King Abdullah of Jordan warns of “massive conflict” if Israel proceeds with annexation

[Naofumi]

Your Indian origin shows your ignorance/cluelessness about the Arab world/Middle East, I see.

Lol, ad hominem. I expected it though.

Arabs have an almost 3000 year old recorded history in Syria (853 BC). Arabs were recorded in what is modern-day Northern Syria during a battle between the Assyrian Empire and various allied Semitic city states and entities in what is modern-day Sham.

Assyrian and Babylonian Royal Inscriptions and North Arabian inscriptions from 9th to 6th century BCE, mention the king of Qedar as king of the Arabs and King of the Ishmaelites.[90][91][92][93] Of the names of the sons of Ishmael the names "Nabat, Kedar, Abdeel, Dumah, Massa, and Teman" were mentioned in the Assyrian Royal Inscriptions as tribes of the Ishmaelites. Jesur was mentioned in Greek inscriptions in the 1st century BCE.[94]​

Arab created several kingdoms in what is today Syria millennia before the Rashidun. Ever heard about the Ghassanids who ruled Syria for 4 centuries prior to the Rashidun? About the Nabateans that ruled Southern Syria over 2000 years ago? About Philip the Arab, an Arab emperor from Southern Syria that ruled the Roman empire 400 years before the Rashidun?

I did not said that every Syrian is an Arabified Arab, that would be a stupid assertation, given the centuries old migration of Arab tribes into the region. But they're markedly different from, say Yemenis - they're primarily Levantine.

Genetic tests on Syrians were included in many genetic studies.[51][52][53] The genetic marker which identifies descendants of the ancient Levantines is found in Syrians in high proportion.[54] Modern Syrians exhibit "high affinity to the Levant" based on studies comparing modern and ancient DNA samples.[55] Syrians cluster closely with ancient Levantine populations of the Neolithic and Bronze ages.[56] A Levantine ancestral genetic component was identified; it is estimated that the Levantine and the Arabian Peninsula/East African ancestral components diverged 23,700-15,500 years ago, while the divergence between the Levantine and European components happened 15,900-9,100 years ago.[57] The Levantine ancestral component is the most recurrent in Levantines (42–68%); the Arabian Peninsula/East African ancestral components represent around 25% of Syrian genetic make-up.[58][59]

The paternal Y-DNA haplogroups J1, which reaches its highest frequencies in Yemen 72.6% and Qatar 58.3%, accounted for 33.6% of Syrians.[60] The J2 group accounted for 20.8% of Syrians; other Y-DNA haplogroups includes the E1B1B 12.0%, I 5.0%, R1a 10.0% and R1b 15.0%.[53][61] The Syrians are closest to other Levantine populations: the Palestinians, Lebanese and Jordanians;[62] this closeness can be explained with the common Canaanite ancestry and geographical unity which was broken only in the twentieth century with the advent of British and French mandates.[63] Regarding the genetic relation between the Syrians and the Lebanese based on Y-DNA, Muslims from Lebanon show closer relation to Syrians than their Christian compatriots.[64] The people of Western Syria show close relation with the people of Northern Lebanon.[65]

Mitochondrial DNA shows the Syrians to have affinity with Europe; main haplogroups are H and R.[66] Based on Mitochondrial DNA, the Syrians, Palestinian, Lebanese and Jordanians form a close cluster.[67] Compared to the Lebanese, Bedouins and Palestinians, the Syrians have noticeably more Northern European component, estimated at 7%.[68] Regarding the HLA alleles, Syrians, and other Levantine populations, exhibit "key differences" from other Arab populations;[69] based on HLA-DRB1 alleles, Syrians were close to eastern Mediterranean populations, such as the Cretans and Lebanese Armenians.[70] Studying the genetic relation between Jews and Syrians showed that the two populations share close affinity.[71] Apparently, the cultural influence of Arab expansion in the Eastern Mediterranean in the seventh century was more prominent than the genetic influx.[72] However, the expansion of Islam did leave an impact on Levantine genes; religion drove Levantine Muslims to mix with other Muslim populations, who were close culturally despite the geographic distance, and this produced genetic similarities between Levantine Muslims and Moroccan and Yemeni populations. Christians and Druze became a genetic isolate in the predominantly Islamic world.[73]

You are pathetically trying to equate millennia old identities with some recent construct that began in 1947 and trying to claim that identical people (Arab Jews) whose only difference is their passport and religion (a closely fellow Semitic and Abrahamic religion native to the Arab world) suddenly makes Jewish Yemenis, identical genetically to their Arab brethren, magically turn into different people from the Yemeni Muslims. That is not how the world works.

I am not. I am stating a fact about the Mizrahi's worldview, you better go convince them to declare Israel as an Arab republic.

If they had lived in Turkey and intermarried for centuries upon centuries, that might have been the case but I want to inform you that there already exists an indigenous Arab community in Turkey that predates the Turkic migrations by millennia. Not to mention that modern day Turks have plenty of Arab/Semitic admixture as proven by DNA, in particular those in the South and East but not only.

I am informed but you see Turks will insist about their identity. Let me restate this, My primary argument is not who's who but who they think of themselves. Re-read this until it gets in your head.

Not sure whether you are trolling (appears to be the case) but did I not write to you that the age of conquest is over and that political unification and unification as a whole can occur without conquest? Ever heard about how the UAE unified? Or Yemen in 1990? Or how Egypt and Syria joined hands to create a country? Or Jordan and Iraq? Or how Libya, Egypt and Syria joined hands in the 1970's officially?

If you've noticed, I replied to this statement originally.

It equals to KSA conquering Kuwait, Bahrain, UAE, Oman and Qatar.

Maybe you used the wrong word?

Native Pakistanis by a whole have little to do with Indians racially expect for Punjabis and Sindhis who only have a racial affinity with Indian Punjab and immediate neighboring regions. I think that practically every Pakistani user here will attest to that.

Punajbi/Sindhis constitute the majority of the population of Pakistan.

And these languages descended from Sanskrit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_peoples

And my point was Pakistanis won't call themselves an "Indic Republic", similarly Mizrahis won't declare Israel an Arab republic.

 

[ArabianEmpires&Caliphates]

Lol, ad hominem. I expected it though.

I did not said that every Syrian is an Arabified Arab, that would be a stupid assertation, given the centuries old migration of Arab tribes into the regions. But they're markedly different from, say Yemenis - they're primarily Levantine.


I am not. I am stating a fact about the Mizrahi's worldview, you better go convince them to declare Israel as an Arab republic.

I am informed but you see Turks will insist about their identity. Let me restate this, My primary argument is not who's who but who they think of themselves. Re-read this until it gets in your head.

If you've noticed, I replied to this statement originally.

Maybe you used the wrong word?

Punajbi/Sindhis constitute the majority of the population of Pakistan.

You can't be surprised when you quite clearly have little knowledge about the Arab world.

Syrians are not any more "Arabized" (you don't even know the right word, lol) than Saudi Arabians are Arabized or Yemenis are Arabized.

Genetically and racially there is no difference between the Arabs of the Near East we all share the same paternal and maternal haplogoups and we all cluster together like every DNA tests shows. Wikipedia is not a source either and there will always be differences in DNA, that is the case between cities within the same region (everywhere), even siblings, let alone modern-day populations.

Are you trolling again? There is no oxymoron between being an Israeli Jew of Arab origins (2/3 of all Israeli Jews are that) and being an Israeli citizen and identifying as a Jew. A Jew is a religious identification marker mostly, not a racial one. 99.99% of all Israeli Jews of Arab origin do not deny their origins or ties to the Arab civilization whether racially, culturally or linguistically. However they are Israelis today. My point is that there is no racial, genetic difference between them and the Muslim and Christian counterparts.

You know I am not a fan about people identifying with whatever they want to and creating their own identities overnight. Some Hijazis identify as Nabateans and might try to put pre-Abrahamic ancient Semitic religions into life again, how do they suddenly differ from the average Muslim Hijazi Arab?

Identity (genuine identity) is not created overnight, it takes centuries if not millennia. I am talking about ethnic/cultural identities in our part of the world. We are not talking about nationality here. You seem to miss this point.

You started talking about Saddam's conquest of Kuwait. I wrote to you why that was wrong/a foolish move and told you that it equals KSA conquering all its smaller neighbors. The reaction from the outside world would be the same. Unification can and should occur through political and peaceful means. I gave you a long list of modern-day Arab entities that did just that. The most successful in the recent era is the UAE which is a federal state composed of 7 emirates with their own distinct rulers and laws, flags, symbols etc.

So what if they constitute the majority when Punjabis in India only make up 3% of the Indian population or even less? Don't recall the exact number and don't bother Googling. Similarly Sindhis are even much less in India.

Pakistanis and Indians are not comparable in terms of closeness to the freaking closenesses that say Yemeni Arab Muslims, Yemeni Arab Jews and say Iraqi Arab Muslims and Iraqi Arab Jews share as every DNA test will confirm. Not even talking about appearance, culture, language etc. here. How can I put it? What is your ethnicity and from which region of India do you originate from? You said that you were a Muslim. Now try to convince me of you being different of say your Hindu neighbor in your ancestral region of India, if that Hindu neighbor of yours is from the same ethnicity as you.

 

[Beast]

Looks like WWIII will start from Israel and Jordan first.

 

[Trango Towers]

Lol the Freemason hashimate puppet who is more British than Arab


That son of the British speaks English better than Arabic and call him self a descendant from the prophet Muhammad

I am a descendant of Adam alay Salam.
These people are crazy
Besides what war...will jordon tickle Israel's toes ?

 

[CrazyZ]

Lets see if this move by Israel would rile up passions in the region for a more capable regional bloc to coalesce. Many regional blocs will be forming all over the world, why not the NA/ME/Islamic region. I am personally doubtful that NA/ME/Islamic regional would emerge. I don't see that kind of Arab or Islamic leadership in the region (Nasser had a shot)....but the Israelis may spark something.

 

[ArabianEmpires&Caliphates]

Lets see if this move by Israel would rile up passions in the region for a more capable regional bloc to coalesce. Many regional blocs will be forming all over the world, why not the NA/ME/Islamic region. I am personally doubtful that NA/ME/Islamic regional would emerge. I don't see that kind of Arab or Islamic leadership in the region (Nasser had a shot)....but the Israelis may spark something.

Which genuine effective Muslim leadership exists anywhere in the world currently? Kashmir? Rohingya? Uyghur's? Palestinians? Chechens? List is endless. Muslim leaders are fighting each other internally and externally. From Indonesia to Morocco.

The whole prospect of Israel annexing the West Bank and Gaza is an oxymoron. Israel would cease to have a Jewish majority if such a thing occurred and who is going to provide for those millions of Palestinians who want nothing to do with Israel? This apartheid system can only work so long. The best solution for both parties is a two-state solution, there is no other way around this. Either that or some joint Israeli-Palestinian federation where both Israelis and Palestinians have equal rights and there is free movement of people and Israelis and Palestinians can settle everywhere where they want in that new state. I consider the last option very unrealistic as of today.

 

[Naofumi]

Syrians are not any more "Arabized" (you don't even know the right word, lol) than Saudi Arabians are Arabized or Yemenis are Arabized.

Genetically and racially there is no difference between the Arabs of the Near East we all share the same paternal and maternal haplogoups and we all cluster together like every DNA tests shows. Wikipedia is not a source either and there will always be differences in DNA, that is the case between cities within the same region (everywhere), even siblings, let alone modern-day populations.

Where all the Aramaic speakers, Phoenician speakers etc gone? Are languages not spread by conquest(s)? Do identities never change? And are Egyptians Arab too? Same as Hijazis?

You know I am not a fan about people identifying with whatever they want to and creating their own identities overnight. Some Hijazis identify as Nabateans and might try to put pre-Abrahamic ancient Semitic religions into life again, how do they suddenly differ from the average Muslim Hijazi Arab?

Identity (genuine identity) is not created overnight, it takes centuries if not millennia. I am talking about ethnic/cultural identities in our part of the world. We are not talking about nationality here. You seem to miss this point.

Yup, we're both missing each others points, there are historical points where identities diverge/converge - establishment of Israel was one such point for Mizrahis, the more time will pass they more they'll be "de-Arab-ized" (thanks for the right word though), I see your point that it takes more than 70 years to build a new identity over the previous one but with the constant animosity between them and Muslim Arabs they have stopped identifying as such, add that to the Ashkenazi's cultural dominance in initial years - they have been stripped of their previous identities (with the probable sole exception of Yemenis). Maybe, we can put an end to this debate by citing some surveys on Mizrahi's thoughts? I already gave you their voting patterns.

 

[raptor22]

King Abdullah is Messiah and would establish Islamic caliphate again and conquer isreal ...

 

[CrazyZ]

Which genuine effective Muslim leadership exists anywhere in the world currently? Kashmir? Rohingya? Uyghur's? Palestinians? Chechens? List is endless. Muslim leaders are fighting each other internally and externally. From Indonesia to Morocco.

The whole prospect of Israel annexing the West Bank and Gaza is an oxymoron. Israel would cease to have a Jewish majority if such a thing occurred and who is going to provide for those millions of Palestinians who want nothing to do with Israel? This apartheid system can only work so long. The best solution for both parties is a two-state solution, there is no other way around this. Either that or some joint Israeli-Palestinian federation where both Israelis and Palestinians have equal rights and there is free movement of people and Israelis and Palestinians can settle everywhere where they want in that new state. I consider the last option very unrealistic as of today.

Israeli settlements have already made any independent Palestinian state not really viable. Any potential Palestinian state would be heavily dependent on Israel.... hence under its control. The two state solution is dead. The geographic chess board is set up against any Palestinian state.

Pakistanis can sympathize, the geographic chess board was setup against Pakistan when partition of British India occurred. The British and Hindu elites did not want a Muslim Pakistan to control the entire Indus Valley and insured that parts of Kashmir and Eastern Punjab would go to India. With all that secure water and hydro electric potential, Pakistan would be in great position. Instead the British and Hindus elites gave us a romp part of Bengal that did not include the sparsely inhabited regions to the North east with the head source of the Brahmaputra river, but a territory surrounded by India on three sides and a nightmare to defend. The British and Hindu elites wanted any Muslim Pakistani state to be highly vulnerable to and dependent on India.

Same thing is going on with the Palestinians. I'm not sure what the solution is for them. Pakistan had to sacrifice Bangladesh and develop nuclear weapons to be in a better position today. That's not really an option for the Palestinians.

 

[ArabianEmpires&Caliphates]

Where all the Aramaic speakers, Phoenician speakers etc gone? Are languages not spread by conquest(s)? Do identities never change? And are Egyptians Arab too? Same as Hijazis?

Yup, we're both missing each others points, there are historical points where identities diverge/converge - establishment of Israel was one such point for Mizrahis, the more time will pass they more they'll be "de-Arab-ized" (thanks for the right word though), I see your point that it takes more than 70 years to build a new identity over the previous one but with the constant animosity between them and Muslim Arabs they have stopped identifying as such, add that to the Ashkenazi's cultural dominance in initial years - they have been stripped of their previous identities (with the probable sole exception of Yemenis). Maybe, we can put an end to this debate by citing some surveys on Mizrahi's thoughts? I already gave you their voting patterns.

Modern-day Arabs, this includes Saudi Arabians, Yemenis, Egyptians, Syrians and every Arab nationality that you and I have mentioned so far, are sons and daughters of the soil and are the result of mostly native Semitic peoples and intermarriages of closely related peoples as proven by history, linguistic, geography, DNA, tribal and clan affiliation etc. The Arab identity emerged as the strongest identity in the region as did the Arabic language. Prior to that most of us spoke Aramaic and other closely related languages. Most modern-day ethnicities, even some of the oldest in the world like Arabs, are merely a few millennia old. They did not emerge in a vacuum but as a result of numerous historical events.

I don't know why that is so difficult to understand. The Arab world is a shared geography. The region is inhabited by the same people racially. Caucasian people of a mostly Semitic/Afro-Asiatic speaking stock with the same shared paternal and maternal haplogroups. Modern-day Arabs cluster most closely with each other, afterwards other Middle Eastern people and then Caucasian and Southern European populations. Then there is the Southern Semitic anomalies in Horn of Africa (Habesha) although they have a large Cushitic ancestry and a different phenotype (being African as in Black mostly) yet with a heavy Arabian ancestral influence.

Egypt, just like a huge country like KSA, is divided into regions. Southern KSA is close to Northern Yemen. Hijaz is close to Egypt (almost all Hijazis having Egyptian ancestry down the line - me included and vice versa), Sham, Iraq and Northern Yemen (due to migrations also Eastern and Southern Yemen - for instance OBL's Yemeni father migrated from Hadramawt to Jeddah in search of work - his mother on the other hand was an Alawi Syrian from Latakia) and obviously Najd and regions of KSA. In general Hijaz is one of the most cosmopolitan regions in the Arab world and world due to Hajj and Umrah. As for native Arab Hijazi, they are mostly of an ancient Arab/Semitic stock with close ancestral ties to neighboring Arab regions. Most, especially city dwellers, will have a degree of foreign blood as well, for instance I have Circassian ancestry a few generations ago. But I am in the lucky/unlucky position of being able to trace my ancestry WAY back so even statistically there will be foreign inputs down the road as is the case with practically every person alive anywhere.

Yes, I agree, that the establishment of Israel was such a case, hence why I wrote just that initially. However there is no oxymoron between being an Israeli Jew (as of 2020) and an Israeli Jew of Arab origin. The Israeli Jew of Arab origin (2/3 of all Israeli Jews roughly) can deny or embrace this reality, I personally don't care as it won't change the ground realities. Hence my saying involving the duck. After numerous generations when intermarriages increases between the various Israeli Jewish communities, they will turn into the US in terms of being mixed. After all that was the point of Israel - a so-called homeland of every Jew whether he is an Ethiopian Jew, an Arab Jew, A Polish Jew or a Mongolian Jew.

Well, I suggest taking a look at the video that I posted that deals with what we are discussing. Most Jews of Arab origins did not deny their heritage, rather openly praised Arab culture, then there were others (half Arab, half something else) that felt a lesser attachment. That is natural.

In the end from a racial/ethnic perspective, Israel is very much an artificial creation and as a firm believer in national states being mostly ethnic/cultural in nature (otherwise what is the point of separate states?), I have a hard time taking such states in the "old war" seriously. Multiculturalism has not exactly been a success story (complete) in Israel either let alone elsewhere.

Israeli settlements have already made any independent Palestinian state not really viable. Any potential Palestinian state would be heavily dependent on Israel.... hence under its control. The two state solution is dead. The geographic chess board is set up against any Palestinian state.

Pakistanis can sympathize, the geographic chess board was setup against Pakistan when partition of British India occurred. The British and Hindu elites did not want a Muslim Pakistan to control the entire Indus Valley and insured that parts of Kashmir and Eastern Punjab would go to India. With all that secure water and hydro electric potential, Pakistan would be in great position. Instead the British and Hindus elites gave us a romp part of Bengal that did not include the sparsely inhabited regions to the North east with the head source of the Brahmaputra river, but a territory surrounded by India on three sides and a nightmare to defend. The British and Hindu elites wanted any Muslim Pakistani state to be highly vulnerable to and dependent on India.

Same thing is going on with the Palestinians. I'm not sure what the solution is for them. Pakistan had to sacrifice Bangladesh and develop nuclear weapons to be in a better position today. That's not really an option for the Palestinians.

Most of those illegal settlements are small settlements and if a political solution can be found (huge if), those illegal settlements would be removed. For that there would need to be a guarantor and unbiased third party that both parties could trust. The US is not such a partner. China maybe long-term? I could see it happening.

Against any Israeli state as well as we could hardly talk about an Israeli state if the majority of the population is non-Jewish. Israel was funded as a religious ethno-state and supposed homeland of the Jewish people. If Palestinians outnumber Jews, what Jewish homeland can we talk about? That will happen if the West Bank and Gaza gets annexed.

Not much different to many areas of the Muslim world. Many Arab countries can attest to something similar, have you ever wondered about the existence of entities such as UAE, Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait etc. as separate entities? Can you for once second imagine a single Arab entity that controlled (since 70 + years ago) all the oil, gas and mineral wealth of the region? Remember what happened with Saddam when he invaded Kuwait? Half of the world created a huge military coalition to fight him a few months after that invasion took place.

 

[Naofumi]

In the end from a racial/ethnic perspective, Israel is very much an artificial creation and as a firm believer in national states being mostly ethnic/cultural in nature (otherwise what is the point of separate states?), I have a hard time taking such states in the "old war" seriously. Multiculturalism has not exactly been a success story (complete) in Israel either let alone elsewhere.

In ME (and even in South Asia), religion trumps ethnic affiliations, otherwise why the Mizrahi Jews were expelled in first place? Ben Gurion was interested in an "Ashkenazi only" state initially.

 

[CrazyZ]

Either that or some joint Israeli-Palestinian federation where both Israelis and Palestinians have equal rights and there is free movement of people and Israelis and Palestinians can settle everywhere where they want in that new state. I consider the last option very unrealistic as of today.

Honestly, this may be the only real option for settling the issue. Israel and Palestine would have to be merged into a secular multicultural democracy....kind of like the USA. Jews, Muslims....people from all over the world work together and live in peace in NYC. Why not try that in Tel Aviv.

 

[Naofumi]

Honestly, this may be the only real option for settling the issue. Israel and Palestine would have to be merged into a secular multicultural democracy....kind of like the USA. Jews, Muslims....people from all over the world work together and live in peace in NYC. Why not try that in Tel Aviv.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Nation-State_of_the_Jewish_People

 

[CrazyZ]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Nation-State_of_the_Jewish_People

send me the link to the cliff notes....this is too long.

This ones better:
https://constitutionus.com/

 

[Naofumi]

send me the link to the cliff notes....this is too long.

Relevant part of the laws

The Basic Law comprises eleven clauses, as follows:[29][30]

1 — Basic Principles

A. The land of Israel is the historical homeland of the Jewish people, in which the State of Israel was established.

B. The State of Israel is the national home of the Jewish people, in which it fulfills its natural, cultural, religious, and historical right to self-determination.

C. The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.

2 — Symbols of the State

A. The name of the state is "Israel".

B. The state flag is white, with two blue stripes near the edges and a blue Star of David in the center.

C. The state emblem is a seven-branched menorah with olive leaves on both sides and the word "Israel" beneath it.

D. The state anthem is "Hatikvah".

E. Details regarding state symbols will be determined by the law.

3 — Capital of the State

Jerusalem, complete and united, is the capital of Israel.

4 — Language

A. The state's language is Hebrew.

B. The Arabic language has a special status in the state; Regulating the use of Arabic in state institutions or by them will be set in law.

C. This clause does not harm the status given to the Arabic language before this law came into effect.

5 — Ingathering of the Exiles

The state will be open for Jewish immigration and the ingathering of exiles.

6 — Connection to the Jewish people

A. The state will strive to ensure the safety of the members of the Jewish people and of its citizens in trouble or in captivity due to the fact of their Jewishness or their citizenship.

B. The state shall act within the Diaspora to strengthen the affinity between the state and members of the Jewish people.

C. The state shall act to preserve the cultural, historical, and religious heritage of the Jewish people among Jews in the Diaspora.

7 — Jewish Settlement

A. The state views the development of Jewish settlement as a national value and will act to encourage and promote its establishment and consolidation.

8 — Official Calendar

The Hebrew calendar is the official calendar of the state and alongside it the Gregorian calendar will be used as an official calendar. Use of the Hebrew calendar and the Gregorian calendar will be determined by law.

9 — Independence Day and Memorial Days

A. Independence Day is the official national holiday of the state.

B. Memorial Day for the Fallen in Israel's Wars and Holocaust and Heroism Remembrance Day are official memorial days of the State.

10 — Days of Rest and Sabbath

The Sabbath and the festivals of Israel are the established days of rest in the state; Non-Jews have a right to maintain days of rest on their Sabbaths and festivals; Details of this issue will be determined by law.

11 — Immutability

This Basic Law shall not be amended, unless by another Basic Law passed by a majority of Knesset members.

And majority of Israeli Jews see Israel as an exclusively Jewish state.

https://www.pewforum.org/2016/03/08/israels-religiously-divided-society/