Lockheed Martin signs pact with Tata to make F-16 planes in India

[StraightShooter]

When is it starting practically?

Vendor selection in 2021. Start of induction 2024. Long way to go..

SAAB or Sweden has never ever supplied any planes to IAF till date I think. USA and LM and Boeing both has. So we have a history there.

How does that matter?

 

[nang2]

Vendor selection in 2021. Start of induction 2024. Long way to go..



How does that matter?

in 4 years, requirements would have changed. what is the point of talking about it now at all?

 

[StraightShooter]

So late? But I guess all Mig 21s get laid off by 2025. Simply, does not match up the dates.

Unfortunately those are the timelines.

 

[That Guy]

in 4 years, requirements would have changed. what is the point of talking about it now at all?

LM wants to make as much money as it can, before the F16s become completely obsolete, which won't be long. This push is a desperate attempt at making money, before they're forced to move on to their other fighters.

 

[That Guy]

India prefers USA as a supplier as it has already dealt with them as is a known entity. Also F16 we will only hve to deal with USA, while for Gripen we have to deal with both SAAB Sweden and GE USA, which will be a headache. Though I personally like the Gripen E over the F16 Block70 with the GaaN AESA, the meteor missiles, etc. Howver, the prototype just flew a few days back, howver a much more modern platform than F16. Both has it's pros and cons.



USAF themselves targeting to keep it till service till 2048

"The U.S. Air Force (USAF) is looking to build upon its forthcoming service-life extension plan (SLEP) for its Lockheed Martin F-16C/D Block-40/42 and Block-50/52 fighters from 4,000 to 5,856 additional hours.

The Air Force greenlit the F-16 SLEP program in April with the aim of keeping its F-16 Block-40/42/50/52 fleet in service until 2048 by extending the fighter’s airframe life from 8,000 hours to 12,000 hours.

However, in its posting to the Federal Business Opportunities (FBO) website on June 12, the Air Force increased both the hours required from the SLEP as well as the number of F-16s from 300 to 841." I read it just couple of days back in quwa.org

This is misleading, as they're only extending the life, due to the fact that replacing all their F-16s would cost far too much. In other words, they have no choice in the matter.

 

[Hassan Guy]

There will not be full ToT on this deal for obvious reasons.
Neither Lockheed-Martin nor SAAB has full IP rights on all the components.

There is no incentive for engine manufacturers to give ToT.
Ejection seat manufacturers - no.
Forget getting US AESA tech, you might get some from SAAB, but I would
be surprised if that did not require You to buy some critical electronic components from SAAB.
There is still plenty of stuff that can be learned.

thats something that people are forgetting

 

[StraightShooter]

in 4 years, requirements would have changed. what is the point of talking about it now at all?

The RFP would be finalized and issued in 2018. So the requirements would be finalized and frozen by next year.

 

[jetray]

LM wants to make as much money as it can, before the F16s become completely obsolete, which won't be long. This push is a desperate attempt at making money, before they're forced to move on to their other fighters.

yes thats right, every one knows that but the game must be played. India buying f16's has got more to do with politics rather than any technical consideration. 90% probability India might not go for it. Given the way US imposes sanctions it would be horrible mistake to trust them.
Only gain would be if they transfer technology for engines but that might never happen.

 

[Papa Dragon]

Buying a US platform as our frontline or mainstay fighters that too in large numbers from the US would be the dumbest move India could ever make. The way how Trump has backed out from various agreements and treaties, how they withdrew support to various countries or supporting both sides of a conflict like the KSA vs Qatar and how they back stabbed many nations including Pak regarding the sale of F-16s are enough to say US is an unreliable partner and all it cares for is it's own interests.

I've seen many Indian members claiming it will create an aerospace ecosystem and what not but what LM is really trying to do is offload an obsolete tech where we will eventually see erroneous cost escalations where LM will make huge amounts of money while IAF will be left with an obsolete tech and I'm pretty sure US wouldn't accept for full ToT. Moreover F-16 has reached it's zenith of modernization and by the time LM sets up a plant, starts production - IAF may receive it's first jet by 2025 by which China and maybe even Pak would've acquired 5th gen fighters. PAF pilots also know the F-16s in and out and have been well versed with them, so even if IAF receives Blk-70, IAF may have an upper hand in BVR combat but PAF would definitely have an upper hand in WVR combat atleast for the first 5-7 years after induction. It is always better to rope in a technology partner like Dassault or some Russian firm and develop the AMCA and the GTX-Kaveri engine which could be used in both AMCA and LCA

 

[StraightShooter]

India prefers USA as a supplier as it has already dealt with them as is a known entity. Also F16 we will only hve to deal with USA, while for Gripen we have to deal with both SAAB Sweden and GE USA, which will be a headache. Though I personally like the Gripen E over the F16 Block70 with the GaaN AESA, the meteor missiles, etc. Howver, the prototype just flew a few days back, howver a much more modern platform than F16. Both has it's pros and cons.

some points to consider

1) No doubt that F-16 is a proven platform and block 70 is the latest and the greatest but PAF knows F-16s very well as they have been flying and building strategies for over 3 decades now. IAF would have tough time matching PAF

2) India would be the last customer for F-16s as everyone else is in the process of replacing their F-16s with F-35s. India cannot expect much spares or MRO business either

3) Gripen is a new platform and has potential for upgrades that could fulfill changing requirements of IAF in the next 15-20 years

4) SAAB is offering ToT on AESA while Northrop Grumman would not be sharing the APG-83 AESA tech.

5) If improved Kaveri engine could replace the engine in Tejas & F-16s, it could surely replace the Engine in Tejas and Gripen

6) SAAB would be sharing manufacturing tech while F-16s would only bring in final assembly tech to India

7) F-16s requires new set of weapons to be procured while Gripen can readily use expensive weapons like meteors that are being procured for RAFALEs

 

[StraightShooter]

LM wants to make as much money as it can, before the F16s become completely obsolete, which won't be long. This push is a desperate attempt at making money, before they're forced to move on to their other fighters.

LM has already moved on to the other fighter and that is called F-35

I also personally prefer the SAAB Gripen E, however USA is probably a stronger alliance and difficult to ignore their arm twisting. We are still not up there yet. We all are aware mostly it is geopolitics that play a more important role than technology in weapons acquisition, worldwide. During cold war we always operated comparatively inferior Russian weapons to tit's western counterpart which Pakistan operated, due to allainces that make sense at that point of time.

Very true. India needs US on its side and that reason alone would be enough for India to go with F-16s.

Buying a US platform as our frontline or mainstay fighters that too in large numbers from the US would be the dumbest move India could ever make. The way how Trump has backed out from various agreements and treaties, how they withdrew support to various countries or supporting both sides of a conflict like the KSA vs Qatar and how they back stabbed many nations including Pak regarding the sale of F-16s are enough to say US is an unreliable partner and all it cares for is it's own interests.

I've seen many Indian members claiming it will create an aerospace ecosystem and what not but what LM is really trying to do is offload an obsolete tech where we will eventually see erroneous cost escalations where LM will make huge amounts of money while IAF will be left with an obsolete tech and I'm pretty sure US wouldn't accept for full ToT. Moreover F-16 has reached it's zenith of modernization and by the time LM sets up a plant, starts production - IAF may receive it's first jet by 2025 by which China and maybe even Pak would've acquired 5th gen fighters. PAF pilots also know the F-16s in and out and have been well versed with them, so even if IAF receives Blk-70, IAF may have an upper hand in BVR combat but PAF would definitely have an upper hand in WVR combat atleast for the first 5-7 years after induction. It is always better to rope in a technology partner like Dassault or some Russian firm and develop the AMCA and the GTX-Kaveri engine which could be used in both AMCA and LCA

But India needs US to be on its side and this deal could help retain the relationship.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

India prefers USA as a supplier as it has already dealt with them as is a known entity. Also F16 we will only hve to deal with USA, while for Gripen we have to deal with both SAAB Sweden and GE USA, which will be a headache.

That is a misconception.
If India selects the F-16, You will have to deal with a large number of component manufacturers
which manufactures things like engine, radar, ejection seat, EW.

So prepare to negotiate with LM, GE (or P&W), Northrop Grumman, Raytheon, etc.

If there are no more orders between now and 2021, it is very likely that minor electronics components are OBSOLETED, and a Last Time Buy is issued, which might end before
India makes their selection.
The failure to purchase a single transistor, may make a whole subsystem unproducable.

Even if LM buys a stock, it might just be enough to keep the US fleet running,
and not allowed to be shipped to India for production.

Such problems will only be discovered once the contract is signed,
the fab line moved, and well on the way of building the first plane.

LM will then offer a redesign, where the redesign will be made in the US,
and they will expect to get paid like it was a F-35 project.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

See most Indians including me believe that Gripen E is a better and a more modern platform than the F16. However in weapons acquisition, there are other non-related parameters which plays a role worldwide besides technology and logistics. Geopolitics and alliances plays a huge role. USA is one of the leader in it while Sweden is a marginal player, even smaller to India. I personally feel even Israel is much more influential than Sweden in World Politics and influence. SAD but true, just saying facts that may influence the F16 purchase. I am a Gripen E fan btw. Beside managing multiple different vendors is a normal scenario in any jet fighter purchase, however in F16 mostly they all have a single country of origin while for Gripen E it is multiple country vendors to be managed, like engine USA, A2A Meteor, European consortium, etc. Cheers!!!

So maybe India should sign a distribution contract with SAAB,
and purchase all components from SAAB. That will not be for free, but reduces the hassle.
I am pretty sure that there will be other projects that can sweeten a deal, like working on
Aircraft Carriers.

 

[kris]

Agreed but i do not understand why PAF is silent for decades once thuder was invested back in 90 s now PAF can buy enough jets if it want if in 90 s it can invest 500 mill in thunder why can't we buy 27 years after 5 billion for 60 jets anyone can sell us

PAF has to throw the tender for 60 jets for 5 billions

5 billions for 60 jets?
What do you have in mind? You are unlikely to get a next gen jet at that price

No ToT. Just local final assembly.

As someone already said, unless something big happens between Trump and modi then USA grants full tot, this deal won't get through

No to local assembly

 

[#hydra#]

I don't know why people are so much excited about being a US ally,but US wants puppets not ally. I am telling again ,the way trump ditch many international pacts and the way he dealt with Quatar must be an eye opener,at begining they forces Saudi and UAE against Quatar later US secured a huge f15 deal with Quatar .