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Lesson for PAF TT/Decision makers

Problem is AHQ guys along with GHQ guys are well groomed in US for staff college and other major programs ,Military establishment jut like bureaucracy feels keeping good relation ship with US can be one strategy to avoid their wrath of any kind and continue to serve under US block ,but in reality that pre 80s block has evovled after collapse of soviet union and NWO is created ,US currently needs India to deter to China but after China US will go after India who they will be needing then ? that why US diplomats always say Pak is important strategic partner but they dont need it till 2030 unless some thing big is going to happen . regarding buying US weapons .

https://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/risky-business-role-arms-sales-us-foreign-policy

Our policy makers specially military ones have to look East rather than West but hey scholarships and post retirement in US and West is more lucrative
 
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Hi,

You should avoid SELECTIVE READING---. I respond to you because you are a pakistani---maybe you might learn something---.

"Gripen has nothing extraordinary to a comparable BLK 2 JF17---" my quote.

I understand that english may not be your mother tongue---JF17 BLK2 is comparable to a COMPARABLE GRIPEN which would be a Gripen C/D---remember the word COMPARABLE---means similar in characteristics---.

Indeed SU30 is a great aircraft and I have praised that aircraft since you were running around in diapers---but the JF17 BLK 2 is no slouch either at BVR ranges---.

So---
in what scenario of air combat would you be using your 11 Hard points on your medium duty aircraft---.

So I am not Selective Reading your post. For the record.

Okay, Lets agree Gripen has nothing extraordinary to a comparable BLK 2 JF17. End of the story.

Aagin Uncle G, thanks for reminding me SU-30 is a great fighter aircraft which I have known for almost 3 years since when I started to show interest in aviation.

"Our enemy has M2k's SU30's MIG29's ---. We compete against them and not the F16 and the Typhoon." Your comment
SU-30 is one of the best fighter.
My reply.
Yes you are right JF-17 is compareable to SU-30 in BVR. What abour WVR Dogfights. I am showing my concerns over dogfights.

You can have as many JF-17 block 3s as you may want. But still there is NEED for Medium category fighters like compareable to F-16s.

Please keep this discussion to developement/procurement of Medium Category fighter.
 
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So I am not Selective Reading your post. For the record.

Okay, Lets agree Gripen has nothing extraordinary to a comparable BLK 2 JF17. End of the story.

Aagin Uncle G, thanks for reminding me SU-30 is a great fighter aircraft which I have known for almost 3 years since when I started to show interest in aviation.

"Our enemy has M2k's SU30's MIG29's ---. We compete against them and not the F16 and the Typhoon." Your comment
SU-30 is one of the best fighter.
My reply.
Yes you are right JF-17 is compareable to SU-30 in BVR. What abour WVR Dogfights. I am showing my concerns over dogfights.

You can have as many JF-17 block 3s as you may want. But still there is NEED for Medium category fighters like compareable to F-16s.

Please keep this discussion to developement/procurement of Medium Category fighter.

Hi,

Dog fights is a 50/50 preposition---even the famed 5th gen stealth aircraft become vulnerable up to a certain extent---.

What it comes down is to always fight from a position of strength---. That is what a good fighter pilot would do regardless---.
 
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conspiracy theories . initially there was a kill switch now american instructors spied for india.

So I am not Selective Reading your post. For the record.

Okay, Lets agree Gripen has nothing extraordinary to a comparable BLK 2 JF17. End of the story.

Aagin Uncle G, thanks for reminding me SU-30 is a great fighter aircraft which I have known for almost 3 years since when I started to show interest in aviation.

"Our enemy has M2k's SU30's MIG29's ---. We compete against them and not the F16 and the Typhoon." Your comment
SU-30 is one of the best fighter.
My reply.
Yes you are right JF-17 is compareable to SU-30 in BVR. What abour WVR Dogfights. I am showing my concerns over dogfights.

You can have as many JF-17 block 3s as you may want. But still there is NEED for Medium category fighters like compareable to F-16s.

Please keep this discussion to developement/procurement of Medium Category fighter.
most likely PAF will be used as defensive force in any future full scale conflict. we cant afford losing air crafts and pilots in an offensive mission involving deep strikes .PAF will be used to neutralize IAF within pakistani air space or closer to pakistani air space and indian ground forces closer to pakistan. for deep strikes we have developed missiles which can hit anywhere in india. so we dont need PAF to go in an environment with 4th gen jets like su 30 ,mirage 2000 ,rafale and s400. in defensive role PAF will use a mixed force of JFTs and F-16s backed by AWACS. JFTs will engage only in BVR role and if any indian fighter still survives the AMRAAMs of F-16s and SD 10s of JFTs then F-16 will engage in close combat. JFT cant even handle mirage 2000 well in close combat. the addition of PL 15 on JFT will be a great game changer and will make it the most advanced BVR jet in the region. but even then for close combat only the F-16s will do the job with JFTs only in support role.
 
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most likely PAF will be used as defensive force in any future full scale conflict. we cant afford losing air crafts and pilots in an offensive mission involving deep strikes .PAF will be used to neutralize IAF within pakistani air space or closer to pakistani air space and indian ground forces closer to pakistan. for deep strikes we have developed missiles which can hit anywhere in india. so we dont need PAF to go in an environment with 4th gen jets like su 30 ,mirage 2000 ,rafale and s400. in defensive role PAF will use a mixed force of JFTs and F-16s backed by AWACS. JFTs will engage only in BVR role and if any indian fighter still survives the AMRAAMs of F-16s and SD 10s of JFTs then F-16 will engage in close combat. JFT cant even handle mirage 2000 well in close combat. the addition of PL 15 on JFT will be a great game changer and will make it the most advanced BVR jet in the region. but even then for close combat only the F-16s will do the job with JFTs only in support role.
Finally a nice response and take on this matter.

most likely PAF will be used as defensive force in any future full scale conflict. we cant afford losing air crafts and pilots in an offensive mission involving deep strikes .PAF will be used to neutralize IAF within pakistani air space or closer to pakistani air space and indian ground forces closer to pakistan. for deep strikes we have developed missiles which can hit anywhere in india. so we dont need PAF to go in an environment with 4th gen jets like su 30 ,mirage 2000 ,rafale and s400. in defensive role PAF will use a mixed force of JFTs and F-16s backed by AWACS. JFTs will engage only in BVR role and if any indian fighter still survives the AMRAAMs of F-16s and SD 10s of JFTs then F-16 will engage in close combat. JFT cant even handle mirage 2000 well in close combat. the addition of PL 15 on JFT will be a great game changer and will make it the most advanced BVR jet in the region. but even then for close combat only the F-16s will do the job with JFTs only in support role.
Just one problem Pakistan gonna face is lack of Link-16 support by JF-17 and Link-17 by F-16 vice versa
 
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conspiracy theories . initially there was a kill switch now american instructors spied for india.


most likely PAF will be used as defensive force in any future full scale conflict. we cant afford losing air crafts and pilots in an offensive mission involving deep strikes .PAF will be used to neutralize IAF within pakistani air space or closer to pakistani air space and indian ground forces closer to pakistan. for deep strikes we have developed missiles which can hit anywhere in india. so we dont need PAF to go in an environment with 4th gen jets like su 30 ,mirage 2000 ,rafale and s400. in defensive role PAF will use a mixed force of JFTs and F-16s backed by AWACS. JFTs will engage only in BVR role and if any indian fighter still survives the AMRAAMs of F-16s and SD 10s of JFTs then F-16 will engage in close combat. JFT cant even handle mirage 2000 well in close combat. the addition of PL 15 on JFT will be a great game changer and will make it the most advanced BVR jet in the region. but even then for close combat only the F-16s will do the job with JFTs only in support role.


Hi,

What a third rate post---reeks of ignorance---.

@litman I don't know where yout got educated and what your education is---but if you had paid any attention to your subjects you would have learnt that

1. anything that has a Data Link---has a kill switch

2. anything that needs a password key to operate has a kill switch function

3. anything that needs a GPS guidance link has a kill switch

Learn---it will help you understand things & happening in life better---.

Which means that our JF17's also have a kill switch that we can deploy at our discretion---.


So I am not Selective Reading your post. For the record.

Okay, Lets agree Gripen has nothing extraordinary to a comparable BLK 2 JF17. End of the story.

Aagin Uncle G, thanks for reminding me SU-30 is a great fighter aircraft which I have known for almost 3 years since when I started to show interest in aviation.

"Our enemy has M2k's SU30's MIG29's ---. We compete against them and not the F16 and the Typhoon." Your comment
SU-30 is one of the best fighter.
My reply.
Yes you are right JF-17 is compareable to SU-30 in BVR. What abour WVR Dogfights. I am showing my concerns over dogfights.

You can have as many JF-17 block 3s as you may want. But still there is NEED for Medium category fighters like compareable to F-16s.

Please keep this discussion to developement/procurement of Medium Category fighter.

Hi,

You need to learn to share and discuss information in relation to function---being sarcastic or acting smart won't get you anywhere---.

The medium duty has a different function and utility---the question is that what are you going to use it for---.

If it is for air to air combat the JF17 BLK 3 would cover it all staying under the 5th gen umbrella---.

The only problem that is being faced is shortage in number of aircraft that Paf has---.

The JF17 BLk3 would be going neck with the Gripen NG---.

Our main concern now is the shortage in numbers---.

Do we need a bigger platform---it is the heavy strike platform that we desperately need with urgency---.
 
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Indians did a great job technically when they selected Rafale over US F-18 for MMRCA. From this move, they secured their future. From the past few years, IAF has bought many US military hardware included C17, C130, and P8i. Except for P8i, none is critical, first-line, or a primary defense weapon I would say.

The selection of an “American” weapon for your core defense is like you’re calling dalal to defend you at the time of rape attempt. That's more like you’re compromising both of your offensive and defensive capabilities. Americans are historical liars and blackmailers when it comes to your defense. Though I am also a big fan of their military technology.

They sent American spy(s) in the name of Instructors at our Jacobabad. Since then they're actively monitoring our activities. We know our super-duper BLK50/50 (One of the world’s most advanced fighter jet - Hell ya) are stationed there but what Americans are doing inside the base? obviously surveillance of our movement and communication along with monitoring of ouR (Purchased) F16s. In fact, they’re doing much more than that which we might be aware of but can’t do anything because of strings attached with the deal or maybe we have no idea (which is highly unlikely).

Americans are “opportunist”. The skill of playing politics with the American establishment while purchasing their weapons is an art. Indians did the same at the time of S-400 vs Patriots. Despite American pressure, they went for a Russian. They’re well aware of future repercussions and consequences. They’ve also sent a very clear picture Of their future naval procurement to the American establishment in which again there is no sign of F35. Having said that, they’ve still bought some of the critical weapons for their Navy (IN) and the reason of that was just because of similar objectives of Indian and US Navy which is very specific to China (containment of China’s power projection in the Asia Pacific).

We've literally compromised our National Security and completely failed to identify PAF needs since 90s when the American administration blocked the sales and stopped the transfer of our “paid” F16s. Till today, we’ve just 70+ front line fighters (mix of BLK15 + MLUs and BLK50/52) which I believe should be around 250+. JF17 can’t be your front line. Gen.Musharaf diverted funds of BlK50/52 towards the 2005 Earthquake which was IMO one of the worst decisions. Else the balance of power would be different (somehow).

We had tested Typhoon and Rafale in earlier 2000 (before India). However, we went for the FC which was specifically for the replacement of old fleet and dual engines A-5 in the PAF inventory. The procurement of FC had nothing to do with our front line deterrence. Despite having enough money to make a good deal with French, we continued with the vipers. Why it has happened simply because some of the top shits were obsessed with the Americans (sorry to say) but that's what it is and that's why we are still struggling.

TOT concept (reality V Facts): TOT doesn’t mean that you will get the full capability of making everything in-house. That's more like information, research, and knowledge sharing which is consists of 50%-60% of the overall project. That has exactly happened with the Indians in the PAK-FA project. They thought that Russians will probably share all the ingredients, but it was indeed a setback for them as well despite spending a massive amount of money. The concept of TOT is very different from what we usually understand. You still dependent on foreign components for instance, Chinese are dependent on Russian for “Engines”. We’ve lost the ATAK deal just because of American Engine in Turkish 129. This is a vogue concept that you’re getting everything in the transfer.

IAF selection of non-US hardware for their front-line (primary) weapon is a great lesson for PAF decision-makers. Retrospection is very important.

@MastanKhan @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @graphican @StormBreaker

No Free lunches.
Uncle SAM maybe evil but when push comes to shove Pakistan army can count these systems will work when compared to anything india got.

Uncle Sam Provided state of the art weapon system for the region to have a balance.
F16s, Zulus Majority of these platforms were almost free in start so i dont understand the issue.

European systems were not proven enough and didn't offer much in 4th Gen in late 80s and early 90s compared to uncle sam and Pakistan couldn't afford the high price as well thanks to economy.

Than came sanctions thats another story.

Before early 2000s Chinese systems were not proven neither were on same calibre, but things have changed.

You dont win wars simply on blind emotions, heck these same outdated spanked India last year even when India has numeric superiority how come you dont see regular attacks.
Pakistan armed with forces with all the flawe have created a balance with a much bigger force.
 
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Calm Down
Mr. Grinch
:rofl:
Hi,

Why do you kids make these posts without thinking---. Is there some kind of learning disabilities you guys have---.
grinch.gif
 
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Brother for me JF is an ordinary absolute ordinary aircraft but for PAF fanboys and for many, JF is basically raptor's competitor. I've already mentioned in my post the reason of JF17's induction.

For the bulk, ordinary would do.
Even though your explanation of Ordinary doesn't suffice, but with good new goodies coming with JF 17 III, the Ordinary would evolve to more than capable to deal with what India can throw at the moment.
We can fill the gap with AZM in coming years.
Dependence is not a wise policy, we should have learned by now. We should be working more towards self sufficiency, research and development. The Example of Turkey is there to follow.
No one saying it is easy, but we should do it because it is not easy.
Otherwise, India despite fooling its people for over 4 decades of "Indi Genius" products, have not much to show, when it comes to actual weapons. Samosa is also a start for them.

That's why the Indians have changed their strategy this week and have ordered 83 Samosa for tea, which will be served in Pakistan.

then it will be a different jet altogether
to accommodate everything at medium class level you will need to rework from start bigger fuselage bigger engine bigger wings it will be another jet with only similarity in name.

Agreed.

But the difference is that it would be easier to supersize JF 17 then going in to whole new design and research and development Cycle.

I personally think PAF/PA think outside the box and work with Chinese on completely different design and R & D to come up with a new aircraft from point zero.
That would give us expertise for future, including help with our project (s) under AZM.
Progress should be made from the experience of JF 17 rather than sticking to the one project different products.
 
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Having an indigenous or a “not so common (less Air Forces use it that is)” combined with the secrecy of Included tech gives you an upper hand (Thunders for PAF), No one knows much about the Fighter, atleast the critical details of mission profiles.

So this is a psychological victory or sort of an upper hand over enemy, Keeps them guessing.

IAF has been lucky since some years, They finalized Rafale, Then they now finalized Tejas.

We can talk all crap we can about LCA but I am pretty optimistic, The present plans of IAF with regards to MK1A and MK2 pose a serious threat to PAF, A really serious one, One that will leave our usual brag of Block 3 insignificant.

Plus, We are stuck with the stupid notion of Light fighter, Medium sized fighters are the power horses, Their range and Weapons capacity with enough size to accommodate some important avionics as well as lethality, Makes them the best choice for Air forces with restricted budgets.

But still... “Thunder thunder”, “Block 3” bla bla bla.

Neither are we aiming for numbers, What a joke really...

There is always a room for J-10C but that is not the topic for discussion here...

AZM should be delayed, Block 4 should be worked on with heavy reworks to bring it into a full Medium weight fighter.
Ofcourse it does...83 mk1a will cost 6billion $...
PAF can get ADDITIONAL 100j10s or build 250 jf17 with that...
Just plugging the huge numbers will be an issue..and thats not it..IAF is still going with 120 foreign jets
 
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I guess the focus of the thread is again diverted from the frontline to the second/third line of aircraft. JF even with super-duper capabilities can't be your frontline. JF nowhere capable to go for offensive adventure or even head to head with Mig 29, SU30, Rafale in any environment. I am specifically talking about our front line F16 V India's SU30, MIG29, and now Rafale. I believe the numbers are too less at this point to counter large ariel threat.
 
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Problem is AHQ guys along with GHQ guys are well groomed in US for staff college and other major programs ,Military establishment jut like bureaucracy feels keeping good relation ship with US can be one strategy to avoid their wrath of any kind and continue to serve under US block ,but in reality that pre 80s block has evovled after collapse of soviet union and NWO is created ,US currently needs India to deter to China but after China US will go after India who they will be needing then ? that why US diplomats always say Pak is important strategic partner but they dont need it till 2030 unless some thing big is going to happen . regarding buying US weapons .

https://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/risky-business-role-arms-sales-us-foreign-policy

Our policy makers specially military ones have to look East rather than West but hey scholarships and post retirement in US and West is more lucrative

looking towards east is not promising
apart from the exception of Huawei 5G . there is hardly anything ground breaking and original. its "modernized" outlook is a mix of some hacked western design and Russian technology.

I cant fault PAF for its longing for Western jets.
 
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worth it as compared to depending on Yankees

What I see objectively in your posts is that you have firmly made up your mind and now are trying to impose it on others. Making up your mind is all good, imposing on others not a bright idea.

If you have money to throw, everything is a good idea. So let Indians throw their money where they want.
For example, my personal choice is F 15 E rather than F 16s. But we never getting them. So that is that.
I would be foolish to drag the line that Pakistan should acquire or should have acquired F 15 E.

For PAF it always had been about choices, availability and constraints in budgetary allocations.
If IAF had been hamstrung like PAF from these choices, IAF would be in doldrums.

Therefore, after considering everything, in my opinion, PAF did what they could do with restrictions due to willingness of suppliers, money constraints etc.
 
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