Longewala 'lies' - Nailed

[MilSpec]

^^^ Smell the coffee; boy!!!

 

[Joe Shearer]

Indian Army held the post till dawn untill the IAF arrived, after then there was no need for Army to be there as pakistani outfit was on retreat, If Army had run away what the hell was your tanks doing fumbling around in the dark at night.....

Too many questions, which is why it is difficult to understand this battle:

1. Did Chandpuri's detachment stand its ground?
2. When did the casualties occur? Did they occur at the spot or elsewhere?
3. If they failed to hold their ground, where did they go? Did they 'scatter', as one post has it? Did they make their way to another spot? If so, where?
4. While the Indian detachment was holding its ground, or scattering, or retreating in good order to another location, what on earth was the Pakistani force doing?
5. Why did the Pakistani force make such poor speed through the night?
6. Was it stalled at one spot, with or without resistance from the Indian Army, for several hours? For what reason?
7. Why, in that day and age, did relatively slow jets with rockets inflict such damage on an armoured column? What defences did the column have against tactics and weapons which were nearly thirty years older?

What the devil was going on?

Atma Singh was AOP, and saw what happened after dawn. Where was he before, and how much of what was going on did he get to learn then? Was there anyone at field rank beyond Chandpuri who was aware of events, was there any meaningful inter-Services coordination, or was it simply a case of the IAF getting battlefield input, recognising a threat and a target, and responding with clinical efficiency?

Questions, questions....

On a different note, I utterly fail to get the drift of some posts, which imply that Indian accounts are mendacious. What is that about?

The glorification of the Army by the film 'Border'? Anybody who figures out that films aren't exactly historically accurate has obviously not seen many war films before.

Was it about the Indian Army not saying, as Atma Singh did, that Longewala was an Air Force victory, and the Army had little to do with it? I believe most of the Army knows that it was an Air Force victory, if the causes of victory can ever be partitioned like that, and that it boils down to admiration for a hugely outnumbered force that faced off their opponents for some time.

Whether it was for an hour or five hours, the resistance was gallant. If there was a subsequent retreat, that was surely a prudent thing to do, in military and not in cinematic terms. Atma Singh has been saying what he says now for years, decades; I have eye-witness accounts of a conference where he stood up and started reciting his account, and General Rodrigues asked him to sit down. Note that he was a Major at the time of that battle, and retired as a Major General. Not exactly a case of victimisation; if everyone didn't know already that the essence of his narration was factual, would he have got successive promotions past the filter points at Colonel and Brigadier? Very few people make it to three star ranks. That he did not make it simply means that there were better people than he, not that he had stepped on anyone's toes, and suffered as a consequence.

 

[MilSpec]

Too many questions, which is why it is difficult to understand this battle:

1. Did Chandpuri's detachment stand its ground?
2. When did the casualties occur? Did they occur at the spot or elsewhere?
3. If they failed to hold their ground, where did they go? Did they 'scatter', as one post has it? Did they make their way to another spot? If so, where?
4. While the Indian detachment was holding its ground, or scattering, or retreating in good order to another location, what on earth was the Pakistani force doing?
5. Why did the Pakistani force make such poor speed through the night?
6. Was it stalled at one spot, with or without resistance from the Indian Army, for several hours? For what reason?
7. Why, in that day and age, did relatively slow jets with rockets inflict such damage on an armoured column? What defences did the column have against tactics and weapons which were nearly thirty years older?

What the devil was going on?

Atma Singh was AOP, and saw what happened after dawn. Where was he before, and how much of what was going on did he get to learn then? Was there anyone at field rank beyond Chandpuri who was aware of events, was there any meaningful inter-Services coordination, or was it simply a case of the IAF getting battlefield input, recognising a threat and a target, and responding with clinical efficiency?

Questions, questions....

On a different note, I utterly fail to get the drift of some posts, which imply that Indian accounts are mendacious. What is that about?

The glorification of the Army by the film 'Border'? Anybody who figures out that films aren't exactly historically accurate has obviously not seen many war films before.

Was it about the Indian Army not saying, as Atma Singh did, that Longewala was an Air Force victory, and the Army had little to do with it? I believe most of the Army knows that it was an Air Force victory, if the causes of victory can ever be partitioned like that, and that it boils down to admiration for a hugely outnumbered force that faced off their opponents for some time.

Whether it was for an hour or five hours, the resistance was gallant. If there was a subsequent retreat, that was surely a prudent thing to do, in military and not in cinematic terms. Atma Singh has been saying what he says now for years, decades; I have eye-witness accounts of a conference where he stood up and started reciting his account, and General Rodrigues asked him to sit down. Note that he was a Major at the time of that battle, and retired as a Major General. Not exactly a case of victimisation; if everyone didn't know already that the essence of his narration was factual, would he have got successive promotions past the filter points at Colonel and Brigadier? Very few people make it to three star ranks. That he did not make it simply means that there were better people than he, not that he had stepped on anyone's toes, and suffered as a consequence.

Well there is over complication of the simple fact that Indian post was at a higher elevation and quite secure at the time, I doubt the tactical retreat theory because the post was the most secure area at that time with open land for miles with no cover, next is the scattering theory, which can as well be dubbed as flanking maneuver, thus doesn't seem to be far fetched.

Whether it was a retreat or relived from the sector to ensure minimal fratricide can be another issue, you don't want your ground troops 200 feet away from unguided rockets.

Chandpuri's decision to stand ground was extraordinary brave, and deserves the kudos, as far as border film is concerned, I just have praise for the song... thats it....

It would be nice if Chandpuri gave a more precise recount of the events.

 

[Thirdfront]

I can't recall the source but according to some pakistan officer, this is what happened:

1. Pak forces weren't even aware of the Indian OP
2. During attack, Pak forces split into two
3. One branch completely bypassed Indian OP but the other one (probably smaller one) bumped into it
4. Since Pak forces did not have intel, they were confused. Couple of landmines, stiff resistance and sandy terrain bogged them down
5. The main thrust advanced for couple of hours and realized that other thrust was MIA. Confused, it made an U-turn, wasting precious time
6. By the time Pak forces joined, it was dawn and Indian hunters were on the scene.

 

[qamar1990]

If that is the case what will you call the recent happening in pakistan . Much more than 20,000 dead .

it would be something if india was the main cause of it lol.

 

[kurup]

it would be something if india was the main cause of it lol.

And we hear every single day from pakistanis .... RAW behind BLA , RAW behind TTP ..... lol .

 

[Chronos]

And we hear every single day from pakistanis .... RAW behind BLA , RAW behind TTP ..... lol .

This thread is pointless. Because Pakistan got soundly trounced in 1971, and they were split in two, which was an eventuality anyway, because the Bangladeshis got sick of being pushed around.

The posters can talk about longewala all they like, but the wheels of history have turned and the ink has dried in the books.

I am sorry the martial punjabis git beaten by baniya yindoos, but that's how it is.

If Pakistanis were stronger than us, would they leave us alone? Doubt it, they have transgressed again and again.

 

[qamar1990]

And we hear every single day from pakistanis .... RAW behind BLA , RAW behind TTP ….. lol .

raw behind bla no doubt about that.
but i think bigger players are behind ttp.
a pathetic country like india can't achieve something like that on its own.

This thread is pointless. Because Pakistan got soundly trounced in 1971, and they were split in two, which was an eventuality anyway, because the Bangladeshis got sick of being pushed around.

The posters can talk about longewala all they like, but the wheels of history have turned and the ink has dried in the books.

I am sorry the martial punjabis git beaten by baniya yindoos, but that's how it is.

If Pakistanis were stronger than us, would they leave us alone? Doubt it, they have transgressed again and again.

i think we pakistan sure have india at its place for being out numbered almost 10 to 1

 

[Hindustani]

asses have been kicked and feelings have been hurt

What do you expect from a failed nation?

 

[kurup]

raw behind bla no doubt about that.
but i think bigger players are behind ttp.
a pathetic country like india can't achieve something like that on its own.

Repeat the last sentence a thousand times . May be it will soothe your hurt egos .

 

[MKI 30]

raw behind bla no doubt about that.
but i think bigger players are behind ttp.
a pathetic country like india can't achieve something like that on its own.

Hey can you put out proof of India's involvement ? Or are you talking from behind? Don't be so butthurt. By the way are you surprised at today's pakistan's condition. I thought it would be now routine for you to see your nation like that.

 

[qamar1990]

asses have been kicked and feelings have been hurt

What do you expect from a failed nation?

yet the people in this state live better then indians.
are more happier then indians
have higher iq then indians
less disease then indians
look better then indians
and have bigger dicks the indians

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

yet the people in this state live better then indians.
are more happier then indians
have higher iq then indians
less disease then indians
look better then indians
and have bigger dicks the indians

Thats why you live in USA. Those pakistani dicks proved too large for you.

 

[qamar1990]

Thats why you live in USA. Those pakistani dicks proved too large for you.

i live in america because its a better country. i wasn't comparing america to pakistan. i was comparing sad ole india to pakistan.

 

[IndianTiger]

You can list which of Indian weapon is better? Rest is a proven fact, i do not need to prove any thing.
Again, you are welcome to bring forth, comparative examples.

Indian weapons are not as good as European and US hardware but surely better enough to tackle Pakistan.. In-fact more than that..

i live in america because its a better country. i wasn't comparing america to pakistan. i was comparing sad ole india to pakistan.

Please don't compere Pakistan with India, India is surely a great nation, pakistan is in the list of failed state, no one ready to Play cricket in Pakistan because of security reasons.. please don't compere..

we know we lost that war due to lack of PAF support, it was logistically impossible.
now its all history who cares

Ya India won.. that's it..