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Khariji in Action: Democratic system is un-Islamic, says Hakimullah Mehsud

I don't remember electing any Mehsud to represent me anywhere.

But then he says that elections are evil inventions by heretics to divide muslims, so the fact that you didn't elect him increases his legitimacy, in his opinion. So if you tell him that, he will only feel proud of himself. Talibani logic.

By the way, many posters here are missing several points when they say that the first caliph was elected. That doesn't make the caliphate a democracy. That makes it an elective monarchy. (And maybe, in the earliest days, direct democracy - which is simply not possible for large societies.)

If one person is elected as a ruler, that is NOT democracy. If the presidential election of the US was the only electoral exercise in the US, the US wouldn't be described as a democracy, and the elected fellow will be an equivalent of an elected monarch.

A society becomes a democracy only if there are many elected REPRESENTATIVES, not elected rulers. The presence of a parliament is what makes India and Pakistan democracies (and the US congress for the US). Having a legislative branch of government, fully elected by the people - that is what makes a democracy. Indeed, India does not even have an elected executive, no equivalent of the US president.

So in short, having elected lawmakers (legislature) is what makes a democracy, not having an elected ruler (head of executive). Many people are confusing democracy and elective monarchy.
 
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Why criticize him? Isn't what Mr. Zaid Hamid Says.

Pakistan's problem is that they have glorified people who never have been democratic.

there was never any effort to establish Pakistan as a democratic state.

Mr. Jinnah wanted a democratic Pakistan, but people do not accept it.
 
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He was not selected by general public vote he was selected by among the best people and than people were asked to take bait to him

Yes the angels came and decided how is best among them.
 
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What he want..

Sharia and Islamic rule in Pakistan...

My view: No View.. :P
 
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Yes the angels came and decided how is best among them.
HAZRAT MUHAMMAD already told them mostly they were the great Sahabas and mainly those who were present in Badar and he ruled till his death
 
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HAZRAT MUHAMMAD already told them mostly they were the great Sahabas and mainly those who were present in Badar and he ruled till his death

There were many not just one - and bait mean person is agree with decision and everyone agreed.
 
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You & your band of rented bastards are all Non Muslims & you talk about Islam. Shut you pie hole SOB, the only thing you deserve is death & that to a brutal one.

Kam farngiyon kai liya kertay hain yai bai iman aur baat Islam ki kartay hain.
 
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killing 50000 innocents blast markets mosques markets airports streets tombs homes beheading solders and all this for islam :confused:
 
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In the Middle Ages, the Islamic concept of al-Shura, or consultation, which relates to modern conceptions of democracy, was abandoned, and Muslims adopted their own traditions. The strictest interpretation of Islam was revived in our time by the Al Wahabi doctrine, which established the fanatic trend in the Muslim world and gave Islam a notorious name. The Wahabis are against democracy, accusing it to be the rule of Satan. However, when we read the Quran, its code and idioms, we find out that democracy is very much a part of the Islamic faith, commandments, values, culture, and society.

Dr. Ahmed Subhy Mansour
 
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@janon actually you are wrong, the Rashidun Caliphate was run as a republic and the caliphwas by no means a monarch, there was also a parliament and even an impeachment process. You should read up on it, also it was only later that it morphed into a monarchy. Everyone knows about Karbala, but apparently nobody knows why they fought in the first place.

In the Middle Ages, the Islamic concept of al-Shura, or consultation, which relates to modern conceptions of democracy, was abandoned, and Muslims adopted their own traditions. The strictest interpretation of Islam was revived in our time by the Al Wahabi doctrine, which established the fanatic trend in the Muslim world and gave Islam a notorious name. The Wahabis are against democracy, accusing it to be the rule of Satan. However, when we read the Quran, its code and idioms, we find out that democracy is very much a part of the Islamic faith, commandments, values, culture, and society.

Dr. Ahmed Subhy Mansour

He is 100 percent right.
 
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@janon actually you are wrong, the Rashidun Caliphate was run as a republic and the caliphwas by no means a monarch, there was also a parliament and even an impeachment process. You should read up on it, also it was only later that it morphed into a monarchy. Everyone knows about Karbala, but apparently nobody knows why they fought in the first place.

I wrote that because many people were saying that the first caliph was elected by vote, and by that statement, implying that it amounted to democracy. It doesn't - it only amounts to an elective monarchy.

Now, coming to your part about the rashidun caliphate - it was not a democracy in the sense in which we use the term today. There are many kinds of democracies as well, but when we say "democracy" these days, we mean at least a representative democracy, maybe a liberal democracy.

When you say that the caliphate had a parliament, I assume you mean the majilis? If so, those were not bodies of elected representatives, which is what a parliament in a representative democracy is. These majilis (they went by a few other terms too, and I cannot recollect those from memory) operated differently in different parts of the caliphate, and as far as I know, they were not composed of a bunch of people voted from specific regions. That is, it wasn't like one member was elected from one province and so on. There were general guidelines on who can become a member, but REPRESENTATION of people by area was not part of the concept. I know that this is true of most of these majilis. Maybe there were some parts where it was practiced in the way modern democracies function - I am not aware of any.

Another thing to note is that in modern democracies, each arm of the govt has a specific function. (Seperation of powers and all that.) The function of the elected representatives is law making. Most of the majilis solely functioned to elect a caliph - that is a good practice, but that is not what we expect our representatives to do today. Or the majilis acted as an advisory council for the caliphs. All this is very different from what we call representative democracy today.

Don't get me wrong, the system of the early caliphate was probably a HUGE improvement over anything that those regions had seen. Only the greeks, 500+ years before them, and in a different geographical region, had invented a better system, to the best of my knowledge. For their time and place, their system was much better than anything else.

However, we have a superior system of governing in the modern day concept of a liberal democracy. Universal adult franchise, general elections, multiple political parties, separation of powers between different branches of govt, universal rights and liberties, these are all necessary conditions for a state to be called a classical democracy today. Most of these did not exist (or did not exist together in any province) in the caliphate. And that is not surprising since, just like other branches of human knowledge evolve, so does political and administrative thought. Just like we know a lot more about science or engineering than people did a thousand years back, we also have better administrative systems today, because we can learn from all the good and bad systems tried in the past.

And that is why it is silly to ask whether something we have today confirms to what we had in the long past. What is a good system of governance should be analysed and arrived at through reasoning, not on the basis of what people in the 7th century did. To ask whether democracy is "Islamic" or not is as silly and pointless as asking whether lightbulbs are Islamic or not. I am pretty sure that the early caliphate did not use electricity or railroads or lightbulbs - does that make any of these unislamic? Should we use railroads or lightbulbs, or should we travel only on camels? How do we decide that question? Not by asking what the people in the early caliphate did, but by using our reasoning to arrive at an answer. The answer of course is that fluorescent lightbulbs are a lot easier and cheaper and efficient to use than oil lamps or wood, and railroads and motor cars are much more efficient than camels. And that is why we discarded one for the other. And that is why today we should shun earlier systems of governance, and adopt the newer ones, if the newer ones are better - which of course should be analysed through reason.

(By the way this talib dude's AK-47 is also unislamic. He should fight with swords, which is what muhammed and his followers did. Same reasoning that he uses to condemn democracy.)
 
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But then he says that elections are evil inventions by heretics to divide muslims, so the fact that you didn't elect him increases his legitimacy, in his opinion. So if you tell him that, he will only feel proud of himself. Talibani logic.

By the way, many posters here are missing several points when they say that the first caliph was elected. That doesn't make the caliphate a democracy. That makes it an elective monarchy. (And maybe, in the earliest days, direct democracy - which is simply not possible for large societies.)

If one person is elected as a ruler, that is NOT democracy. If the presidential election of the US was the only electoral exercise in the US, the US wouldn't be described as a democracy, and the elected fellow will be an equivalent of an elected monarch.

A society becomes a democracy only if there are many elected REPRESENTATIVES, not elected rulers. The presence of a parliament is what makes India and Pakistan democracies (and the US congress for the US). Having a legislative branch of government, fully elected by the people - that is what makes a democracy. Indeed, India does not even have an elected executive, no equivalent of the US president.

So in short, having elected lawmakers (legislature) is what makes a democracy, not having an elected ruler (head of executive). Many people are confusing democracy and elective monarchy.


You may feel that I was perhaps advocating the earlier system, but the truth is that I see the current democratic system in line with Islamic principle of rejecting monarchy and dictatorship and ensuring that people can hold their elected leaders responsible for their deeds.

However I can further some points:
Modern democracy holds parliaments and senate (and their counterparts) as a pre-requisite for a democratic society. But considering a region where kings and rulers came from a long line of rulers and above the law they themselves set, electing a Caliph and being able to hold him accountable under the same law that they were subject to was a democratic and just practice.

Elective monarchy today was a democractic concept yesterday. Times change and so do requirements.

You are right when you say that such a system can not work with larger societies like ours, but the traditional system can be amended to accommodate the change. This is where people like H.Mehsud fail. They do not accept change and are in fact going back to pre-Islamic era of complete control and absolute domination of subjects.
 
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