LCA Tejas Mk-2 testing by 2017: DRDO chief

[Shariq786]

1. Role of Tejas and JF are different. JF is made for going in combat ground and bombing meanwhile Tejas is made for defending skies. No need for comparison.
2. Don't compare yourself with India on the basis of JFT. JFT is result of ToT from Chengdu.
It's name FC-1 Xiaolong is still dominant over JFT in all other forums.

So?
No country has made Stealth Fighter in 10 years.
Schedule is 2025, and will overshoot to 2030.
Even, then, acquiring an indigenous stealth fighter won't be a common achievement.
By the way, have you guys any such programs.

we don't have the need to have such a program cuz our enemy is not posing that kind of a threat atleast not until 2030 untill then we can relax save up cash and buy a 5th gen platform with TOT from our closest ally i(u know who i m referring to) .....

I also know but we can run the project further till we get even small squadron of FGFAs(which can further be integrated into India's indigenous program.)
Moreover, if cost crosses it's limits, yes, we ca ln scrap the project. We aren't dying of shortage of fighters. Can wait for some time to get our own.
because you may be aware that our 4G fighter is also not weakling.

Neither ours it can meet any fighter in the opposing fleet and work as a low cost nuetralizer.... and BTW you are in a shortage of fighters untill you decide to leave your LCA and buy something from the market cuz even LCA MK-1 is nowhere near mass production untill 2017 and even after that it wouldn't be enough to replace all you retiring jets till 2025 while on the other hand we don't face that issue

Sure mate.
JFT is made for frontline fight after F-16s like planes and can help your country to maintain strength in lower budget because of lower cost too. Given it's range, it can be used for bombing in enemy territory.
It's induction in large numbers indicates it gonna be backbone of PAF.
Meanwhile, India has much better options for this role. Su30 MkI(now trying for MMRCA) and have enough money to maintain strength at high cost.

SU 30 MKIis good for you cuz your borders are quite larger than us so thats why..... where as we have no need of a dual engine Jet as much as you need it.. Our JF 17 meets each and every requirement as its small fast cheap and fit for every role from A2A A2G and A2Sea like every modern 4G fighter Jet out their while having low cost (except it being a light aircraft).....
Although Block 3 would be a different beast altogether

By the way, our threats are larger too. We have to lovely and peaceful neighbors like China and Pakistan.
And also we are getting addicted to that so called power projection (flaunting capabilities).
Like we developed our Navy in long term and it's unchallenged in IOR,
our army is now on right way after privatisation(projects are not getting delayed),
and it's improving in both quantity and quality.
So, obviously we will seek next such plan to get our AF to good track as well.
Private Co's of India are collaborating with foreigners for license production and later use that skill and experience in indigenization.
And many states are also building aerospace hubs to develop tech.
And as economy is expanding, and tech is getting edge now, we are accelerating.
Aren't facing much problems and delays as compared to before.
Let's see what happens but I hope we could get a breakthrough here too.

thats what i said your threats and requirement are different why bringing standards in it

 

[Bad Guy]

we don't have the need to have such a program cuz our enemy is not posing that kind of a threat atleast not until 2030 untill then we can relax save up cash and buy a 5th gen platform with TOT from our closest ally i(u know who i m referring to) .....


Neither ours it can meet any fighter in the opposing fleet and work as a low cost nuetralizer....



SU 30 MKIis good for you cuz your borders are quite larger than us so thats why..... where as we have no need of a dual engine Jet as much as you need it.. Our JF 17 meets each and every requirement as its small fast cheap and fit for every role from A2A A2G and A2Sea like every modern 4G fighter Jet out their while having low cost (except it being a light aircraft).....
Although Block 3 would be a different beast altogether


thats what i said your threats and requirement are different why bringing standards in it

Correct in your summary.
By the way, I used word standard in place of requirement.
Never mind na.

 

[EAK]

Jf is still inferior to current tejas mk1 & their is no sign of blk 3 which will be inferior to mk 1a we need to scrap tejas mk 2 & move on to AMCA or we will be late again & will be inducting 5th generation fighter when rest of the world already moven to 7th

 

[Bad Guy]

I was ending up thread peacefully.
And I have told that LCA and JFT have different roles.
So, what was need of trolling?

 

[EAK]

I was ending up thread peacefully.
And I have told that LCA and JFT have different roles.
So, what was need of trolling?

that bold line i quoted cracked me up.. whats with you ..

 

[Bad Guy]

that bold line i quoted cracked me up.. whats with you ..

I have disapproved him already and explained the matter briefly. So, cracking up wasn't needed.

 

[EAK]

I have disapproved him already and explained the matter briefly. So, cracking up wasn't needed.

LOL.. dude freedom of expression..

 

[Shariq786]

BTW @Bad Guy didn't know that INDIA had any such 5th gen program going on till now all i heard was that INDIA has invested in PAK-FA rather than putting the same money in your own AMCA which turned out to be a disaster for you guys and the AMCA is still just a paper diagram till now so that means even if you start AMCA now the reputation of DRDO wouldn't allow AMCA to be completed (without foreign help) to be completed by 2045 mass production year or minimum 2035 (with foreign help) to even get to mass production process.... [further info will be appreciated if provided regarding the topic]

So technically even INDIA doesn't have such a program in running...

And about JFT program just to make it clear this was a baby step for us in aircraft industry which turned out to be an Awesome leap for our aviation industry and by 2019 we will be producing the whole aircraft except for engines and few sub systems domestically at Kamra stated by the officials so yes it might sound like TOT but now we know how to make an aircraft from scratch which will lead to more advancements in the future

And on a serious note the only difference between TEJAS being called indigenous and JFT being JV is that PAK and CHINA signed a contract to share the profits and loses and cost of the project ... Meaning China made the Design for JFT same as the Tejas design is from France, CHINA did put the major systems in JFT same as the Ruskies and Israeli's and few other western countries doing in Tejas, JFT's Radar is from CHINA and Tejas radar is from Israel and Tejas engine would be from US i believe and JFT's engine is from Russia rest is nearly the same as stated by your own people that INDIA makes 60% of the aircraft Indigenously where as PAK makes 59% of the aircraft in PAK at kamra (which will go upto 80% till 2019) but as INDIA didn't signed any such of a contract with any one and holds 100% shares on the aircraft so it is considered as indigenous and JFT as a JV because both parties share 50% of the shares... not only Chinese but a JV between Pak and CHINA AND I M NOT TROLLING READ IT WITH A COOL MIND AND REPLY SENSIBLY

I mean if you look it this way that its PAK first time in jet industry and its selling a 4 gen fighter i mean the latest tech around the globe which can carry latest weaponry from BVR's missiles to anti-ship missiles which can threaten any fighter jet and ships around the globe doesn't matter which origin is it from or how expensive and advance it is (not including 5th cuz 5th generation is still not proven and still having few glitches)..... this fighter could do the same job as they can at a very lower cost while having massive upgradation capabilities too and can absorb newer and more modern systems any time and we will soon be making a 4.5 Gen Jet (referring to block 3) in 3 years from scratch making it part of the elite club of top tier Jets one of the most modern and advance Jets in the world

and FC-1 Xiaolong is a CHINESE designation and as China is doing the most of the marketing of the project so most people call it FC-1 where as JF-17 Thunder is Pak's designation given to the aircraft .... you can say FC-1 is a downgraded export version where as JF-17 is the main Jet

 

[Bad Guy]

@Shariq786 No problem with JFT.
AMCA was started in 2008 and and now it's fastening. It will obviously come around 2030 and not further delayed because we have experience now what to do and what not to do.

Remember, we took more than a decade to make a simple and cheap helicopter like Dhruv. And after that we kept on making better helis on that model.

Agni 1 took a decade, Agni 5 was ready in 3 years
INSAS(a useless rifle took years) but later a nice standard MCIWS is currently under testing.

So, we once need experience to build something. We keep on developing like a chain reaction after that.
And now? Our private companies, who changed the face of our Navy and pushing our army ahead now are associating with aviation projects.
We have successfully tested just a bit smaller version of engine which creates 25kN thrust(required is 35-40 kN). Thanks for TATA.
You don't need to worry about us dude. We have a lot of options and our f has also now a long term plan.

 

[帅的一匹]

No need to produce it ya year 2024, it's been dilapidated.

 

[Akasa]

Problems not only for IAF

For PAF JF-17 is not enough to replaced all J-7, Mirrage 3/5 and Nanchang - Q-5 -- they will probably go for more used F-16.

As the JF-17 is produced, the 3rd generation aircraft will be phased out.

For PLAAF -- Need to replaced huge number of Gen -3 fighter planes.

As with the Indian Air Force.

J-10 -- Engine still unreliable, low MTO

The J-10A uses an uprated Al-31 engine while the J-10B/C is compatible with the WS-10B. Besides a few crashes (which happen amongst all major air forces), there hasn't been an incident with the engine that warranted a grounding of the fleet.

J-11, J-16 -- Problems is again engine, and glitches

Please provide evidence that there are "glitches" associated with these aircraft. Over 300+ J-11B and J-16 are in service with the WS-10A engine, the numbers itself being a testament to the engine's reliability.

J-15 -- Low thrust, needs F-117 engine from US, from carrier it could carry only A2A armament, and with the IP rights problem with russia cannot asked for high thrust engine, till paid all IP right penalties.

The J-15 can be fitted with the 135 kN WS-10A, which, by the way, exceeds the thrust of the Su-30MKI's turbofans. There is no evidence indicating that the Chinese need, or are pursuing, a 117S variant for their J-15s.
Here is a photograph of the J-15 with A2G weaponry:

J-20 -- Meant for the Area Deniel Area Excess in the South China Sea.

An air superiority fighter can do a lot more than provide denial-of-access; it can also undertake -- you guessed it -- air superiority missions.

Su-27/Su 30MKK -- Russian ones inferior to Indian MKI

Perhaps, but these still pose a threat to the lion's share of the IAF, which consists of MiG-21bis, MiG-27s, MiG-29s, and Jaguars.

Su-35 -- Need to buy which tell the real story in the indigenous Active Radar, turbofan engine, and J-20 5th fighter plane development

Sorry, but the low quantity purchased (24), in addition to the rumor that the Chinese are retrofitting the Su-35s with their own radars and weaponry, tells nothing of what you've mentioned.

Man, if you don't mind, JFT can't meet our standards.

It is being inducted in large numbers in your AF but Tejas is a mere additional fighter to us.
Our ambitions and goals are different, our problem and threats are different.

I hope you understand that the PAF need not be toe-to-toe with the IAF in order to be a threat to the latter.

 

[knight11]

don't know much about CHINA bro but on a serious note Pakistan does not face the same issue as the IAF does

Remember PAK is only inducting 150 JF 17's which includes BLOCK 1 2 and 3's out of which 50 block 1's are already in service 29 block 2's are done too which means 79 out 150 meaning only 71 remaining 16 to 17 block 2's will be inducted by the end of this year which means around of figure of 100 jets till the end of this year and Kamra has mentioned that till 2019 it will be able to pull out 25 jets a year but i m still not counting that and a dual seat variant is also comming out in the mid of this year and Block 3 is in progress and will be done by mid of 2017 so 50 block 3's would take max time till 2019 to be fully inducted in our AF....and than block ones will be upgraded to block 2 so that will take 2 years at max taking upto 2021 and PAF having 100 block 2's and 50 block 3's all in battle ready mode by the end of 2021 max and this timeline is refering to the fact that if Kamra only produces 17 planes a year if it starts 25 jets a year than 2020 is max .....

and PAK won't be retiring all of the mirages and F-7's...

The Mirage III/V with ROSE upgrades can still stay in service by 2025 and F-7PG are the latest of F-7 variants so they might stay with us till 2025 too since the Plan is of only 150 JF's so there might be a possibility of inducting 50 more F-16 by the year of 2020 and rest will depend on how JF 17 block 2 or 3 performes if its really good and cost effective it might get more orders from PAF and will replace the remaining Mirages and F-7's if that happens then by the end of 2025 you will see a whole new PAF.... so we are on track and going really smooth where as you guys really need some HELP really get some sane minds in DRDO too work and work fast......

Brother on the serious note PAF is loosing 8 aircraft due to irritation and phrasing out per year.
The best aircraft of PAF are new18 F-16 block 52. There is lot of concern in Pakistan regarding the power disparity with the Indian Airforce, and now also evolving Indian Naval Aviation force. Even with the MLU F-16 and the newest block of F-16, the problem for the PAF is the lack of funds, and you can read the whole thread in PDF about the pakistan's answer to the Indian Rafale thread. So what makes PAF go for the FC-1 designated JF-17, was that the capability what PAF wanted was not available for the PAF e.g BVRAAM was not available for F-16, same it is not available to Egypt, so it does not matter how many F-16 does Egypt field against Israel, it will be in the disadvantage. It was JF-17 from which long range BVR came to Pakistan, which ultimately lead to the release of the Aim-120 C-5 -- 500 nos from the US to get approved.

Most of the Pakistani members thinks that JF-17 is very cheaper alternative to replaced the ageing old PAFs fighter aircraft, but they fail to understand that JF-17 might be cheaper in fly away cost, but costly in operating them, due to low MTO of the Russian Engine, and PAF already have low budget. They fail to understand that the F-16 they operate have disadvantage against the IAF due to lack of AESA, and passive sensors such as IRST. There are some members like @MastanKhan who thinks that PAF decission makers are idiots and baffoon, but he fails to understand they are doing the best with the budget, threat, and requirement in consideration. These types of decessions are not made on the gut feelings but lot of observations, planning and analysis. The best decission was the induction of AEW in PAF to nullify the IAF superiority.

Now coming to the point MIrrage 3/5 are very old and needs to get replaced, but it would take a while to replace them because what I hear in the PDF, that there is a plan to get them replaced with JF-17, for the naval strike role, which would be a bad decisions, due to the lack of the endurance, load carrying capacity. Now Pakistan would like to replaced mirrage with Su-35, J-16 but problem is Su-35 is clear for export to pakistan, and J-16, J-11 have IP violation problem so again not available. This shows not only the problem of the funds but also the problem of the Choice.
For PAF large nos of Q-5, J-7 again means less capable aircraft, with low cost, but high operating cost, same problem what IAF hard find out using the Soviet/Russian aircraft that they were low costly to buy, but on the long run costly then the western part. Again J-7 have less endurance, low radar range around 35 KM, and could not stand strong in front of 4th Gen fighter planes such as Mirrage 2000 UPG, MIg 29UPG, LCA MK-1.

Feel free to disagree with me. IF you have some points pls do share.

Thanks

 

[knight11]

As the JF-17 is produced, the 3rd generation aircraft will be phased out.

Only 150 nos are planned, together with the F-16 that will make not more than 250. Do the calculation.

As with the Indian Air Force

Yeah, but we will go with the LCA, Rafale, and will upgrade Jaguar upto 2030.

The J-10A uses an uprated Al-31 engine while the J-10B/C is compatible with the WS-10B. Besides a few crashes (which happen amongst all major air forces), there hasn't been an incident with the engine that warranted a grounding of the fleet.

Sir, there is a large secrecy among the Chinese, so may I know, the reason of your assumption and your confidence. I like J-10 concept, and it will be the Chinese airforce backbone. It is medium category wt., FBW, FADEEC, and have lot of space of the future upgrade, but fails to understand not inducted by PAF, because that will suit PAF best if everything you claim is true. But in reality, the only problem is the Engine because agreed China gives priority to the indegenous, and its the matter of their prestige, but still I believe, China is able to make engine, but not reliable and economical than AI-31.

The J-15 can be fitted with the 135 kN WS-10A, which, by the way, exceeds the thrust of the Su-30MKI's turbofans. There is no evidence indicating that the Chinese need, or are pursuing, a 117S variant for their J-15s.
Here is a photograph of the J-15 with A2G weaponry:

Here is the indication, because Russian are struggling with their Su-33 LOLZ, and J-15 which China created with the blue print purchased from Ukraine, which people here termed as Reverse Engineering, and that why decided to go for MIG-29K.

Can you post the picture of J-15 with the heavy load ski jump from the carrier.

An air superiority fighter can do a lot more than provide denial-of-access; it can also undertake -- you guessed it -- air superiority missions.

I was explaining the strategy of the China in the South China Sea, to void the NATO and the western forces F-35 or F-18 growler to target the S-300, S-400 Air defence system. My guess is no other country in the whole world needs J-20, but J-20 would serve its purpose in PLAAF strategy.

Perhaps, but these still pose a threat to the lion's share of the IAF, which consists of MiG-21bis, MiG-27s, MiG-29s, and Jaguars

They would probably face Rafale and MKI bu most probably would face the mix, with Super MKI/MKI backing them but also would be in disadvantage due to takeoff from the high altitude bases of Tibets, and lack of tankers. But big question is what is the priority of the PLAAF, certainly its eastern side, not the western.

Sorry, but the low quantity purchased (24), in addition to the rumor that the Chinese are retrofitting the Su-35s with their own radars and weaponry, tells nothing of what you've mentioned.

Same question which I ask Pakistanis when they claim that JF-17 aka FC-1 is equal to F-16, why are you buying them, instead of building them in house. Answer is China needs 5th Gen tech, such as Radars, smart weapons and needs lot of Russian inputs and help, whether its the combat hellicopter, or whether need the help from the Zhuk for the Aesa for the fighter plane.

 

[Akasa]

Only 150 nos are planned, together with the F-16 that will make not more than 250. Do the calculation.

Yes, but even by IAF standards, that is a sizable fleet to contend with.

Yeah, but we will go with the LCA, Rafale, and will upgrade Jaguar upto 2030.

But we are referring to the present, are we not? By 2030 India's neighbors would've progressed the same in terms of modernization.

Sir, there is a large secrecy among the Chinese, so may I know, the reason of your assumption and your confidence. I like J-10 concept, and it will be the Chinese airforce backbone. It is medium category wt., FBW, FADEEC, and have lot of space of the future upgrade, but fails to understand not inducted by PAF, because that will suit PAF best if everything you claim is true. But in reality, the only problem is the Engine because agreed China gives priority to the indegenous, and its the matter of their prestige, but still I believe, China is able to make engine, but not reliable and economical than AI-31.

Neither the Pakistanis nor the Chinese do things for "prestige". A system either meets military requirements or it doesn't; the brass has neither the time nor the money to entertain such notions. The WS-10 was inducted because it provides a higher thrust (and supposedly longer lifespan) than the Al-31 variants used on the earlier J-10s.

Here is the indication, because Russian are struggling with their Su-33 LOLZ, and J-15 which China created with the blue print purchased from Ukraine, which people here termed as Reverse Engineering, and that why decided to go for MIG-29K.

The Su-33 has stopped development a long time ago, and whether or not the Russians had issues with its design (they didn't) has no bearing on the development of the J-15, which, besides the airframe, is an uniquely independent aircraft. The fact that the Russians chose to develop the MiG-29K instead doesn't say anything about the J-15's capabilities besides that the two aircraft offer different advantages that happen to be viewed differently by the two countries.

Can you post the picture of J-15 with the heavy load ski jump from the carrier.

And that is relevant to our discussion of the J-15's capabilities because...?

I was explaining the strategy of the China in the South China Sea, to void the NATO and the western forces F-35 or F-18 growler to target the S-300, S-400 Air defence system. My guess is no other country in the whole world needs J-20, but J-20 would serve its purpose in PLAAF strategy.

The J-20 is like any other fifth generation aircraft; it might be designed to excel in certain situations, but that does not preclude it from undertaking other roles.

They would probably face Rafale and MKI bu most probably would face the mix, with Super MKI/MKI backing them but also would be in disadvantage due to takeoff from the high altitude bases of Tibets, and lack of tankers. But big question is what is the priority of the PLAAF, certainly its eastern side, not the western.

I do not know why you are drawing up a situation in which the PLAAF's low-end fighters would have to solely contend with the entire IAF fleet, a situation that is far too quixotic to begin with. As for high-altitude takeoffs, the aircraft stationed in Tibet, which are almost exclusively Su-27s, will be configured for A2A missions, which will be relatively lightweight vis-a-vis loadouts for multirole aircraft.

Same question which I ask Pakistanis when they claim that JF-17 aka FC-1 is equal to F-16, why are you buying them, instead of building them in house. Answer is China needs 5th Gen tech, such as Radars, smart weapons and needs lot of Russian inputs and help, whether its the combat hellicopter, or whether need the help from the Zhuk for the Aesa for the fighter plane.

If the Chinese were seeking to obtain Russian radars/weapons/etc., they would not have (1) purchased merely 24 Su-35s or (2) planned to retrofit them with Chinese avionics and weaponry. Another clue working against your theory is the continued testing of similar-performing fighter aircraft like the J-11D.

There are multiple Chinese institutions developing and deploying AESA-type radars, and have been doing so far longer than the Russians.

 

[Bad Guy]

No need to produce it ya year 2024, it's been dilapidated.

Why man?
Mk1 was our first attempt. So, it got some problems.
Same things have happened with our helis and missiles too.
Dhruv and Agni 1 were duds and now, LCH and A3P are pretty nice.
We take time to develop when we try something new. But we develop nice things further on the platform.