Kashmiri Pandits: Why We Never Fled Kashmir

[Tshering22]

Bravo, a slap on the wrist for many Indians on this forum: Kashmiris are Kashmiris, not "Kashmiri Muslims", "Kashmiri Hindus" nor any other religious pretext. What happened to our Pandit community in the 90s was disgusting, it is something that we, as a people are ashamed of. It is unfortunate that Pakistan has not apologized for the atmosphere fueled/started by ISI-groups in Kashmir, the Pakistani people, though quite supportive of our cause, should come to the realization that it was not only their muslim counter-parts suffering in Kashmir, but those of other religions as well.

However, we, as Kashmiris cannot outward the blame to Pakistan for this; we ourselves are quite condemnable for not doing enough to prevent the mass-exodus of fellow Kashmiris, something we should learn from in the future.

You don't know the bloody stark realities. The Pandits and Buddhists of the valley have no problem with being called Indians. It was always the Kashmiri Muslims especially the Sunnis. What slap in the face? This article highlights that it was his father's contact with the local Muslims that saved his neck. So basically you expect everyone to have big contacts to just live?

It was you lot who created the environment of fear and pain in the state for separating from "Hindu India". Not our kind or Pandits. My relatives were a handful of the tiny Buddhist population who was forced to move to Ladakh and Delhi to survive. No newspaper propaganda will ever change that. What separatists are experiencing in the valley is a creation of their own kind.

Now your geela-ni hides behind "pan Kashmiri" sentiments but this man fails to remember when his men shouting "Allahu akbar" ran amuck killing our and pandit people in broad daylight. All this pan-"Kashmiri" mentality is coming because his financiers (you lot) are fading away while he himself has a leg in the coffin. His lies will never fool us. For my relatives that I have lost there and for the rest of Pandits and Sikhs, we are all Indians and proud to be so.

No force will separate the ancient land from our territory. Not you, not your religion. Never.

 

[Hulk]

A Pandit, who used his contacts with Muslim group to save himself and still lives in that area. If he would have said otherwise, he would have been dead by now.
It is akin to speaking under duress.

 

[Tshering22]

to AM,

But then the UN doesn't really say in your favour isn't it? Even if it doesn't say in ours, which means your terms are simply coined by your government until we have the Instrument of Accession with us. And we do have it safely stored. All the other states had their rulers asked and they joined. Same was with Hari Singh Nalwa.

 

[Kashmiri Nationalist]

You don't know the bloody stark realities. The Pandits and Buddhists of the valley have no problem with being called Indians. It was always the Kashmiri Muslims especially the Sunnis. What slap in the face? This article highlights that it was his father's contact with the local Muslims that saved his neck. So basically you expect everyone to have big contacts to just live?

It was you lot who created the environment of fear and pain in the state for separating from "Hindu India". Not our kind or Pandits. My relatives were a handful of the tiny Buddhist population who was forced to move to Ladakh and Delhi to survive. No newspaper propaganda will ever change that. What separatists are experiencing in the valley is a creation of their own kind.

Now your geela-ni hides behind "pan Kashmiri" sentiments but this man fails to remember when his men shouting "Allahu akbar" ran amuck killing our and pandit people in broad daylight. All this pan-"Kashmiri" mentality is coming because his financiers (you lot) are fading away while he himself has a leg in the coffin. His lies will never fool us. For my relatives that I have lost there and for the rest of Pandits and Sikhs, we are all Indians and proud to be so.

No force will separate the ancient land from our territory. Not you, not your religion. Never.

The article clearly points out he and his family have a strong love for Kashmir and its people, their people; this is Kashmiriyat, something which most Indians point blank deny. Secondly, I doubt a teacher would have "big contacts" and the article refers to family friends, not "big contacts" it also talks of local muslims coming to them telling them that they will be safe.

I tend to disagree with your second paragraph, it's clearly the Indian army at the forefront of causing a terror-induced atmosphere in the Valley, various humanintarian groups agree with me on that front too. If you've got 700,000 troops, where were they when "his men ran amuck killing pandit people in broad daylight" -- you're projecting something like a texas chain saw massacre or something out of Sbrenica, which never happened. Ladakh is a part of Kashmir by the way, where the majority of the Kashmiri Buddhist Community resides.

Blaming Geelani is fun though, where was your army when these figments of your imagination where taking place? The atmosphere created in the 90s was fostered by elements of the ISI -- and groups created by their very organization that are in existance even today. The author also points out abuses of the Pandit community by Indian soldiers and the fact that there was no daily massacre of the Pandit community.

Kashmir isn't about religion as much as it is about a people's right to self determination. If you're projecting most of Kashmir would be happy to join India, I wonder why there hasn't been a referendum yet.

A Pandit, who used his contacts with Muslim group to save himself and still lives in that area. If he would have said otherwise, he would have been dead by now.
It is akin to speaking under duress.

See above response to "big contacts".

 

[Tshering22]

The article clearly points out he and his family have a strong love for Kashmir and its people, their people; this is Kashmiriyat, something which most Indians point blank deny. Secondly, I doubt a teacher would have "big contacts" and the article refers to family friends, not "big contacts" it also talks of local muslims coming to them telling them that they will be safe.

There is nothing called "Kashmiriyat" to non-Muslims. The love for Kashmir is same as anyone's love for home state. the trend of adding "iyat" is yours and not of other people. My blood relations are from the state, genius. They are proud to be a part of J&K and proud Indians. The same is the case with others

I tend to disagree with your second paragraph, it's clearly the Indian army at the forefront of causing a terror-induced atmosphere in the Valley, various humanintarian groups agree with me on that front too. If you've got 700,000 troops, where were they when "his men ran amuck killing pandit people in broad daylight" -- you're projecting something like a texas chain saw massacre or something out of Sbrenica, which never happened. Ladakh is a part of Kashmir by the way, where the majority of the Kashmiri Buddhist Community resides.

We had 7 lakh troops? The maximum was 5 lakh that was posted during peak of 90s when terrorism was common against commoners. I know where Ladakh is and you don't have to tell me that.

Blaming Geelani is fun though, where was your army when these figments of your imagination where taking place? The atmosphere created in the 90s was fostered by elements of the ISI -- and groups created by their very organization that are in existance even today. The author also points out abuses of the Pandit community by Indian soldiers and the fact that there was no daily massacre of the Pandit community.

Figment of imagination because it puts the likes of you in unwanted light. Denial is what you were created on so I don't blame you.

Kashmir isn't about religion as much as it is about a people's right to self determination. If you're projecting most of Kashmir would be happy to join India, I wonder why there hasn't been a referendum yet.

Because none of the participating countries (read your master the Pakistanis and their masters the Chinese) agreed to free up their portions of the state and hence immediately nullified the UN "referendum". You and your kind are most welcome to stay in Pakistan for all we care. But the land stays ours. Simple as that.

 

[rubyjackass]

I would like to point out that the GoIs(aka J&K's) estimate of the Pandits killed is 219. This is not in anyway bloated as claimed by some people here. It was the Pandit rights groups who bloated the numbers as all rights groups do routinely. This is because they usually talk to people for numbers where an element of hearsay enters the numbers.

 

[thebrownguy]

I would like to point out that the GoIs(aka J&K's) estimate of the Pandits killed is 219. This is not in anyway bloated as claimed by some people here. It was the Pandit rights groups who bloated the numbers as all rights groups do routinely. This is because they usually talk to people for numbers where an element of hearsay enters the numbers.

Whats your point genius? What do you believe is the reason for sharp decline in Pundit population from the valley? 216 or 650 or 3000 it does not matter. The message delivered was loud and clear. "GET OUT IF YOU WANNA LIVE"!!! The numbers are not the issue. Is 219 a number to be ignored? Hell even this article quotes a Pandit who says the number was around 650.

 

[Tshering22]

I would like to point out that the GoIs(aka J&K's) estimate of the Pandits killed is 219. This is not in anyway bloated as claimed by some people here. It was the Pandit rights groups who bloated the numbers as all rights groups do routinely. This is because they usually talk to people for numbers where an element of hearsay enters the numbers.

Don't say through your rear. Most government figures are doctored so that there is no communal rioting in the country, hence preferring the safety of one votebank community rather than overall national equality. My relatives were there who escaped to Ladakh with barely their lives and nothing else, half of their family being cut by Muslim mobs. Who're you going to trust? A government that did nothing for the communities there? Or those who actually saw the horrors there?

BTW a word to the wise: the Kashmiri Pandit, Sikh and Buddhist communities are VERY closely knit. Meaning that information (true stuff) flows mong them faster than what sarkari idiots censor or doctor out.

 

[gubbi]

Kashmir isn't about religion as much as it is about a people's right to self determination. If you're projecting most of Kashmir would be happy to join India, I wonder why there hasn't been a referendum yet.

True. It wasnt about religion when it started out. However with time, it began to loose steam and religious fanatics usurped the whole movement turning it into a 'believers vs kuffars' movement. The 'movement' was to doom once Islamic fundamentalists took over it.

As for Kashmiri pundits, there is a term used by the UN to explain the exodus of a whole/majority people of particular faith from one area under fear of death/persecution/discrimination/harassment etc. Its called - ethnic cleansing. Thats what happened in the valley.

Funny that people call for UN mandated (for the whole J&K - and not only in Indian state of J&K, but anywho non-binding) plebiscite while ignoring the description UN uses to define such an exodus of a people. Cherry picking as it suits one's agenda, eh?

 

[Hulk]

There are people in Srinagar that want a particular solution of Kashmir and they have also used unfair means to turn the people view in that direction. I see constantly every crime in valley is tried to be blamed on Armed forces, full propaganda is used to flare things.
Example:-
1) When a boy killed his friend for a girl, blamed on armed forces without any evidence.
2) Shopian Rape case (2009), where it was later found one of the victim was actually virgin and the Kashmir doctor fabricated the report.

The fabrication shows that some people are trying to create anti India sentiments to meet their objectives.
You

After all these attempts of trying to influence the public sentiments by wrongful means, it does not make sense to do any plebiscite.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

to AM,

But then the UN doesn't really say in your favour isn't it? Even if it doesn't say in ours, which means your terms are simply coined by your government until we have the Instrument of Accession with us. And we do have it safely stored. All the other states had their rulers asked and they joined. Same was with Hari Singh Nalwa.

You can go through my arguments on the issue in the relevant threads, and Pakistan has the 'instrument of accession' for Junagadh as well - that didn't stop India from supporting terrorists in Junagadh, invading and annexing it did it?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Funny that people call for UN mandated (for the whole J&K - and not only in Indian state of J&K, but anywho non-binding) plebiscite while ignoring the description UN uses to define such an exodus of a people. Cherry picking as it suits one's agenda, eh?

There is no cherry picking - as pointed out by myself several times, the UN can verify and register both exiled Kashmiri Pandits and Kashmiri Muslims settled abroad UK, Europe, Pakistan), and have them vote in a referendum.

 

[Kashmiri Nationalist]

True. It wasnt about religion when it started out. However with time, it began to loose steam and religious fanatics usurped the whole movement turning it into a 'believers vs kuffars' movement. The 'movement' was to doom once Islamic fundamentalists took over it.

As for Kashmiri pundits, there is a term used by the UN to explain the exodus of a whole/majority people of particular faith from one area under fear of death/persecution/discrimination/harassment etc. Its called - ethnic cleansing. Thats what happened in the valley.

Funny that people call for UN mandated (for the whole J&K - and not only in Indian state of J&K, but anywho non-binding) plebiscite while ignoring the description UN uses to define such an exodus of a people. Cherry picking as it suits one's agenda, eh?

That's a loose definition of the word, of course, continue to put events such as Sbrenica on-par with the exodus of the Pandit community; if there were massacres by the day and the night, then I would tend to agree; but they don't.

Interesting point though, the Kashmiri Muslim community has had more of their community raped, tortured and killed; Kupwara, for example, was almost cleansed of its male population and then there's Kanunpushpora and an estimated 1 million refugees situated in the subcontinet. I wonder, what would this would be? I'd certainly call it ethnic cleansing based on your loose definitions, but in reality, it's pure terrorism -- a methods to subdue a population.

It isn't even about religion now, it's a national struggle, religion only plays one part of it. I've already covered the bit about religious fundamentalism, it was fostered by the ISI -- not Kashmiris.

 

[Kashmiri Nationalist]

There is nothing called "Kashmiriyat" to non-Muslims. The love for Kashmir is same as anyone's love for home state. the trend of adding "iyat" is yours and not of other people. My blood relations are from the state, genius. They are proud to be a part of J&K and proud Indians. The same is the case with others



We had 7 lakh troops? The maximum was 5 lakh that was posted during peak of 90s when terrorism was common against commoners. I know where Ladakh is and you don't have to tell me that.



Figment of imagination because it puts the likes of you in unwanted light. Denial is what you were created on so I don't blame you.



Because none of the participating countries (read your master the Pakistanis and their masters the Chinese) agreed to free up their portions of the state and hence immediately nullified the UN "referendum". You and your kind are most welcome to stay in Pakistan for all we care. But the land stays ours. Simple as that.

I'll just nod politely with the Kashmiriyat bit, and leave historical sources/evidence for you to find for yourself; and the fact that the upper class of Kashmir, the Maharaja and his 'subjects' preferred an independent Kashmir over joining India, a sentiment reflected by many non-muslim Kashmiris at the time.

Estimates rest around the 5-7 lakh estimate; I just felt like pointing out where the majority of the Kashmiri Buddhist community resides.

I'd rather not you make personnel attacks on myself and argue logically, but whatever rocks your boat, eh?

India doesn't even accept those resolutions, I believe. Furthermore, there's a thread on these resolutions which documents India never responded with troop withdrawals to lessen their amount with the introduction of UN forces to maintain a peace. Nobody's going to vacate Kashmir entirely, it's going to be a gradual process and that's what was 'agreed'.

 

[Tshering22]

I'll just nod politely with the Kashmiriyat bit, and leave historical sources/evidence for you to find for yourself; and the fact that the upper class of Kashmir, the Maharaja and his 'subjects' preferred an independent Kashmir over joining India, a sentiment reflected by many non-muslim Kashmiris at the time.

Really? But then the IOA doesn't show that doesn't it? That's what matters. Now digging up graves of false myths just t justify your separatist mindset on religious grounds (last minute "secularism"), doesn't really change the realities.

Estimates rest around the 5-7 lakh estimate; I just felt like pointing out where the majority of the Kashmiri Buddhist community resides.

As a state, they have the freedom to live anywhere in Kashmir as they want when they want. There is no ghettoization as even in Ladakh Muslims are allowed to live. But this was not the case in the valley from where they escaped marginally with their lives.

I'd rather not you make personnel attacks on myself and argue logically, but whatever rocks your boat, eh?

But you doesn't mean you my dear friend, it means your types. What's personal in that?

India doesn't even accept those resolutions, I believe. Furthermore, there's a thread on these resolutions which documents India never responded with troop withdrawals to lessen their amount with the introduction of UN forces to maintain a peace. Nobody's going to vacate Kashmir entirely, it's going to be a gradual process and that's what was 'agreed'.

The terms are discussed in more than just PDF and IDF mate. They've been discussed in a lot of other forums including neutral European and forums like MP as well. Somehow the terms look very different from here that needed removal of Pakistanis and Chinese from the state as well to carry out whatever you're calling.

Plus the violence in the valley due to jihad against my people, nullified any justification and resulted simply in demographic cleansing to justify the separatism.