Lockheed Martin signs pact with Tata to make F-16 planes in India

[ashok mourya]

All are preparing for mrca tender.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

If India buys Gripen, then it makes sense to use exactly the same engine for LCA Mk II.

Any possible ideas of the local industrial partner for SAAB? Adani is being talked about.

http://www.livemint.com/Industry/Xe...-discussions-for-fighter-jet-manufacturi.html

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Any possible ideas of the local industrial partner for SAAB? Adani is being talked about.

http://www.livemint.com/Industry/Xe...-discussions-for-fighter-jet-manufacturi.html

Nope, I have visited SAAB, and know people involved with Gripen,
but that is not public information.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Nope, I have visited SAAB, and know people involved with Gripen,
but that is not public information.

Possible are --- Adani Group, Mahindra Aerospace, Reliance(though they're knee deep with Dassault).

 

[#hydra#]

Both of them doesnt offer anything India needs. If we want we can ask the Swedish to manage our programs in HAL and that's best what they can offer.

if the decision is to replace Mig 21 even normal Tejas (first initial 20 units) are more than good enough to replace those. Hell we are getting mk1A with AESA, HMD, refuelling probe etc and an MK2 with a powerful engine and a elongated fuselage for large combat radius. If these cannot replace Mig21 I dont know which can....

I am against F16. The Americans are not to be trusted. And they wont give us damn nor honour their promise. Hell they dont even define by what they mean full tot. They need to get Congressional approval for each and every tech transfer.

The way trump withdraws tie with Cuba,the way he withdraws from Paris climate pact is a warning for us. Americans will back stab anyone for their interest, when time comes.

 

[HAIDER]

Oops


We should also laugh


Not necessarily all, Tata already manufacture military goods.


Please enjoy the gift then


We would be happy to have them all, we earn on maintaining

I think it will be good learning for India. If they have money they should go for it. But, they need customer too to break even the cost of maintaining and updating the facility.

 

[ashok321]

Btw, Export control laws always depend on the country who holds the Intellectual property right. Why will Indiamake such a silly demand that doesnt even fall under its jurisdiction??

There is something called a "waiver" for which you have to negotiate hard with the seller to safeguard your interests. The deal will fall through, if India is left high & dry on this. You should know the basics of International trade matrix.

First of all LM will transfer the 40 years old jigs & machinery involved in Fort Worth Texas plant for which India will be paying in current dollars (valuation). After India gets satisfied with its share of 150 or 200 of such Falcons, what will be the next step on the money spent on the plant itself? If they cant export F-16 due to some constraints again as ever, why indulge into it? Why does not India get into "look before you leap" mode? Ask for some favorable conditions & waiver because its Indian dollars that will migrate from India to the US in this case.

How did India achieve the (almost) impossible 1-2-3 agreement by getting a waiver from 45 NSG members?
Follow these lines.

As for your example of TATA:

This was not a direct deal between Britain & TATA.

TATA bought this from Ford, who bought it from BMW. Hence Ford cant achieve the impossible to advance & grant all the rights to TATA. They can only pass on what they owned from BMW. Because everything is in black & white. Unless you are privy to an exclusive "sale agreement" between the TATA and the Ford and you know more on this, please come back to me. I will expound on this.

Next time please do not give indirect examples of which you yourself do not have knowledge of. And as for pulling the rabbits from under the black hat - Its being done everyday in Las Vegas, nothing new.

Come up with better comparison that hold some water in your case.

 

[Malik Alashter]

If india go with this deal with full ToT it will be a leap.

 

[Dash]

There is something called a "waiver" for which you have to negotiate hard with the seller to safeguard your interests.

What are you talking about man. And what water do my arguments have to hold?

And what is waiver, pls explain to me and then I will tell you what is not a waiver.

You should know the basics of International trade matrix.

Don't try to drop your half baked knowledge here, at least not on me. As the international trade matrix can be surpassed, has been superceeded, and will be "ignored" in future. Just like US "ignored " Pakistan nuclear ambitions and Russia ignored india's. That called political trade craft.

First of all LM will transfer the 40 years old jigs & machinery involved in Fort Worth Texas plant for which India will be paying in current dollars (valuation). After India gets satisfied with its share of 150 or 200 of such Falcons, what will be the next step on the money spent on the plant itself? If they cant export F-16 due to some constraints again as ever, why indulge into it? Why does not India get into "look before you leap" mode? Ask for some favorable conditions & waiver because its Indian dollars that will migrate from India to the US in this case.

This kind of argument is very much valid when India will step on more advanced territory of technology like EMALS or other things like. There will be strategic trade offs. Where we will be bound to look before we "leap".

In case of F 16s this case has been discussed with American deep state. And I'm not working in congress. But when you lift the ban on Indian companies, then change the relationship to strategic partnership and then set up DITT avenues to explore new technologies in defence you don't chicken out on one bloody F 16. And India is not asking entirely on ToT here. India has the technical base to develop Tejas (may not be as she would have wanted) but it lacks predominantly in Industrial production capability. The Indian DPSUs are not adequately equipped with the mindset as they are dolled out public money with nothing to loose. The idea behind private industry participation is to build accountability in defence manufacturing. That's the key here. We will stop our bargain just there and slowly build a case for more technology transfer just like we did in our software and automotive industry.


Your idea behind TATA and Jaguar is completely misplaced. Your participation in approaching a definite answer to my example is obstructing the argument so I won't step on.

You have to read India DPP carefully to assess the situation of GOI.

 

[ashok321]

What are you talking about man. And what water do my arguments have to hold?

And what is waiver, pls explain to me and then I will tell you what is not a waiver.

If you do not know the simple terms in trade negotiations, why even you started a dialogue with me?
And that also when the clearcut example is handed out to you a la 1-2-3 agreement.

On the second note, I see that you gave up on your own TATA example.

What does it show?
That you are coming with a mishmash dialogue of no substance!

Remember I did not knock your door, you came for a dialogue on the following absurd premise:

There is no need to sign MOU with GOI. As it won't go the mou way.

Do you even know that the MOU is prerequisite for any contract to take its shape wherein billions of dollars are at stakes? MOU is the first stage in the formation of a formal contract involving the understanding of two or more parties.

In which arms deal (involving billions) there is no MOU?

If you come with such things, the less I say the better.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

If india go with this deal with full ToT it will be a leap.

There will not be full ToT on this deal for obvious reasons.
Neither Lockheed-Martin nor SAAB has full IP rights on all the components.

There is no incentive for engine manufacturers to give ToT.
Ejection seat manufacturers - no.
Forget getting US AESA tech, you might get some from SAAB, but I would
be surprised if that did not require You to buy some critical electronic components from SAAB.
There is still plenty of stuff that can be learned.

 

[Super Falcon]

Throw some money , it will do the wonders

Agreed but i do not understand why PAF is silent for decades once thuder was invested back in 90 s now PAF can buy enough jets if it want if in 90 s it can invest 500 mill in thunder why can't we buy 27 years after 5 billion for 60 jets anyone can sell us

PAF has to throw the tender for 60 jets for 5 billions

 

[StraightShooter]

If india go with this deal with full ToT it will be a leap.

No ToT. Just local final assembly.

 

[hassamun]

Is Lockheed dumping F-16s on India?
By Vineet Khare BBC Hindi

Lockheed Martin and India's Tata Group have formalised an agreement to relocate the manufacturing of the most advanced F-16 fighter jets to India.

The effort is aimed at securing a multi-billion dollar deal from Delhi.

The announcement comes days ahead of Indian PM Narendra Modi's visit to Washington for a meeting with President Trump.

But some defence experts are accusing Lockheed of offloading obsolete aircraft on India.

What's in the deal?
India will be able to "produce, operate and export the multi fighter F-16 Block 70 aircraft", a joint release said.

"Contingent upon (the) US and Indian government agreement and approval, F-16 Block 70 aircraft would be produced exclusively in India," said a Lockheed Martin statement to the BBC.

"The F-16 Block 70, the next production version of the aircraft, would be the only F-16 version in production. As such, India would become the future home of F-16 production worldwide."

Many see the arrangement as a boost to Mr Modi's "Make in India" push, although it may take years to bear fruit.

Lockheed and Tata would have to win a formal bidding process to begin co-manufacturing.

Why does India need it?
India needs to replace over 200 aged MiGs that are already pushing the expiry date, experts say.

The Russian-supplied MIGs have faced criticism over the years for alleged malfunctioning and frequent crashes that have killed scores of Indian pilots.

Russians blame the crashes on poor Indian maintenance.

India has been trying to ease its traditional reliance on Russia by diversifying its buying options.

It bought French Rafales off the shelf in 2016 after lengthy and arduous negotiations.

Steeply escalating costs, poor after-sales service and a lack of sophisticated military equipment are the reasons cited by some analysts for the shift away from Russia.

The F-16s are said to be up against competition from Sweden's Saab group and its Gripen jets.

How cutting-edge are F-16s?

F-16s have dominated the global market for years. More than 3,000 of the multi-role aircraft are currently in use by 26 countries.

F-16 production in India will support thousands of jobs in the US, said a joint statement issued from Paris, apparently to counter expected criticism that the deal would fall foul of Mr Trump's "America First" policy.

They were originally conceived in the early 1970s as a "lightweight air-to-air day fighter".

But some commentators in India are asking if the agreement with the Tatas is an effort by Lockheed to offload old technology in India.

"India a dumping ground for obsolete weapons system?" asked defence expert Brahma Chellaney on Twitter.

"Lockheed Martin signs F-16 deal with Tata. Why Tata? Because they make the noisiest car?"

Defence writer Rahul Bedi agrees with Mr Chellaney.

"F-16s developed in the '70s have already reached the optimum level of modernisation. The US Air Force has phased them out in favour of the much more advanced F-35s," he told the BBC.

Russian-supplied MiGs have faced criticism over the years

In an email reply, Lockheed countered: "The F-16 remains the backbone of the US Air Force's frontline air fleet and the US Air Force plans to operate F-16s, alongside F-35s and other aircraft, for decades into the future.

"The US Air Force recently announced plans to extend the structural service life of up to 841 of its F-16s."

Could there be a roll-out delay?

Another worry is that it could take years for any F-16 to get off the assembly lines in India, assuming Lockheed-Tata win the tender and get on with the job of setting up manufacturing units.

The glacial pace of India's bureaucracy is a major cause for concern, with tenders, trials and manufacturer shortlists before anything can move on the ground.

"I fear it will take nearly a decade before we see the first aircraft. Who will then buy the technically obsolete F-16s?" asked Rahul Bedi.

Are there other risks for India?

Russia has long been considered a close Indian ally. For decades India bought Russian armaments to fulfil its defence needs.

But India's suggested pivot towards the US has come in for sharp criticism by some.

The Lockheed-Tata announcement could be seen through the same prism.

The feeling among the sceptics is that such closeness could cost precious Russian goodwill and Russia could get close to India's arch rival Pakistan, which India blames for fomenting "terror".

"The Russians are not in contention in the single engine aircraft race because they have nothing to offer," says Rahul Bedi.

"India's experience with Russia has been poor. The India deal to purchase aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov was for $960m. It finally agreed to pay $2.3bn due to severe cost escalation."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-40344566

 

[That Guy]

Won't believe it, until I see it. The Indian air force, the last time the viper was offered, weren't too keen on getting them, in fact, they seemed down right hostile.