Killer Siachen — 'where a Pakistani soldier dies every four days from the cold'

[Abingdonboy]

very well put!
the point here is lack of trust and paranoia that runs on both sides.
my language would look crude but the thing is India has lost huge number of its men to protect the location and the fact remains for commanders to consider is that, assume hypothetically that both nations move back, and on one day India finds Pak troops occupying the location, all the sacrifices made thus far would go waste and probably would become impossible to wrest back control.
This thought alone is the greatest deterrent against troops leaving their current positions.

Mutually acceptable???
why?
I know many here would call me an arm chair warrior for not supporting demilitarisation of kargil, but i have my reasons.
1) Demilitarisation of kargil is not possible atleast from india's side, as it puts us at the disadvantage of loosing Saltoro ridge. Its a huge source of freshwater for us.
2) Musharraf has repeated it on several occasions, that "there will be more KARGILs". What if he's right??? what if the enemy intrudes??? Thats one reason why India is apprehensive about demilitarisation.
3) From India's point of view- what happens if Pakistan decides to double-cross us post demilitarisation and reoccupy
the precious Saltoro Ridge?
Our next line of defence would possibly be the Ladakh Range and Leh will be within enemy artillery range. Maintenance of Ladakh Range will be severely threatened. Our new defence line will need additional troops and mmay be additional divisions too. Large reserves will be required, including for counter infiltration. Enormous expenditure and time will be needed for preparation of new posts, bunkers, gun positions, helipads, administrative buildings, communications infrastructure, maintenance and recurring expenses.
4) The China factor- China is not our best buddy. To say that China has no plans in Ladakh will be the height
of naivete, considering the persistent ground and air Chinese violations in the area.
5) People,or the so called experts, say that both India and Pakistan loose close to Rs 8-10 cores a day for maintaining their respective posts in Kargil.
Think of it this way, India looses close to Rs 12 crores for maintaining a white elephant called Air India. Are the Indian govt or Pakistani govt ready to close down such public sector ventures??? (I am sure Pakistan, like India, has many white elephants like Air India).

@Abingdonboy @anant_s

The former COAS Bikram Singh puts it very well:

40.00-

He is right- you have to tackle the trust deficit first.

 

[Areesh]

Doesn't compute.

Looks good enough for us. Who won't mind another victory. A moral booster with all the troubles in Punjab and occupied Kashmir.

THere is nothing to decide. A few soldiers' deaths (on either side), though regrettable, are inconsequential in the bigger scheme of things. And today its much easier to maintain the presence in Siachen than it was 10 years back. Going forward, its only going to get easier.

Agreed. In a perfect world India would have realized futility of all this exercise but then again we don't live in a perfect world. So agreed.

You mean, you are defending yourself from the forces deployed on Siachen. Not in Siachen.

Good for chest thumping but it really doesn't matter mate.

 

[Levina]

Well that is the notion here. Deal with it.

As if I care.

 

[surya kiran]

Good for chest thumping but it really doesn't matter mate.

No no. It is educational. For young Pakistanis, the reality of the situation.

 

[Mentee]

aman ka tmasha

 

[amardeep mishra]

Why can't the borders be marked and check posts abandoned in that area if it is mutually acceptable?

The problem is de-alienation, i mean,india wants pakistan to recognize the LOC as international border there in siachin which pakistan has been refusing.If de-alienation becomes a reality then yes we can see a de-militarized siachin.But untill then it will be a dream.
Oh and btw,indian losses over past 5 years has been drastically reduced vis-a-vis pakistan

 

[Zibago]

aman ka tmasha

Bhar mein jaye

 

[Mentee]

ya

Bhar mein jaye

yaran e jahan kehtay hain Kashmir hain Jannat-----

 

[Imran Khan]

leave the ice alone you haters

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Recognize the current ground positions (even extend the LOC keeping that in mind) and then it can be demilitarized. Pakistan's refusal to recognize the current positions is what's keeping this issue alive. India currently controls the whole Siachen glacier, you can't expect us to withdraw from such a strategically important location without any official recognition of our position.

Pakistan's main point is that Indian troop deployments are in violation of the agreement on delineating the LoC - Pakistan's interpretation of 'thence north to the glaciers' is in line with the general direction of the demarcated LoC, that runs in a north-easterly direction and connects with the South-Eastern Tip of the territory Pakistan conditionally allowed Chinese control over. It is the Indian interpretation that makes little sense in terms of a drastic change in the direction of the demarcated LoC.

In addition, even a abrupt '90 degrees north' change in the demarcation of the LoC is not in line with the current Indian military deployment in the region - using AGPL would mean demarcating in a North-West direction.

Asking Pakistan to accept the current ground positions is equivalent to asking Pakistan to surrender its claim in entirety on the basis of a dubious interpretation of the original language of the agreement demarcating the LoC.

 

[deckingraj]

To claim a victory over Pakistan no matter how lame it is. You found a window for you in Siachen and you took advantage of it. And not to forget you got a little portion of your "atoot ang" back which was not in your control before.

what?? really?? well you may think 71 war had nothing to do with India and it was all Mukti Bahini however here we call it an India victory...so help me understand that after such a grand victory which broke your country why would we itch for a victory over Pakistan which as per you is lame??

Well Indians won't mind another victory. With all the troubles in Indian punjab in those days. Who won't mind a vicotry. Even if it is too lame.

???? Man there has to be a limit to conspiracy theories...operation Meghadoot started in April 84 and blue star in June 84...and the real problem in Punjab started post that ...followed by IG assassination and then 10 long years of unrest... let's not link India's internal blunders with Siachen or anything like that...

 

[Areesh]

As if I care.

Apparently you do.

No no. It is educational. For young Pakistanis, the reality of the situation.

Educational Pakistanis should take interest in something more worthy like engineering etc instead of researching on India's occupation of an icebox.

what?? really?? well you may think 71 war had nothing to do with India and it was all Mukti Bahini however here we call it an India victory...so help me understand that after such a grand victory which broke your country why would we itch for a victory over Pakistan which as per you is lame??

Any victory is acceptable for India as far as it is India. No matter what price it would pay for it. No matter how meaning futile that victory is. India would take it if it is against India. So yeah. This lame victory was something which India would never mind as far as it is against Pakistan.

???? Man there has to be a limit to conspiracy theories...operation Meghadoot started in April 84 and blue star in June 84...and the real problem in Punjab started post that ...followed by IG assassination and then 10 long years of unrest... let's not link India's internal blunders with Siachen or anything like that...

Well situation was really bad far before Operation Bluestar. But anyways. As said before. Any victory is acceptable for India if it is against Pakistan. The cost and the return doesn't matter. This is the psyche that lead to operation meghadoot and Siahen conflict.

 

[deckingraj]

Well situation was really bad far before Operation Bluestar. But anyways. As said before. Any victory is acceptable for India if it is against Pakistan. The cost and the return doesn't matter. This is the psyche that lead to operation meghadoot and Siahen conflict.

Well then your mention about Punjab is wrong because if there is phyche it doesn't matter situation is good or bad...will you accept that?? For records..no...the situation worsened only after blue star...then it became a mass movement vs a localized nuance of bhindranwala....and later punjab had to suffer from terrorism for more than a decade...if we go by your logic Siachen should have happened sometime in 85....

Now let's talk about the notion "Any victory is acceptable for India if it is against Pakistan" notion....so has this phyche ended or it is still on??

 

[Areesh]

Well then your mention about Punjab is wrong...will you accept that??
Now let's talk about the notion "Any victory is acceptable for India if it is against Pakistan" notion....so has this phyche ended or it is still on??

Nope. The mentioning of punjab is not wrong. A moral booster was particularly needed in those days. Got it by occupying an icebox. Even though such "victory" is something India won't ever mind.

As for the psyche. It is still going strong. There is no cure for it.

 

[deckingraj]

Pakistan's main point is that Indian troop deployments are in violation of the agreement on delineating the LoC - Pakistan's interpretation of 'thence north to the glaciers' is in line with the general direction of the demarcated LoC, that runs in a north-easterly direction and connects with the South-Eastern Tip of the territory Pakistan conditionally allowed Chinese control over. It is the Indian interpretation that makes little sense in terms of a drastic change in the direction of the demarcated LoC.

In addition, even a abrupt '90 degrees north' change in the demarcation of the LoC is not in line with the current Indian military deployment in the region - using AGPL would mean demarcating in a North-West direction.

Asking Pakistan to accept the current ground positions is equivalent to asking Pakistan to surrender its claim in entirety on the basis of a dubious interpretation of the original language of the agreement demarcating the LoC.

Actually that is where the whole issue is...Moving back without actually notifying where we are is equivalent to leaving that again to the interpretations which is what the root cause of entire Siachen conflict....now given we are already there it is illogical to move back without actually demarcating this piece of area as well...so catch 22 and thus no end to conflict...

Nope. The mentioning of punjab is not wrong. A moral booster was particularly needed in those days. Got it by occupying an icebox. Even though such "victory" is something India won't ever mind.

As for the psyche. It is still going strong. There is no cure for it.

As said a moral booster was required only when situation went out of hand ...which is post blue star...you are not answering this part....

now given we are suffering from this phyche i wonder why there is no more siachen like attempt from our side?? may you please help??