LCA Tejas and Cold Start Doctrine – Potential Joint Operations Test case

[MilSpec]

@GORKHALI

IAF never did and would never have air superiority over our air space.

India 'cannot' attain 'the element of surprise', given the intelligence structure we have in India.

Rest assured, once it starts, the first strike will not be from India...we'll strike 'first'.

I hope your military leadership believes the same...... especially coming from the culture of military miscalculations

 

[rockstarIN]

Oh @Aeronaut, you're just so cute

Somehow a military with a $7B budget is going to be able to defend against a $47B budgeted military. Djinn magic

A small military with limited resources need such high morale talk to get the support from the population.

 

[MilSpec]

Oh @Aeronaut, you're just so cute

Somehow a military with a $7B budget is going to be able to defend against a $47B budgeted military. Djinn magic

It is needed, when you dont have the bite, you do need to have the loudest bark...

 

[SarthakGanguly]

@trident2010

Pakistan will respond by destroying 30 odd Indian FABs through cruise missile strikes. Plus most of northern India's electrical power generation facilities. I'm sure that will help India get back to its senses.



We know what we can do, if we are forced to do so. India's top brass knows it too...better than many internet ifs and buters.

You believe whatever you want, for the rest of it.

Till then India will lick its fingers and cry. Right?

 

[SarthakGanguly]

So you are saying that pakistan supported parliament attacks and 26/11_ but somehow have this magical bullet to take India down but rather choose not to?

This 1000 cuts success rate is bit exaggerated bro. If these 1000 cuts worked so well, then why is that you are facing 100,000 cuts i.e. weekly bombings practically, loss of economy, loss of blood and treasure, have free fall of terrorists breeding in your grounds and shame on the world stage ...I would not call it a very effective 1000 cuts against India, when it cuts you 10 x times more, yeah?

Then- you have gone to war with India 4 times; continued even w/ the recent attempted military attacks with Kargil etc- but seem to think that in spite of Pak failing each time, it is holding back turning India into a fireball?

This makes no sense...man. you call these jihadis non state actors and then your non state actors become someone you want to create this havoc for?

Lol - you just tried talking sense into him, did you? Don't waste your time.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

Till then India will lick its fingers and cry. Right?

Actually he's right. They don't have any power generation facilities/ dams/ water plants etc.- what exactly are we supposed to hit? Lahore staduim?

 

[SarthakGanguly]

@GORKHALI

IAF never did and would never have air superiority over our air space.

India 'cannot' attain 'the element of surprise', given the intelligence structure we have in India.

Rest assured, once it starts, the first strike will not be from India...we'll strike 'first'.

Last time I remember they had in 71. It is called absolute air superiority. In fact the absence of PAF was pathetic. A super intelligence structure in India? Consider having on in Pakistan to prevent the suicide blasts please.

 

[Kompromat]

Last time I remember they had in 71. It is called absolute air superiority. In fact the absence of PAF was pathetic. A super intelligence structure in India? Consider having on in Pakistan to prevent the suicide blasts please.

Over East Pakistan where we had 18 F-86 some of which ran out of Jet fuel supplies...big deal!

 

[GORKHALI]

@GORKHALI

IAF never did and would never have air superiority over our air space.

India 'cannot' attain 'the element of surprise', given the intelligence structure we have in India.

Rest assured, once it starts, the first strike will not be from India...we'll strike 'first'.

You seems to be forgot,What is the real meaning of air superiority. Still for your ease air superiority is all about total control where our ground forces smashing and concentrating unlike some when it was most needed they were hanger queen.
Hint : Read Kaiser Tufail blog what happened in kargil
> Strike 1st but 2nd strike from India will make sure there will be no land mass called Islamic Republic of Pakistan.Not my words but Our National security advisor.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Over East Pakistan where we had 18 F-86 some of which ran out of Jet fuel supplies...big deal!

That and West Pakistan. The condition was so pathetic and comical that when the Indian patrol boats came and blasted Karachi Works(the Oil stores), there was not a aircraft - not even a single boat to counter it. Oh yes - you can blame the lack of oil on this strike though

 

[SrNair]

One extremely important role for Indian Air Force (IAF) will be the Close Air Support (CAS) to Indian Army. This is especially true for the decade old doctrine popularly called the cold start doctrine (CSD) extensively covered in press, although never publicly accepted by Indian Army. Ostensibly this was articulated and developed after the attack on Indian parliament when India could not mobilize its forces at the desired speed to make the counter attack, credible.

The Cold Start Doctrine

http://*****************/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Indian-Army-Tank-during-an-Exercise.jpg

The CSD called for 8 Independent Battle Groups (IBGs) to move rapidly into Pakistan. Each IBG was to be composed of approximately an equivalent armored division in terms of number of armored vehicles (Tanks, Infantry combat vehicles, Self-propelled artillery, etc) constituting it. The Blitzkrieg envisaged that the 8 IBGs will rapidly move into Pakistan in response to any major terrorist or subversive attack carried out by Pakistan or launched from Pakistan – such as 26/11 or attack on Indian parliament – in 72 hours. With 30 km front and minimum 100 km inter IBG difference such massive and rapid incursions will thin spread Pakistani armored and air defense resources, thereby paving the way for Indian forces to go deep into Pakistan. The CSD looked menacing – definitely a conventional deterrence to next Pakistani adventure. The feasibility, alas, was not very high. Pakistan used the Indian CSD to develop a counter in the form of the tactical nuclear option engineered into 60 KM range NASR missiles with low KT nukes – which potentially can be launched from the multi-barrel rocket launchers. Many have rejected the Pak tactical nukes as not capable, read insignificant, yet one cannot discount the threat of NASR. Following the same train of thought India need to consider how to increase the feasibility and effectiveness of CSD – or something similar to CSD – if we need to communicate a credible conventional deterrence to Pak.

The Total Air Superiority Problem

One key problem with CSD is the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Threat. Even if Indian army is able to mobilize 8 IBGs and start the inward movement across the Indo-Pak border, it will have to contend with the Pakistan Air force – that can create a large impediment for the blitzkrieg. Let us assume that each IBG (assuming it to be an armored division equivalent) moves in what is called 2up formation – where two armored brigade equivalents are ahead in parallel followed by the third armored brigade equivalent. IAF will have to ensure air superiority on all 8 attack routes. This is tough task – despite IAF having 272 Su-30 MKI Air superiority fighters – 40 of those India will keep for the nuke deterrence against Pak and China. Of the remaining 230, IAF needs to keep about 100 for the conventional war against China if China comes to join hands with Pakistan. IAF will be left with 100 odd SU30 against Pakistan to be utilized as Air Superiority missions including CAP and strike escorts to Jaguars/Mig27s for long range strike missions. For point defence and area defence Mig 21s and Mig 29s should be utilized along with Mirage 2000.

http://*****************/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/LCA-Tejas-parked.jpg

Despite the above capability, IAF would still not be able to achieve total air superiority against PAF. India Pak War scenario – we are more than two decades behind those high tech air war. We still have three main missions – IAF calls them – Long Range Strike Mission, Air Defence (AD) (including Combat Air Patrol and point AD), Close Air Support, Air Defence Escorts to LRSM. We still have not created 1991 air package concept that US used in Iraq. All said and done – IAF will not be able to provide total air-superiority in Indo-Pak scenarios as our doctrine continues to be linear. We have to strive to achieve local air superiority for the time and space we chose. One of the key missions for IAF will continue to be CAS to Indian Army – whether IAF like it or not. In fact, if it does not provide a new doctrinal shift for delivering CAS to Indian Army – all the so called CSD type plans will remain low on credibility. Suppression of Enemy Air Defences (SEAD) plus CAS with AD Escorts package with SU30MKI CAP controlled by AWACS need to be delivered in support of IBGs. IA will not wait for 40 days of pure air operations before starting the ground operations, what US and allies did in 1991 Desert Storm. Indian Army and IAF need to evolve a new doctrine together – especially against Pak.

An Integrated Cold Start Doctrine is needed

For the 8 IBG achieving their mission of deep penetration in Pakistan in 72 Hours will require local air superiority and heavy close air support. As is known, the blitzkrieg requires integrated high momentum penetration streams, which IA hopes will be provided by the IBGs. It is the high momentum close air support in terms of number of sorties that IAF can deliver to IBGs IAF will have issues with its strike aircraft like Jaguars/Mig27s – which they will keep more for anti-airbase and deep strikes rather than close air support. Similarly, Su30MKI, Mirage 2000 or even Rafale with their multirole high end capabilities will be utilized for CAP, AD Escorts, or local Air Superiority missions. Even then number of sorties these high end aircraft can deliver cannot be more than 1 to 1.5 per day per aircraft.

LCA-Tejas can provide the Close Air Support for Integrated CSD

The integrated Cold Start will require about 100+ pure close air support sorties per day sustained for 3-5 days for the 8 IBGs. We need a light aircraft with rapid sortie generation capability which delivers very high load per sortie. With 8 hard points and mirage 2000 type capability the LCA Tejas fits the bill. With 40 Tejas IAF can provide 2.5 to 3 sorties per day per aircraft. 100+ sorties of LCA sustained for 5 days will be crucial component of the integrated CSD. This enables one dimension of making CSD feasible and hence credible. Today we simply cannot do CSD type pincer attack. Our MIGs and Jaguars simply cannot do this support.

LCA can deliver 3 sorties per day for 3-5 days per day provided pilots are available to rotate the aircraft. Mirage 2000 and SU30 can deliver around 1 or max 1.5 sortie a day remaining Jaguars/Migs if we get 1 sortie per day – it will be great. However for CAS for 8 IBGs we need 100+ LCA sorties per day which is potentially possible. But with current aircraft – we cannot give air support. In the absence of Self Propelled Artillery, we will not have successful “CSD type” doctrine. The complete premise, on which IA has been creating its armored and mechanized force for last decade or so, will be futile. LCA is the real sortie maximization solution in air war.

Of course can IA and IAF work together becomes the key question. If they cannot, may be IA would like to operate LCA in squadron strength on its own. A possible scenario of reorganization of armed forces with army has its own close air support aircraft, say a 4 x LCA troop running CAS for each of the 8 IBGs. Since we do not have an integrated armed force structure such as US Marines, we should create an integrated doctrine through close collaboration between Air Force and Indian Army. IAF should realize that it cannot win an indo-pak war on its own. It has to build in its doctrine a close air support component to Indian Army. LCA Tejas actually may be bringing in a platform that can be utilized in sufficient numbers to carry out sufficient CAS missions. In this way, an integrated credible cold start type doctrine will be made feasible. However, the Integrated CSD with LCA in CAS will be a test case of joint operations ability of Indian Army and Indian Air Force.

LCA Tejas and Cold Start Doctrine – Potential Joint Operations Test case

For now CSD is not feasible as our squadrons contracted to 34 .Pakistanis will not hesitate to use their nuclear weapons so it may be a disaster.In future it may good option.

 

[trident2010]

Don't you wish India has American's fire power.

Yes thats what everyone wish.

 

[Lostsoldier]

Firstly china wont enter war....its totally sure

china and india are two buisness giants ,if things go wrong between us and trade stops chinese economy and indian economy will be shrinked.A lot of raw material goes from india to china for fine products.

And guys did u notice

what is nasr--A 60-70 km rocket
how paf will not allow iaf to take air supeority?
with single engine shit like old f16 and joint failure 17
third how they claim to destroy india posts gunships and evry stuff?
dont we have attack helis dnt we have mki?

dude keep dreaming its good but its better to act upon it and it is best to acccept truth

Stop Trolling

do u think if war goes at this level navies will not take part?

Pakistan navy---o does pakistan has navy??
With a dozen strenght?how many carriers destroyers?stealth frigates?submarines?
will they be able to stop indian navy?

we will block all ur trade .. no ration as we have base in tazakistan ...no fuel every supply will be stopped. ur whole karachi would be destroyed.... so with what u guys will fire?? stones?

 

[Pulsar]

For Pakistan, its straight forward, though not easy.

* Deny IAF the air superiority.

While IAF can't commit its full fleet to CSD, PAF will use every nail and hammer, inside its own air space. PAF might be able to outnumber IAF during attacks. Such attacks wont meet their goals.

HQ-9s, SPADA-2000s with other AD assets, will keep the IAF operating under its objectives envelope.

* Once IAF is unable to claim air superiority, we'll smash the IA's IBGs with, ATGMs, MBRLs, SPH, Air strikes, Tanks and gunships.

* Trick is to 'delay' IA's advance (main thrust).

Once its delayed, we'll smash the units that have infiltrated in the urban, rural areas, catch them in a pincer and 'hold them'.

We don't have to destroy everything, we just have to 'tangle' them, so they miss their deadlines. Indian leadership would either have to withdraw or risk an all out war.

With all this 'smashing' and 'bashing', I wonder where you learnt your strategy and tactics from? It's hilarious!!

 

[SrNair]

@JayAtl

India is operating at its optimum capacity in Baluchistan.

No one knows the strategy of 'death by a 1000 cuts' better than us. We invented it, practiced it, applied it, had success and can apply that on India, if and when we decided to.

Pakistan maintains the highest level of Human Intelligence on India, from your stock markets, to real estate, from petty crime gangs to drug mafia, from your domestic terrorist outfits from, the Maoists, to IM, LET, Khalistan movement, to your organized smuggling rings....we are present...

Though we won't hit India first with our optimum capacity, one has to be an absolute idiot to underestimate our capability to turn India into a fireball.

People in the Indian decision making circles know the limits to their adventurism against us....thats because they fear our capability (tested and demonstrated) to 'repay havoc with havoc'. So they are careful what they wish for.

Peace.

Sir ,I think you are mistaken .Many reasons .You too much overestimated Pakistan human intelligence capability.If it is US I will concede .Human intelligence in stock markets .
May some politicians is in the hand of ISI.But they are no in the loop of decision making.
Only Pakistan successful strategy is counterfeit Indian Currency notes issuing and smuggling ,it also create some problems in our economy .But it is too little.
The capability you mentioned about stock markets can do only one Intelligence agency and that is US.
Rest Khalistan is almost dead in India and only just alive in foreign countries.LeT and IM,, ok complete Pak support,
Real estate I told with some counterfeit money but problems is very minimal in large economy like India.Maoistis is declining
All others cant make big influence even in the large case.
But India already do it .But successfully ripped apart East Pakistan.And Balochistan ,sorry sir.We use our less capacity and that is enough and can see troubles to PA.