weeks of fighting, for starting some weeks, they were there practicing their shooting skills, just targeting Indian soldiers, and your Army had no idea what's hitting them. The total number of occupiers your Army told was not more than 1800, a disputed figure, but still enough again to put your immaturity to shame. If the total number of occupiers was 1800, how could there be 4000 Pakistani casualties? Unless, you wanna believe that Indian Army crossed into our side of LoC and martyred some 4000 soldiers and then their bodies vanished.

I hope you get my point. The 1800 figure itself is exaggerated. Lets for the sake of argument agree to that, in the ending days, hundreds of Pakistani soldiers withdrew from the heights, that's official, so what numbers of soldiers do you think came back alive? Any guess?

And yes, Indian Army's official estimate of Pakistani casualties is 725 soldiers. What do you wanna say about this? For years, Indians believe this. And suddenly, a 'white paper' by a POLITICAL PARTY which has no concern with Military/Defence matters, and the people reporting this figure don't know a sht about what they are talking about, I bet they can't even locate Kargil in the map, and the whole India started to believe that. 4000 Troops, seriously?

You guys make a joke out of yourself when you pass such stupid statements. At least do some unbiased research.

Kargil war was a total disaster, claims Gen Majeed Malik - thenews.com.pk
Hmm,acc to Him PA suffered more casualties in Kargil than in 1971.:shocked:

says your media and your army

sniff sniff bull shiite

You own PM during 1999 said this as well as PPP.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Actually, their Media and Army for more than 5 years quoted the figure 725, then suddenly, Nawaz Sharif came with his own figure 4000 and then Indians followed him, ignoring the official estimate of the Indian Military. What a shame!

curse that Nehari devouring Petha loving Lion of Raiwand

since he is used to big numbers there is no doubt this figure must have come up when he was relieving himself and thinking of 2nd breakfast or Bunch.

if this is the kind of source Indians look for to boast themselves then there is no hope and no wonder that they choose to ignore what the freed Indian prisoners say about how well treated they were by Pakistanis (even when they are safely in India, reference Surjeet Singh interview with media) and what Burkha Dutt says about shameless Indian officers who had head of the Pakistani soldier as trophy but the entire Indian Military is crying rivers over unproven claims of Pakistanis crossing LoC and beheading their soldier.

Kargil war was a total disaster, claims Gen Majeed Malik - thenews.com.pk
Hmm,acc to Him PA suffered more casualties in Kargil than in 1971.:shocked:




You own PM during 1999 said this as well as PPP.

if these are the sources of your claim then I will request the mods to move your post to funny section
a brigade level incursion suffers more losses than the entire war on East and west of Pakistan... hmm and were the prisoners 10 million or 100 million?

make it 180 million , Bollywood has already captured us by the way. although Imran Khan tried and failed when he tried to capture some Indian actresses.

 

[Gandalf]

curse that Nehari devouring Petha loving Lion of Raiwand

since he is used to big numbers there is no doubt this figure must have come up when he was relieving himself and thinking of 2nd breakfast or Bunch.

if this is the kind of source Indians look for to boast themselves then there is no hope and no wonder that they choose to ignore what the freed Indian prisoners say about how well treated they were by Pakistanis (even when they are safely in India, reference Surjeet Singh interview with media) and what Burkha Dutt says about shameless Indian officers who had head of the Pakistani soldier as trophy but the entire Indian Military is crying rivers over unproven claims of Pakistanis crossing LoC and beheading their soldier.

There nothing wrong in taking Trophy's during Wartime.Both IA and PA do that since 1965.

For example in 1965-Pak Soldiers chopped of ears and genitals of some Indian Soldiers.
Similarly Gurkhas chopped of heads of some Pak Soldiers.

 

[Windjammer]

Kargil war was a total disaster, claims Gen Majeed Malik - thenews.com.pk
Hmm,acc to Him PA suffered more casualties in Kargil than in 1971.:shocked:




You own PM during 1999 said this as well as PPP.

Once again, read an extract from a detailed article written soon after the Kargil conflict and put a lid on it.

Indian newspapers and their public believe--or say they believe--that the conflict in Dras-Kargil last year was a military victory for India. In fact, it was a war 'won' by briefings and a slavishly supportive media. The Indian public wanted to be assured of 'victory,' and every effort was made to provide that assurance. Kargil was disastrous for Pakistan in worldwide political terms, and was an important public relations coup for the Indian government, both internally (in the run-up to the election), and internationally. But militarily it was a shambles for India whose brave but ill-prepared soldiers suffered gravely and would have sustained even heavier casualties had the conflict continued.

 

[Edevelop]

Pakistan still holds territory in Kargil. According to reports Pakistan occupies high points in Kargil.

...looking at Indian national highway.

But that is not to say its a victory. Musharraf screwed the whole plan big time. If he hadn't existed, perhaps, Pakistan would have gone and taken all of this "no man's land".

 

[Gandalf]

Once again, read an extract from a detailed article written soon after the Kargil conflict and put a lid on it.

Major AGHA AMIN(rtd) of Pakistan Army on Kargil conflict:

EVEN DRUG SMUGGLERS OF BALOCHISTAN DONT ABANDON THEIR DEAD BODIES LIKE THIS AND THIS PICTURE IS REVOLTING.ALL THESE MEN WERE VOLUNTEERS ALTHOUGH REGULAR SOLDIERS ! THE FAULT LIES WITH AMBITIOUS OPPORTUNISTS LIKE GENERAL MUSHARRAF ALONE !

 

[Irfan Baloch]

There nothing wrong in taking Trophy's during Wartime.Both IA and PA do that since 1965.

For example in 1965-Pak Soldiers chopped of ears and genitals of some Indian Soldiers.
Similarly Gurkhas chopped of heads of some Pak Soldiers.

you got to be the first Indian who is accepting that Indian army does that too while crying unfair unfair over the alleged beheading of their soldiers


do you also know that Nawaz sherif's sayings change with his mood?

he didnt know about kargil operation but he knew the death toll
he didnt know about his followers destorying Pakistan Supreme court but he knew that Chief justice was not in the premises when PMLn attacked
he didnt know if the commerical airliner carrying Musharraf was denied landing but he knew that Musharraf was coming via PIA airline that evening
he didnt know about Pakistani nuclear tests and preparations but he knew to claim the glory anyway
he didnt know that lahore was submerged in flood water & people were being stung by dengue mosquito's but he knew to go to Sindh and cry a river in PPP strongholds affected by floods

Major AGHA AMIN(rtd) of Pakistan Army on Kargil conflict:

lol I think this so called Major Agha Amin should join smugglers of Baluchistan if he holds them in that high esteem
we might come face to face one day after all. our anti narcotics force in the area kicks *** and normally dont leave anyone to abandon the bodies anyway.

 

[Xestan]

Kargil war was a total disaster, claims Gen Majeed Malik - thenews.com.pk
Hmm,acc to Him PA suffered more casualties in Kargil than in 1971.:shocked:

You couldn't answer my post with any logic, so now you've started to post the same sht again. The point was, do you have a brain, use it. This General, I am sure if asked what I asked you, will have no answer.

Talk logic, my friend. And btw, post reported.

 

[MilSpec]

you got to be the first Indian who is accepting that Indian army does that too while crying unfair unfair over the alleged beheading of their soldiers


do you also know that Nawaz sherif's sayings change with his mood?

he didnt know about kargil operation but he knew the death toll
he didnt know about his followers destorying Pakistan Supreme court but he knew that Chief justice was not in the premises when PMLn attacked
he didnt know if the commerical airliner carrying Musharraf was denied landing but he knew that Musharraf was coming via PIA airline that evening
he didnt know about Pakistani nuclear tests and preparations but he knew to claim the glory anyway
he didnt know that lahore was submerged in flood water & people were being stung by dengue mosquito's but he knew to go to Sindh and cry a river in PPP strongholds affected by floods



lol I think this so called Major Agha Amin should join smugglers of Baluchistan if he holds them in that high esteem
we might come face to face one day after all. our anti narcotics force in the area kicks *** and normally dont leave anyone to abandon the bodies anyway.

Jingosim aside, did it in any way affect PA... abandoning bodies of fallen comrades or was it conveyed to them that it would be part of mission, hence a bigger sacrifice?