Kayani should be court-martialed - Even Musharraf blames Kayani for delay because Kayani was scared

[Bang Galore]

got a source to back that perception? I'd doubt it was just the religious right, especially after india started blaming Pakistan for 26/11 and issuing non-achievable ambitions like "cold start doctrine"

Pretty common knowledge. This was pre-26/11 btw. The PPP government wanted to walk back from Musharraf's proposals because they thought that protests in Kashmir that year might actually mean they could push for more Indian concessions. I'm merely pointing out the reasons supposedly given by Kayani, not whether that was credible or the actual reason. In any case, there was a complete rupture with the Indian side who saw the walking back as meaning that Pakistan simply couldn't be trusted to hold up their part of any bargain struck and that it would expose the Indian side to harsh criticism from within if Pakistan were to renege. There was even an interview with Musharraf & Jaswant Singh done by Tim Sebastian where this was alluded to & Jaswant Singh clearly saying that it has reduced the confidence of the Indian side in the negotiations. (Jaswant Singh was in the opposition then, which too was on board) Then 26/11 happened & the rest is history.

 

[I.R.A]

Let me get this straight. Your army directly killed US soldiers? Not once but a couple of times?

We are talking about posts not soldiers...............

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Pretty common knowledge. This was pre-26/11 btw. The PPP government wanted to walk back from Musharraf's proposals because they thought that protests in Kashmir that year might actually mean they could push for more Indian concessions. I'm merely pointing out the reasons supposedly given by Kayani, not whether that was credible or the actual reason. In any case, there was a complete rupture with the Indian side who saw the walking back as meaning that Pakistan simply couldn't be trusted to hold up their part of any bargain struck and that it would expose the Indian side to harsh criticism from within if Pakistan were to renege. There was even an interview with Musharraf & Jaswant Singh done by Tim Sebastian where this was alluded to & Jaswant Singh clearly saying that it has reduced the confidence of the Indian side in the negotiations. (Jaswant Singh was in the opposition then, which too was on board) Then 26/11 happened & the rest is history.

neither side trusts eachother and there hasn't been any trust since I can ever remember...as for this interview you mentioned i haven't seen it so i couldnt comment

 

[doppelganger]

We are talking about posts not soldiers...............

Unmanned posts?

 

[WishLivePak]

You can wish whatever you want to and keep dreaming, and if you are that good at reading just read the below and try to understand your worth

"If you so f**kng wish to get Kiyani Court Martial then ask your bull shit self that do you have balls to do so, otherwise take your wish with you and sell it somewhere else."

I thought u weren't gonna respond to me.

You can't even read what you say.

 

[hunter_hunted]

Mush should be hanged for sending country into US war which cost Pakistan 0.1 million lives till now and 1 trillion $ damage..

you need to kill yourself with your sniper before you kill someone else with your low level trolling

 

[OrionHunter]

if you really think counter-insurgency operations of this scale end in just a matter of days or even a couple years you are sadly naive. The Americans and the combined ISAF/NATO forces are scaling down from Afghanistan and have achieved close to nothing since 2001 whereas in a much shorter time we have done much more to secure our side of the border - with much work remaining.

Say, what has india done to combat naxalites or ULFA or bodo terrorists/insurgents who are occupying huge swathes of territory in your restive northeast? They still pose as much a threat to india today as they have for nearly a decade, perhaps longer?

We will continue the fight against TTP as well as the entities (read countries) that are providing them with the support.

Agreed. What I meant was that if Kayani had bitten the bullet 6 years ago, the TTP would have been almost decimated by now. You've lost those 6 years.

 

[I.R.A]

Unmanned posts?

Yar I was not there and never have been there to witness whether manned or unmanned, when this incident happened I out of my utter frustration asked that how the hell they can trespass and attack our army post and kill our men, and the reply was "Unho nay 1 pay attack kar dia to kya hua, hum nay bhi kafi sario pay kia hai iss say phelay" and this was end of discussion that's all I know.

I thought u weren't gonna respond to me.

You can't even read what you say.

Whatever not interested....... and good to know you can read.

 

[doppelganger]

Yar I was not there and never have been there to witness whether manned or unmanned, when this incident happened I out of my utter frustration asked that how the hell they can trespass and attack our army post and kill our men, and the reply was "Unho nay 1 pay attack kar dia to kya hua, hum nay bhi kafi sario pay kia hai iss say phelay" and this was end of discussion that's all I know.

Translation - "So what if they (Americans) have attacked one of our posts. We (Pakistanis) have attacked many more (not just a couple) of theirs (American posts) before this."

Illuminating.

 

[Sine Nomine]

you need to kill yourself with your sniper before you kill someone else with your low level trolling

No bro if some one comes in my cross hair it means,izrael is coming towards him to take him away and sincerely i am am not trolling.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

My point stands vis a vis your sad tu quoque.

How many of your soldiers were killed at the station/checkpost?

26 including a Major and Captain....but the fight continues and their deaths were avenged. Tide turning in Pakistan's favour slowly but surely; hostile elements in the ANA from that time are either dead or will be sure to be dead. NATO's mission gone totally astray due to their own operational & strategic blunders.

and what you call a "sad tu quoque" is really just a sad reality check for you to dwell upon on your own

Agreed. What I meant was that if Kayani had bitten the bullet 6 years ago, the TTP would have been almost decimated by now. You've lost those 6 years.

Time was lost for reasons I out-lined earlier in this same thread. Action was being taken but there was an issue of consensus on not just a military level but a broader national level as well as resource/manpower constraints - since we have to constantly maintain presence both on the western front as well as on the east, along the LoC and adjoining areas

 

[I.R.A]

Translation - "So what if they (Americans) have attacked one of our posts. We (Pakistanis) have attacked many more (not just a couple) of theirs (American posts) before this."

Illuminating.

You must have seen pictures of that terrain and may be you have idea of how porous that border is. So this is possible, a lot goes on the ground there of which we have a least of idea. Many a times we hear in news here that some check post along the border was attacked by infiltrators from across the border, they come in groups and their dead bodies go back in groups. For example

"By our correspondentWednesday, June 06, 2012
From Print Edition

GHALLANAI: A soldier was killed and three others sustained injuries when militants attacked the Salala checkpost in Baizai subdivision of Mohmand Agency on Monday night, sources in the security forces said.

SDources said dozens of militants equipped with heavy arms attacked the checkpost at night, triggering an exchange of gunfire that lasted for two hours.

As a result, Havaldar Shakeel Mubarik was killed while sepoys Mehboob, Mazhar and Yasir sustained serious injuries. They were shifted to the Combined Military Hospital (CMH) in Peshawar.

Security sources claimed that at least 20 militants were killed in retaliatory fire by the forces.

Meanwhile, Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) spokesman Ihsanullah Ihsan claimed responsibility for the attack and conceded that one of their fighters had been killed in the clash. However, he claimed that heavy losses had been inflicted on the security forces.

On November 26, 2011, Nato helicopters shelled the same checkpost and killed 26 soldiers, including a major and a captain.

The strike drew strong reaction from Pakistan’s civil and military leadership and led to suspension of supplies to the Nato forces in Afghanistan.

Agencies add: According to some reports, the militants who attacked Salala check post came from Afghanistan. Security forces retaliated with full force, killing 20 militants and forcing others to flee, leaving behind the bodies of their accomplices.

Analysts say the Nato attack on Salala check post has paved the way for Afghan militants to target security forces, villages and check posts in Pakistani territory.

They aere of the opinion that the government should consult the Afghan government to stop cross border attacks."

 

[Bang Galore]

neither side trusts eachother and there hasn't been any trust since I can ever remember...as for this interview you mentioned i haven't seen it so i couldnt comment

Ironically, Musharraf was the person who was able to achieve a relationship of trust with not one but two Indian PM's, Atal Behari Vajpayee during 2003-04 and through him (he actually asked Vajpayee to speak with MMS) with Manmohan Singh, It was also the period when there was the closest contacts between the ISI & RAW and it was RAW that warned the ISI (after getting permission from Vajpayee)about a JeM plot to assassinate Musharraf. The ISI chief supposedly forwarded his thanks personally to the RAW chief. This trust lasted till 2007 when Musharraf got enmeshed in the lawyers agitation and GoI began to wonder about his ability to implement his side of the deal. Started tapering off when PPP government & Kayani reneged & 26/11 caused a complete rupture.

 

[Musafir117]

When Musraff start he start from everything like Gen Raheel is doing.
Mushraff was tough against Corrupt Politicians/Right wing Religious Fundos/Taliban/India/Several foreign agencies. Kiyani did a lot of work but not like what Mushraff did. Pasha was more interested in domestic politics rather than other indoor out door threats. Seems to be not a good combined team work.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Was it Musharaf, or someone whose name sounded exactly like him, who said all decisions are taken by core commanders. even his emergency decision.

input and consensus from the CORPS commanders is corner-stone to any decision making process in the armed forces (as would be consensus among Joint Chiefs when there are matters concerning the different branches of the armed forces)

Ironically, Musharraf was the person who was able to achieve a relationship of trust with not one but two Indian PM's, Atal Behari Vajpayee during 2003-04 and through him (he actually asked Vajpayee to speak with MMS) with Manmohan Singh, It was also the period when there was the closest contacts between the ISI & RAW and it was RAW that warned the ISI (after getting permission from Vajpayee)about a JeM plot to assassinate Musharraf. The ISI chief supposedly forwarded his thanks personally to the RAW chief. This trust lasted till 2007 when Musharraf got enmeshed in the lawyers agitation and GoI began to wonder about his ability to implement his side of the deal. Started tapering off when PPP government & Kayani reneged & 26/11 caused a complete rupture.

I dont know much about it but it could very well be true. Kind of like how the ISI tipped off israel's Mossad service about intelligence it had received regarding a possible attack on Jewish targets in bombay....it's regrettable that no action was taken until it was to late