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LCA Tejas Mk-2 testing by 2017: DRDO chief

Why man? o_O
Mk1 was our first attempt. So, it got some problems.
Same things have happened with our helis and missiles too.
Dhruv and Agni 1 were duds and now, LCH and A3P are pretty nice.
We take time to develop when we try something new. But we develop nice things further on the platform.
It's still a good platform
When you field it against Say Nigeria Air Force at 2024.
 
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Yes, but even by IAF standards, that is a sizable fleet to contend with.

Care to explain, because with the superior air defence system of India, they would be defensive, and what indian standard are you talking -- do you find any disadvantage to IAF with 100 Upgraded Mig 29UPG and Mirrage 2000UPG, 110 Jaguar Darlin 3, Mig 27UPG backed by MKI/super MKI for air superiority plus Mig 29K of Indian Navy.

But we are referring to the present, are we not? By 2030 India's neighbors would've progressed the same in terms of modernization.

By 2030 so what do you think would be the indian projection.

LCA MK-1 -- 120 nos replacing Mig 21/Mig 27
LCA MK-2 -- ?? replacing MIg 29/ Mirrage 2000
Super Sukhoi -- 350 nos
Rafale F-3/4 -- 100+ nos replacing Jaguar
FGFA -- 36 nos


Neither the Pakistanis nor the Chinese do things for "prestige". A system either meets military requirements or it doesn't; the brass has neither the time nor the money to entertain such notions. The WS-10 was inducted because it provides a higher thrust (and supposedly longer lifespan) than the Al-31 variants used on the earlier J-10s.



Well that was the compliment for the Chinese, but what I have observed, whenever china goes for the project, refered by some as reverse engineers, the chinese starts a parallel program with the indegenous. Problem with the WS-10 is the reliability, low TBO and uneconomical production present, however it would surely be solved in future. Even ADA could fly LCA Tejas on the present Kaveri Engine with lower thrust.

The Su-33 has stopped development a long time ago, and whether or not the Russians had issues with its design (they didn't) has no bearing on the development of the J-15, which, besides the airframe, is an uniquely independent aircraft. The fact that the Russians chose to develop the MiG-29K instead doesn't say anything about the J-15's capabilities besides that the two aircraft offer different advantages that happen to be viewed differently by the two countries.

Check out in google, Russians are working on Su-33 from the skijump offshore facilities in Black Sea.

And that is relevant to our discussion of the J-15's capabilities because...?

You posted the picture of the J-15, thats why.

The J-20 is like any other fifth generation aircraft; it might be designed to excel in certain situations, but that does not preclude it from undertaking other roles.

Point is J-20 is not meant for India and will be specifically for Chinese eastern neighbors.

I do not know why you are drawing up a situation in which the PLAAF's low-end fighters would have to solely contend with the entire IAF fleet, a situation that is far too quixotic to begin with. As for high-altitude takeoffs, the aircraft stationed in Tibet, which are almost exclusively Su-27s, will be configured for A2A missions, which will be relatively lightweight vis-a-vis loadouts for multirole aircraft.

Point is when you take off from the high altitude, either you are lightly loaded, or when heavily loaded lightly fuelled and later ariel refuelled but you are lightly loaded only during air defence, and not in strike profile. Indians on the other hand would take off from the lower altitude strips, and would be mainly on the airdefence configuration.


If the Chinese were seeking to obtain Russian radars/weapons/etc., they would not have (1) purchased merely 24 Su-35s or (2) planned to retrofit them with Chinese avionics and weaponry. Another clue working against your theory is the continued testing of similar-performing fighter aircraft like the J-11D.

J-11 is been build from the blue prints which bought from the former Soviet part Ukraine along with various avionics, LRU's, actuators which spring off Chinese capabilities in quick time and the reason why Russia alleged the IP right violation on China and demands penalties. But Ukraine could not give high end Radar and Turbofan Tech, which is deeply embedded deep inside the Russia.

The clue is Ukraine imported 30 billions of worth military hardware and China is the biggest importer of the Ukrainian hardwares. Remember profileration of KH-55 Kroshun cruise missile tech.

There are multiple Chinese institutions developing and deploying AESA-type radars, and have been doing so far longer than the Russians.

Leave aside AESA, can you tell me which seeker is inside the indigenous PL-12/10 BVRAAM.
 
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Care to explain, because with the superior air defence system of India, they would be defensive, and what indian standard are you talking -- do you find any disadvantage to IAF with 100 Upgraded Mig 29UPG and Mirrage 2000UPG, 110 Jaguar Darlin 3, Mig 27UPG backed by MKI/super MKI for air superiority plus Mig 29K of Indian Navy.

IAF's advantage in equipment and numbers does not preclude the Pakistani fleet from being a threat. A well-trained crew armed with 150 JF-17s is nothing to scoff at.

By 2030 so what do you think would be the indian projection.

LCA MK-1 -- 120 nos replacing Mig 21/Mig 27
LCA MK-2 -- ?? replacing MIg 29/ Mirrage 2000
Super Sukhoi -- 350 nos
Rafale F-3/4 -- 100+ nos replacing Jaguar
FGFA -- 36 nos

Yes, but other nations will also have modernized to their own accords.

Well that was the compliment for the Chinese, but what I have observed, whenever china goes for the project, refered by some as reverse engineers, the chinese starts a parallel program with the indegenous. Problem with the WS-10 is the reliability, low TBO and uneconomical production present, however it would surely be solved in future. Even ADA could fly LCA Tejas on the present Kaveri Engine with lower thrust.

The reliability problems with the WS-10 have been solved in 2009.

Check out in google, Russians are working on Su-33 from the skijump offshore facilities in Black Sea.

Well, how do you know such tests are for further development of the Su-33 as opposed to another piece of military equipment, or for training?

Furthermore, can you provide a reference to those alleged tests?

You posted the picture of the J-15, thats why.

The picture was a response to your claim that the J-15 could only carry A2A weaponry.

Point is J-20 is not meant for India and will be specifically for Chinese eastern neighbors.

I highly doubt the J-20 was designed with any specific nation in mind, but rather to maximize advantages with whatever equipment it will sport once in service.

Point is when you take off from the high altitude, either you are lightly loaded, or when heavily loaded lightly fuelled and later ariel refuelled but you are lightly loaded only during air defence, and not in strike profile. Indians on the other hand would take off from the lower altitude strips, and would be mainly on the airdefence configuration.

My point was, since the Chinese will be loading their Tibet-based Su-27s with primarily air-to-air missiles, load factor shouldn't be much of an issue, even with the thin air.

J-11 is been build from the blue prints which bought from the former Soviet part Ukraine along with various avionics, LRU's, actuators which spring off Chinese capabilities in quick time and the reason why Russia alleged the IP right violation on China and demands penalties. But Ukraine could not give high end Radar and Turbofan Tech, which is deeply embedded deep inside the Russia.

The J-11B/15/16 uses the same airframe design as the Su-27SK/UBK series, yes, but the other subsystems are unique to that subclass. The Chinese never intended to use Russian or Ukrainian avionics or weaponry aboard those aircraft in the first place.

The clue is Ukraine imported 30 billions of worth military hardware and China is the biggest importer of the Ukrainian hardwares. Remember profileration of KH-55 Kroshun cruise missile tech.

Most of Chinese imports from Ukraine consist of tank engines (which have been replaced by indigenous variants) and/or aircraft engines. I fail to see how this relates to the development and deployment of Chinese fighter subsystems.

Leave aside AESA, can you tell me which seeker is inside the indigenous PL-12/10 BVRAAM.

The seeker has been changed from time to time, and this is irrelevant to the development of fighter avionics.
 
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When you field it against Say Nigeria Air Force at 2024.
Our production line is pathetic sir. :D
Our provincial governments as well as private companies are claiming huge on aerospace. Let them develop that capacity. We have to arm our own AF with indigenous equipment first whose power is now declining and only dependent on license built Russian Flankers.
Only after overcome this, we would think of exports. :enjoy:
 
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Our production line is pathetic sir. :D
Our provincial governments as well as private companies are claiming huge on aerospace. Let them develop that capacity. We have to arm our own AF with indigenous equipment first whose power is now declining and only dependent on license built Russian Flankers.
Only after overcome this, we would think of exports. :enjoy:
You might have F16 in the future.
 
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You might have F16 in the future.
Nah!, if a first class medium or light fighter can be developed by 2024, we must wait.
Yet I would advice IAF to immediately pack up from project if not occurs in 2024, because project will be ready overshoot.
 
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IAF's advantage in equipment and numbers does not preclude the Pakistani fleet from being a threat. A well-trained crew armed with 150 JF-17s is nothing to scoff at.

Yes but IAF too with the high nos of training hours, and there are no 150 JF-17 in numbers, nor it has achieved its full capabilities and integration, nor I have any information of any FOC certification

Yes, but other nations will also have modernized to their own accords.

So do the IAF, the whole discussion started from the Indian members commenting India in a pathetic position in front of PAF, and PLAAF and my point is yes with PLAAF it has disadvantage, but don't think China have a plan to invade India, and have many important issues specially in her eastern sector and with PAF India have superior number and superior quality.

The reliability problems with the WS-10 have been solved in 2009.

Congratullation then !! Can you quote the MTO hours and whether its more economical to produced than buying Ai31 off the shelf.

Well, how do you know such tests are for further development of the Su-33 as opposed to another piece of military equipment, or for training?

Because no one setup the ski jump ring in the costal region for the training purpose for the plane, which is not been designed for the carrier operation but the point is the core issue, which hampers Su33 to Ski jump with the full load, from the short distance of the carrier operation 200-250 m takeoff length.

The picture was a response to your claim that the J-15 could only carry A2A weaponry.

That will prove the stuctural strength, but the pic with heavy load take off from the deck of the carrier will prove that, it is a true multirole capable carrier based fighter plane, which can carry A2A, and heavy anti ship cruise missile simultaneously e.g which MIG -29K is.

I highly doubt the J-20 was designed with any specific nation in mind, but rather to maximize advantages with whatever equipment it will sport once in service.

OK, thats why I guess where it is most benificial aka the area which will make the no fly zone for the US/NATO fighter planes like F-35, and Growlers to attain air superiority and take on SEAD mission.

My point was, since the Chinese will be loading their Tibet-based Su-27s with primarily air-to-air missiles, load factor shouldn't be much of an issue, even with the thin air.

But for the Strike mission, you need heavy load.

The J-11B/15/16 uses the same airframe design as the Su-27SK/UBK series, yes, but the other subsystems are unique to that subclass. The Chinese never intended to use Russian or Ukrainian avionics or weaponry aboard those aircraft in the first place.

Point is if you have a proven design, you would speed up the development process because if create a subsystem which works perfectly well, but not necessary the whole systems gives the desired result, but working on the proven system design and in this case the airframe of the proven Su 27, you remove the risk of failure, and kickstart you project in small time, than to create the whole product from the scratch.

I certainly believe that China have the capability to design the whole aircraft from the scratch, but the way they are doing the development like J-10 -- from the Lavi project, j11B/15/16 from Su27 blue prints and the airflight data speeds up the process, and to show our Indians members who are cursing our scientists to be too slow, and to show you the urgency shown by your leaders for the threat, which they considered as the priority.

In the same way how the fighter plane meant for the export the FC-1 design was purchased from the third country, that makes such a speedy development because the design was already created, and I don't want to discuss whether it is a Soviet single engine Mig 1.44 project or Dassault/Romanian IAR-95 design.

Most of Chinese imports from Ukraine consist of tank engines (which have been replaced by indigenous variants) and/or aircraft engines. I fail to see how this relates to the development and deployment of Chinese fighter subsystems.

A fighter plane development will speed up, if they are based on the blue print copy of the proven design, with the tooling, jigs, dies design and the subsystems like actuator, hydraulic, FCS, sensors, power generator, fuel pumps landing gears design with data to study and create indigenous components, whether to copy or modify/upgrade it because lot of time is not only required to design and build it but also to certify it, and there is no short cuts for the R&D. And Ukraine in the small window of the opportunity for the China gets the much needed cash, and China gets the tech. to jump start various indigenous projects by pumping large amount of money.

The seeker has been changed from time to time, and this is irrelevant to the development of fighter avionics.

The seekers have to be integrated with the Radars guidance system to work, and the Seeker is coming from the Russia which is of import variant of R-77 AE EW BVRAAM, and in case of Radar, you can assemble T/R modules antenna Gimble, Backend Radar computer, but actually Radar, is mostly Software, and lot of work was done by Russian OEM Zhuk scientists for China.
 
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Brother on the serious note PAF is loosing 8 aircraft due to irritation and phrasing out per year.
The best aircraft of PAF are new18 F-16 block 52. There is lot of concern in Pakistan regarding the power disparity with the Indian Airforce, and now also evolving Indian Naval Aviation force. Even with the MLU F-16 and the newest block of F-16, the problem for the PAF is the lack of funds, and you can read the whole thread in PDF about the pakistan's answer to the Indian Rafale thread. So what makes PAF go for the FC-1 designated JF-17, was that the capability what PAF wanted was not available for the PAF e.g BVRAAM was not available for F-16, same it is not available to Egypt, so it does not matter how many F-16 does Egypt field against Israel, it will be in the disadvantage. It was JF-17 from which long range BVR came to Pakistan, which ultimately lead to the release of the Aim-120 C-5 -- 500 nos from the US to get approved.

Most of the Pakistani members thinks that JF-17 is very cheaper alternative to replaced the ageing old PAFs fighter aircraft, but they fail to understand that JF-17 might be cheaper in fly away cost, but costly in operating them, due to low MTO of the Russian Engine, and PAF already have low budget. They fail to understand that the F-16 they operate have disadvantage against the IAF due to lack of AESA, and passive sensors such as IRST. There are some members like @MastanKhan who thinks that PAF decission makers are idiots and baffoon, but he fails to understand they are doing the best with the budget, threat, and requirement in consideration. These types of decessions are not made on the gut feelings but lot of observations, planning and analysis. The best decission was the induction of AEW in PAF to nullify the IAF superiority.

Now coming to the point MIrrage 3/5 are very old and needs to get replaced, but it would take a while to replace them because what I hear in the PDF, that there is a plan to get them replaced with JF-17, for the naval strike role, which would be a bad decisions, due to the lack of the endurance, load carrying capacity. Now Pakistan would like to replaced mirrage with Su-35, J-16 but problem is Su-35 is clear for export to pakistan, and J-16, J-11 have IP violation problem so again not available. This shows not only the problem of the funds but also the problem of the Choice.
For PAF large nos of Q-5, J-7 again means less capable aircraft, with low cost, but high operating cost, same problem what IAF hard find out using the Soviet/Russian aircraft that they were low costly to buy, but on the long run costly then the western part. Again J-7 have less endurance, low radar range around 35 KM, and could not stand strong in front of 4th Gen fighter planes such as Mirrage 2000 UPG, MIg 29UPG, LCA MK-1.

Feel free to disagree with me. IF you have some points pls do share.

Thanks
Agreed with 1st paragraph

For 2nd paragraph
Most what you said is right except for the JFT's operating cost... the reason is the Russian engine JFT is using is a modified one which is RD-93MA so do not have such extent of the issue that old engine had regarding fuel consumption and life cycle cost and since JFT is home made so operating cost comes down allot as compared to a licensed produced products or to imported stuff....
About F-16 not having is AESA the answer would be as PAF's doctrine is more of a defensive one than being offensive so having AWACS systems solves that issue in the end all you need is a Good BVR missile and a nice relatively huge target coming towards you while asking for it :) :P..... (But you must know that JFT would be equipped with AESA and IRST so problem going to be solved soon)

For 2nd paragraph
Again most of it is correct but again it all depends on the doctrine of our naval forces which is not to be in a naval blockade and be on the defensive role you might be right that it would be better to have SU-35 or J-16 for that role but having JFT for it is not a bad decision but an OK one (not that good or not that bad type) i mean it can be the BEST BANG FOR THE BUCK and since the Block 2 would also be able to carry 2000 LB of more payload meaning from 3600 kg the payload is increased to near 5000 KGs which is a decent payload for naval strikes... Because JFT has an enough ferry range to act as an defensive air arm and can match any Fighter mentioned above from Mirage 2000 to Mig 29UPG to LCA MK-1...... :)
 
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Brother on the serious note PAF is loosing 8 aircraft due to irritation and phrasing out per year.
The best aircraft of PAF are new18 F-16 block 52. There is lot of concern in Pakistan regarding the power disparity with the Indian Airforce, and now also evolving Indian Naval Aviation force. Even with the MLU F-16 and the newest block of F-16, the problem for the PAF is the lack of funds, and you can read the whole thread in PDF about the pakistan's answer to the Indian Rafale thread. So what makes PAF go for the FC-1 designated JF-17, was that the capability what PAF wanted was not available for the PAF e.g BVRAAM was not available for F-16, same it is not available to Egypt, so it does not matter how many F-16 does Egypt field against Israel, it will be in the disadvantage. It was JF-17 from which long range BVR came to Pakistan, which ultimately lead to the release of the Aim-120 C-5 -- 500 nos from the US to get approved.

Most of the Pakistani members thinks that JF-17 is very cheaper alternative to replaced the ageing old PAFs fighter aircraft, but they fail to understand that JF-17 might be cheaper in fly away cost, but costly in operating them, due to low MTO of the Russian Engine, and PAF already have low budget. They fail to understand that the F-16 they operate have disadvantage against the IAF due to lack of AESA, and passive sensors such as IRST. There are some members like @MastanKhan who thinks that PAF decission makers are idiots and baffoon, but he fails to understand they are doing the best with the budget, threat, and requirement in consideration. These types of decessions are not made on the gut feelings but lot of observations, planning and analysis. The best decission was the induction of AEW in PAF to nullify the IAF superiority.

Now coming to the point MIrrage 3/5 are very old and needs to get replaced, but it would take a while to replace them because what I hear in the PDF, that there is a plan to get them replaced with JF-17, for the naval strike role, which would be a bad decisions, due to the lack of the endurance, load carrying capacity. Now Pakistan would like to replaced mirrage with Su-35, J-16 but problem is Su-35 is clear for export to pakistan, and J-16, J-11 have IP violation problem so again not available. This shows not only the problem of the funds but also the problem of the Choice.
For PAF large nos of Q-5, J-7 again means less capable aircraft, with low cost, but high operating cost, same problem what IAF hard find out using the Soviet/Russian aircraft that they were low costly to buy, but on the long run costly then the western part. Again J-7 have less endurance, low radar range around 35 KM, and could not stand strong in front of 4th Gen fighter planes such as Mirrage 2000 UPG, MIg 29UPG, LCA MK-1.

Feel free to disagree with me. IF you have some points pls do share.

Thanks

Hi,

Thank you for indadvertantly proving one of my major points---and why did I not think of it---hehn---.

Accordingly---the JF17's got the BVR missiles----so as the balance of power is not changed---we got the aim 120---similar to the sd10B---.

On the same toke I stated---if we had gone for the J10C with AESA---it would have been much easier to get the AESA for the F16's as well---because then the U S is not the game changer---.

The paf is not iddiots or baffoons----but they are " THICK HEADED "---they live in a different world---revolving around the 1965 war and shooting of cheap russian aircraft during the 80's conflict.
 
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Yes but IAF too with the high nos of training hours, and there are no 150 JF-17 in numbers, nor it has achieved its full capabilities and integration, nor I have any information of any FOC certification

Even the current fleet of 50+ JF-17s and whatever quantity of F-16s will be a threat in the hands of the well-trained.

So do the IAF, the whole discussion started from the Indian members commenting India in a pathetic position in front of PAF, and PLAAF and my point is yes with PLAAF it has disadvantage, but don't think China have a plan to invade India, and have many important issues specially in her eastern sector and with PAF India have superior number and superior quality.

I think it's important to realize that India isn't the only country replacing its aging aircraft whilst inducting new ones.

Congratullation then !! Can you quote the MTO hours and whether its more economical to produced than buying Ai31 off the shelf.

I think the consensus is that the WS-10 now has a lifespan of 1500 hours.

Because no one setup the ski jump ring in the costal region for the training purpose for the plane, which is not been designed for the carrier operation but the point is the core issue, which hampers Su33 to Ski jump with the full load, from the short distance of the carrier operation 200-250 m takeoff length.

They might not be using it for training; I was simply putting forth an illustrative example. Flying Su-33s off a ramp could serve a myriad of purposes. We cannot definitively say that the Su-33 is still being developed, especially when the production line has been shut down and it has been pretty clear that the Russians are dedicating themselves to the MiG-29.

That will prove the stuctural strength, but the pic with heavy load take off from the deck of the carrier will prove that, it is a true multirole capable carrier based fighter plane, which can carry A2A, and heavy anti ship cruise missile simultaneously e.g which MIG -29K is.

An aircraft's maximum loadout while flying off a ski-ramp is a quality of the ski-ramp, not necessarily that of the aircraft itself.

OK, thats why I guess where it is most benificial aka the area which will make the no fly zone for the US/NATO fighter planes like F-35, and Growlers to attain air superiority and take on SEAD mission.

The J-20 should perform adequately in most air superiority situations.

But for the Strike mission, you need heavy load.

If the Chinese were looking to base strike fighters in Tibet, they wouldn't have deployed Su-27s there, but rather the much-more-powerful J-16 (or perhaps the older JH-7A).

Point is if you have a proven design, you would speed up the development process because if create a subsystem which works perfectly well, but not necessary the whole systems gives the desired result, but working on the proven system design and in this case the airframe of the proven Su 27, you remove the risk of failure, and kickstart you project in small time, than to create the whole product from the scratch.

Correct, which is why the Chinese looked to use the Su-27's basic airframe design.

I certainly believe that China have the capability to design the whole aircraft from the scratch, but the way they are doing the development like J-10 -- from the Lavi project, j11B/15/16 from Su27 blue prints and the airflight data speeds up the process, and to show our Indians members who are cursing our scientists to be too slow, and to show you the urgency shown by your leaders for the threat, which they considered as the priority.

The J-10 wasn't developed from the Lavi; this was denied by both the Chinese and the Israelis.

In the same way how the fighter plane meant for the export the FC-1 design was purchased from the third country, that makes such a speedy development because the design was already created, and I don't want to discuss whether it is a Soviet single engine Mig 1.44 project or Dassault/Romanian IAR-95 design.

The JF-17 design wasn't purchased anywhere. There might be structural similarities between the JF-17's design and those of the aircraft that you've mentioned, but there is no evidence that the projects are related.

A fighter plane development will speed up, if they are based on the blue print copy of the proven design, with the tooling, jigs, dies design and the subsystems like actuator, hydraulic, FCS, sensors, power generator, fuel pumps landing gears design with data to study and create indigenous components, whether to copy or modify/upgrade it because lot of time is not only required to design and build it but also to certify it, and there is no short cuts for the R&D. And Ukraine in the small window of the opportunity for the China gets the much needed cash, and China gets the tech. to jump start various indigenous projects by pumping large amount of money.

And how does any of this relate to or account for the fact that the lion's share of current Ukrainian military exports to the Chinese are mainly in the engine and land forces sector?

The seekers have to be integrated with the Radars guidance system to work, and the Seeker is coming from the Russia which is of import variant of R-77 AE EW BVRAAM, and in case of Radar, you can assemble T/R modules antenna Gimble, Backend Radar computer, but actually Radar, is mostly Software, and lot of work was done by Russian OEM Zhuk scientists for China.

There is no conclusive evidence that the PL-12's seeker is the same as the one aboard the R-77. There are multiple variants of the PL-12, so even if the aforementioned were true, the seekers would've almost certainly been replaced at this point.

Chinese AESA development did not involve the work of Zhuk engineers. In fact, the Chinese have probably developed far more numerous and potent AESA sensors than have the Russians.
 
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