Losing My Religion?

[Jungibaaz]

I spent some of my younger days as a very agnostic person.
Now I know some things I didn't know back then.

Ever since, I've never felt the need to validate my religious beliefs, go about proving them.
Religion is faith, not fact, that is what separates religion from science.

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

God is just watching the unrest in the world, people killing the people, torching them, slaughtering them, and God is just watching them... Just like He is watching the Drama!! Even if you pray to God and spend your whole life on God's direction and every inch of His principle, then still you are not sure about Jannat!!
We didn't ask about to create us....We were forced to grow up, So, We are supposed to take care of Us, instead he says, Bow down....

 

[Anubis]

I thought agnostic is somebody who neither accepts or denies god as such.. and open to both possibilities..
where as atheist does not believe in existance of any god.

Actually Agnosticism and Atheism are answers two different questions.Atheists cannot say 'God does not exist'.They can say,'The probability of the existence of God is extremely low,thus we do not believe in god.'

If I ask you,'Do you believe in god?...It is a solid 'yes' or 'no question....If you answer yes you are a 'theist'...if you say no you are an 'atheist'.

Now if I ask you,'Is there a god?'....you have two answers 'yes' or 'I do not know'....you see atheists can not say 'There is no god' because atheists cannot disprove the existence of god....nothing in the world can be logically disproved...you cannot disprove the existence of Santa.

If your answer to the second question is 'yes' you are a 'theist'....BUT if your answer is 'I do not know' you are an 'Agnostic'.

Now my question is can a person believe in something he doesn't know?I do not think so.So if an agnostic doesn't even know if god exists or not how can he believe in god.And if an agnostic cannot believe in god he is by definition an atheist.And all atheists are agnostic because they do not if god exists or not...they just do not believe in god due to lack of evidence.Now there are some people out there who identify themselves as 'theist Agnostics'....but I do not see how it is possible to believe in something you have absolutely no idea about.

you can refer to @500 s post....he is an atheist because he does not know if god exists....that is exactly what the atheist proposition is!

 

[Anotherangle]

Prophets were sent with miracles to prove their preaching( although they also used logic as a secondary tool in their preaching).
The Quran is the given miracle to the last prophet (p.b.u.h), so it leads to the truth in many ways; one of those ways is to study its scientific miracles discovered in our age. A very useful booklet I found on the topic is A brief illustrated guide to Understanding Islam . It is primarily written for non-believers but the Muslims will also find it interesting. To learn some of the miracles and truthfulness of Quran, read the first chapter Click the link:A Brief Illustrated Guide To Understanding Islam, Muslims, and the Quran

 

[ajpirzada]

No
In the context of this conversation facts are not subtle, but reproducible, measurable and quantifiable observations.

Theories are hypotheis or objective statement providing an analystical explantion for that theory. Experiments using the "facts" convert those hypotheis into theories with higher level of confidence such as Faradays theory of electromagnetism, Lenz's law etc.

Conjecture: is just statement without any data to back it up, often derrived from heuristic method of observation.



Absolutely not, there is a common joke among quality engineers "shark attack and icecream sales", holistically looking at the data, you can fit the data to propose more shark attacks in the months of higher ice cream sales, but that doesn't mean it is related, Can you reproduce that data in a controlled environment, thus just because a data set fit, doesn't provide credibility to the theory, the observation has to crafted into logical proof and shown with the ability to re demonstrate.

Religion

fact vs religion, theory is heat causes change in resistance of material, with a heat source and voltage source and an ammeter you can get the facts... and then analsye that data to give you the curve that suggests the relation between temp and electrical resistance of the material, and you can reproduce it over and over giving you the same relationship.

If the belief in a hypothetical religion is assume - "change in electrical resistance of is caused by demon", how will you analyse it, although it might sound idiotic, it is almost the same as prophet muhhamed riding a flying horse to the moon, or Virgin Mary giving birth, or Jesus ascending to the sky..... all of them beliefs, none of them closely resembling any logical rationale.

you are escaping the right question by raising other questions which come after rather than before the first question. im aware of the identification problems with competing theories fitting the same dataset or in other words same dataset supporting two competing theories with equal likelihood. lets keep the debate about the relationship between data, hypothesis and theories aside - which we both agree on but are using different wordings.
Now you rightly implied that the significant core of every scientific theory is experimental replication. So for a starting point there are only two hypothesis concerning the matter at hand: 1) creation created itself; or, 2) creation was created by some creator. now we dont need the replication of the experiment so as the prove that creation necessitates creator. its an everyday fact. but there is no scientific experiment to support the first hypothesis which is what the atheists propagate. In fact, that creation necessitates its creator is as scientific as any other scientific reality and can be replicated by anyone with 100% probability of success. whereas the opposite has no experimental proof and is a mere belief of those who wish to believe that way.
So for me existence of God as a Creator of the creation is a scientific fact while the opposite does not hold any scientific grounds.

 

[Sliver]

@ajpirzada so who created the creator?

 

[MilSpec]

So for me existence of God as a Creator of the creation is a scientific fact while the opposite does not hold any scientific grounds.

And that is without any data, and as you imply for you, thus making it a belief and not a fact... as far as evolution is concerned, the fact remains that smaller scales genetic trait selection can be recreated in a controlled environment (Mendels peas), but for common ancestor theory, the time frame exceed thousands of years and thus even if attempted in controlled environment the duration of such experiment will exceed the lifespan of the researchers to begin with.... here is where fossil records come in handy, which are hard to come by as you have to comb through dirt literally and piece together the puzzle. Although the correct link to humans havent been un earthed, links to pre-historic evolutionary links to other species of cats, wolves, sharks, and other animals have been found in a large scale, which points towards validity of evolution as a plausible theory backed by data.

Now religion on the other hands, especially if the texts are to be believed, have to be taken into full account and not cherry picked according to what might fit common sense, If you do believe in the bible, you will be subscribing to virgin birth and ascension of christ to heaven and all that stuff.... now neither are thier any historical records of such acts, nor are there any facts of physics to support this....

on a side note, most religions subscribe to heaven and hell concept, there have been approximately 150 billion humans dead since the human walked this planet, assuming half of them made it to this heaven place,,, you do realize that there are already 75 billion people there...

 

[ajpirzada]

And that is without any data, and as you imply for you, thus making it a belief and not a fact... as far as evolution is concerned, the fact remains that smaller scales genetic trait selection can be recreated in a controlled environment (Mendels peas), but for common ancestor theory, the time frame exceed thousands of years and thus even if attempted in controlled environment the duration of such experiment will exceed the lifespan of the researchers to begin with.... here is where fossil records come in handy, which are hard to come by as you have to comb through dirt literally and piece together the puzzle. Although the correct link to humans havent been un earthed, links to pre-historic evolutionary links to other species of cats, wolves, sharks, and other animals have been found in a large scale, which points towards validity of evolution as a plausible theory backed by data.

Now religion on the other hands, especially if the texts are to be believed, have to be taken into full account and not cherry picked according to what might fit common sense, If you do believe in the bible, you will be subscribing to virgin birth and ascension of christ to heaven and all that stuff.... now neither are thier any historical records of such acts, nor are there any facts of physics to support this....

on a side note, most religions subscribe to heaven and hell concept, there have been approximately 150 billion humans dead since the human walked this planet, assuming half of them made it to this heaven place,,, you do realize that there are already 75 billion people there...

see you are avoiding the question by debating on things which follow. prove to me in a scientific experiment that creation does not require a creator. until then, believe as you wish! do not teach me the processes of evolution which i know.

 

[MilSpec]

see you are avoiding the question by debating on things which follow. prove to me in a scientific experiment that creation does not require a creator. until then, believe as you wish! do not teach me the processes of evolution which i know.

read again.... I guess I clearly stated "the fact remains that smaller scales genetic trait selection can be recreated in a controlled environment (Mendels peas), but for common ancestor theory, the time frame exceed thousands of years and thus even if attempted in controlled environment the duration of such experiment will exceed the lifespan of the researchers to begin with.... here is where fossil records come in handy, which are hard to come by as you have to comb through dirt literally and piece together the puzzle. Although the correct link to humans havent been un earthed, links to pre-historic evolutionary links to other species of cats, wolves, sharks, and other animals have been found in a large scale, which points towards validity of evolution as a plausible theory backed by data.


Where is your creators analysis???

see you are avoiding the question by debating on things which follow. prove to me in a scientific experiment that creation does not require a creator. until then, believe as you wish! do not teach me the processes of evolution which i know.

And btw... I don't believe in flying horses! creation might need a creator, but evolution doesnt...simple

 

[livingdead]

I spent some of my younger days as a very agnostic person.
Now I know some things I didn't know back then.

Ever since, I've never felt the need to validate my religious beliefs, go about proving them.
Religion is faith, not fact, that is what separates religion from science.

OP wants a rational explanation to his faith or bits of which is believed to be true @Jungibaaz
Nobody denies there is very good psychological reason to believe in religion.

 

[ajpirzada]

@ajpirzada

Thank you for your reply, I had many questions, and I have got the answers of all, and I can be convinced like other believers do, but the problem is, to be a strong believer I have to absolutely obey and believe on the all decrees of Allah, and I am never entitled to complain, even I suffer.

Still I have got two major questions

1.

We know that there will be no good person/believer before the Doom's day. The criterion of the Doom's day is that, there can not be any good person before the Dooms' day, so, does not it mean that the people who will born just before the Doom's day will inevitably have to be a bad person?
I mean, We, as a believer, know that one day Doom's day will come, and there will be no Good person left on this earth just before the Doom's day. Right? .... So dose not it mean that even the people who would born at the age just before the Doom's day try to be a Good person, it will not be practical/possible for them, because, we know, according to Islam, there will be no Good persons left on this earth just before the Doom's day. On the other hand, if even a good person remains on earth, there will be no Doom's day, so one day everyone has to be inevitably/per-conditionally a bad person for the Doom's day to be occurred.

2.

Here is the question: http://www.defence.pk/forums/members-club/268111-i-need-answer-its-important-me.html

the answer to the first question is simple. i will close the door of my house when the guests stop coming. now if i have the perfect knowledge then i can choose a right time for closing the door with certainty that no more guests will be coming. but at the same time my prior knowledge is not a constraint for anyone to come to the party. those who have not come, have not come because of their own free will. my prior knowledge of them not coming did not stop them from coming.
Same is the answer to your question. Allah, in His infinite and perfect knowledge, knows exactly when no more good people will be left in this world with none to come even in the future. His knowing is not stopping the coming of the good people but they have chosen that out of their own free will which Allah knows.

the second question im not so sure. There is a verse in the Quran which says, 'in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find peace.' In my limited knowledge, there is no condition around this verse. so i guess whosoever in whichever religion remembers God should find some peace. now obviously we all will be held accountable for our other actions that if they were in accordance with God's command or against it.
Furthermore, psychology is a part of our biology. and we are dependent on our biology as far as our all sorts of interaction are concerned. Allah made Prophet Musa, peace be upon him, listened to His speech via his faculties. therefore it is not contradictory for any sort of peace from Allah to descend upon us via our psychological faculty. have i answered your question?

about 'Fanna,' 'Baqa' and other such terminologies, these are the terminologies of the people of tarawwaf and their meaning are not literal. for example, let me quote you parts of one of the primary text book of tasawwaf (Kashf-ul-mahjoob of al-Hajveri):

‘when anyone gains knowledge of Allah and becomes subsistent in knowledge of Him, he is annihilated (fanna) from ignorance of Him. And when he is annihilated from the forgetfulness he becomes subsistent in remembrance of Him, and this involves discarding of blameworthy attributes and the substitution of praiseworthy attributes.’

It is, therefore, wrong to ‘imagine that annihilation signifies loss of essence and thus destruction of personality, and that subsistence indicates the subsistence of God in man’ or a man in God and saying such is ‘a manifest error.’

but unfortunately, some ignorants have misused these terms to an extent that it becomes shirk.

read again.... I guess I clearly stated "the fact remains that smaller scales genetic trait selection can be recreated in a controlled environment (Mendels peas), but for common ancestor theory, the time frame exceed thousands of years and thus even if attempted in controlled environment the duration of such experiment will exceed the lifespan of the researchers to begin with.... here is where fossil records come in handy, which are hard to come by as you have to comb through dirt literally and piece together the puzzle. Although the correct link to humans havent been un earthed, links to pre-historic evolutionary links to other species of cats, wolves, sharks, and other animals have been found in a large scale, which points towards validity of evolution as a plausible theory backed by data.


Where is your creators analysis???



And btw... I don't believe in flying horses! creation might need a creator, but evolution doesnt...simple

thats not the answer. u r telling me the process - evolution. dont tell me how is BMW created in a factory starting from its conception to how it has evolved over time. i know the HOW part!

 

[ajpirzada]

This question does not have an answer; no human can ever answer this question. Period!

God is powerful? Agree!

God is all knowing? Agree!

Let me just give you a simple example: - Let’s just say before the world ends (qyamaat), altogether 50 people were sent to this planet By God. Now 10 were atheists, 10 were Christians, 10 Hindus, the remaining 20 were Muslims only 10 were sent to heaven because they obeyed God & the rest to hell.

God is all knowing? Agree!

Now God knew only 10 Muslims will be sent to heaven & the remaining 10 will join them later (Look out for me in the reaming 10)

The rest Hindu/Christians/ and so on will remain in hell forever.

Now god knew all this, so what was the point of wasting all this time on us & will punish us later!!!

It’s like God made/directed/produced a movie that he knows the ending to it! End off/nothing more to dicuss/thats just basics/common sense/logic

& remember never give example of human as an replacement of god, that just dont work

for example the teacher & student example, which one will pass & which one will fail! just leave these human made examples out.

i fail to see the logic here.
all the 50 people are free to do what they wish. either be muslim, hindu, and so on. now God knows that by the end of time who will be going to heaven or hell. but at the same time it is not God who made them choose their actions which either take them to heaven or hell.
so what is your complaint here? that if God knows all then why doesnt He punish or reward the people according to His knowledge even before the actions are committed? now that would be unjust and devoid of logic.

 

[MilSpec]

thats not the answer. u r telling me the process - evolution. dont tell me how is BMW created in a factory starting from its conception to how it has evolved over time. i know the HOW part!

there is the fallacy, life on the planet is not created by zeus or allah or superman, it has evolved from single cell organism over millions of years, that is the postulated theory on which everyday addidtional data is compile to solidify the thoery... as it was not created there were no designs, simulations, scaled prototypes, pp2 testing, initial launch containment, and production phases in life on the planet as in a BMW 3 series life cycle...

the onus is on you to prove the ridiculous notion of burraq, prophet mohammed's flying mule/donkey/horse something of that sorts, or virgin impregnation of mary by "god" or even flying sled of santa clause...

I can easily prove natural selection survival of fittest in changing environmental scanario's over galapago's finches, but can you prove splitting of moon and talking wolves or muhammad calling allah for rain or moses parting rivers...

If you do subscribe to intelligent design non-sense, the provide the data to suggest mitigation of chromosomes that made us what we are today, don't over-simplify by bringing in theological discussion or if/or statement, but do provide exact compilation of data accredited by any journals to provide valid data that points to the creator theory...

 

[ajpirzada]

there is the fallacy, life on the planet is not created by zeus or allah or superman, it has evolved from single cell organism over millions of years, that is the postulated theory on which everyday addidtional data is compile to solidify the thoery... as it was not created there were no designs, simulations, scaled prototypes, pp2 testing, initial launch containment, and production phases in life on the planet as in a BMW 3 series life cycle...

the onus is on you to prove the ridiculous notion of burraq, prophet mohammed's flying mule/donkey/horse something of that sorts, or virgin impregnation of mary by "god" or even flying sled of santa clause...

I can easily prove natural selection survival of fittest in changing environmental scanario's over galapago's finches, but can you prove splitting of moon and talking wolves or muhammad calling allah for rain or moses parting rivers...

If you do subscribe to intelligent design non-sense, the provide the data to suggest mitigation of chromosomes that made us what we are today, don't over-simplify by bringing in theological discussion or if/or statement, but do provide exact compilation of data accredited by any journals to provide valid data that points to the creator theory...

avoiding the question again. the onus is on you to prove that the Universe does not have a creator. that a created thing needs a creator is a fact being replicated at every instant by everyone. it is a fallacy to take the answer to How as an answer for Who!

 

[MilSpec]

avoiding the question again. the onus is on you to prove that the Universe does not have a creator. that a created thing needs a creator is a fact being replicated at every instant by everyone. it is a fallacy to take the answer to How as an answer for Who!

cant provide you the answer of how universe came into existence.. but just because the scientific community doesn't have the answer as we dont have the supporting evidence.. that doesn't mean I start believing religous data based of fantasy....

Just because we dont know the value of a=? that doesn't mean a=flying horses...

Now I wont ask you about creation or theology... I will ask you a simple question, do you believe in quran and hadiths, do you beleive in miracles performed by prophet muhammad?