Kashmir - Think the Unthinkable

[Flintlock]

Hindu Kashmir Group Ends Protest as State Cedes Land (Update1)

By Jay Shankar

Aug. 31 (Bloomberg) -- A Hindu group seeking the transfer of land to caretakers of a shrine in Kashmir ended protests after the state government agreed to its demands, an official said.

``The crunch issue has been accepted,'' Suchet Singh, spokesman for the group, said today by telephone from Jammu, the winter capital of the state. ``The government granted exclusive rights to the Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board to use the land.''

Tension between Muslims and Hindus in Jammu and Kashmir, India's only Muslim-majority state, rose after the government transferred land to the shrine in June. Separatist Muslim leaders in Srinagar protested the transfer and took to the streets demanding an end to Indian rule. At least 34 people were killed, most of them shot by police, during the protests.

Hindus began their own demonstrations after the decision was reversed on July 1, blocking the movement of goods from mainly Muslim Srinagar to Hindu-majority Jammu and other parts of India.

``We got the land back and independence to the shrine board,'' Sharma said. ``These were two issues which we fought for.'' The ownership status of the land will not change, he said.

The 99-acre (40-hectare) site is to be used for building temporary structures for more than 400,000 Hindu pilgrims who trek every year to the shrine in a mountain cave.

A curfew has been imposed in Jammu and troops deployed to stop people from participating in a ``victory rally,'' Press Trust of India reported, citing Deputy Commissioner of Police Mandeep Bhandari. More than 300,000 people may take part and there's a threat of militants disrupting the rally, he said.

Sharma said the rally will go ahead peacefully.

`Celebrate Victory'

``We have told protesters not to confront either the police or the army. We will not force our way through. Let people celebrate their victory,'' he said.

In Srinagar, protesters clashed with police demanding the release of separatist leaders after curfew was relaxed at 9 a.m. local time, Press Trust said. Police used batons to disperse protesters who pelted stones and later re-imposed the curfew.

At least 28 protesters who defied the curfew in Jammu were injured after police fired tear gas shells and used batons. Protesters broke through police barricades to proceed towards a stadium where the rally was to be held, the report said.

Police arrested a separatist leader Yasin Malik Aug. 25 for trying to organize a protest march. Two others, Syed Ali Geelani and Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, were arrested a day before.

Jammu and Kashmir is part of a Himalayan region divided between India and Pakistan and claimed in full by both. The nuclear-armed South Asian neighbors have fought two of their three wars since 1947 over the territory.

More than a dozen Islamic separatist groups have been fighting since 1989 for the state's independence from India or its merger with Pakistan in a conflict that has killed about 50,000 people.

To contact the reporter on this story: Jay Shankar in Bangalore at jshankar1@bloomberg.net.

Bloomberg.com: India & Pakistan

 

[roadrunner]

^^Oh well, Kashmiris getting their democratic rights I suppose there.

I doubt the land would have been transferred if if someone had held a vote amongst all the Kashmiris I doubt it'll go down to well with the common Kashmiri citizen.

 

[Flintlock]

^^Oh well, Kashmiris getting their democratic rights I suppose there.

I doubt the land would have been transferred if if someone had held a vote amongst all the Kashmiris I doubt it'll go down to well with the common Kashmiri citizen.

It won't go down well obviously.

However, the government did the right thing by reinstating the land transfer. The action of revoking it wasn't having much effect anyways.

 

[donrahul]

Just a general question to forummers and my first one too.. Kashmir is a disputed territory.. Agreed.. But what is point of Dispute? It seems that there is a difference of opinion amongs the Pakistanis.. While some say that there should be a plebiscite, which empowers the Kashmiri People to decide their fate, as to whether they would want to be called as Indians, Pakistanis or Independant Kashmiris, The Pakistanis, who are supposedly fighting for the Kashmiris, have different opinions as regards Kashmir..

In case of a Plebiscite, Would the People of *** be voting? Would their voice be taken into account, or is the plebiscite only for people of IOK? If the plebiscite is allowed, and if the people overwhelmingly vote to be with India(Just a conjecture) would the Pakistanis let go off ***? Or if the Plebiscite resulted in Azadi Kashmir, Would Pakistan let go off ***? all of this is under the assumption that A Plebiscite is allowed.. Please Share your views.

Again I quote this! Since this seems to have been bypassed!

 

[Spring Onion]

Just a general question to forummers and my first one too.. Kashmir is a disputed territory.. Agreed.. But what is point of Dispute? It seems that there is a difference of opinion amongs the Pakistanis.. While some say that there should be a plebiscite, which empowers the Kashmiri People to decide their fate, as to whether they would want to be called as Indians, Pakistanis or Independant Kashmiris, The Pakistanis, who are supposedly fighting for the Kashmiris, have different opinions as regards Kashmir..

In case of a Plebiscite, Would the People of *** be voting? Would their voice be taken into account, or is the plebiscite only for people of IOK? If the plebiscite is allowed, and if the people overwhelmingly vote to be with India(Just a conjecture) would the Pakistanis let go off ***? Or if the Plebiscite resulted in Azadi Kashmir, Would Pakistan let go off ***? all of this is under the assumption that A Plebiscite is allowed.. Please Share your views.

rahul it i not what pakistanis want. It is what Kashmiris want .

If they want to be independent having both sides there is no problem.
As far as Pakistan is concerned, Musharraf had even proposed vote in Azad Kashmir in case of Plebiscite in Indian Held Kashmir.

But still India is not likelygo let go its occupation.

There is big difference between Pakistan and India.

India wants the Kashmiri land sans Kashmiris while we want any soultion according to wishes and decisions of Kashmiris.

 

[dr.umer]

It won't go down well obviously.

However, the government did the right thing by reinstating the land transfer. The action of revoking it wasn't having much effect anyways.

It was never issue of a land but definatly it has made govt's intentions to resolving complex issue very clear. They should expect a response now... a very hard one .

 

[donrahul]

rahul it i not what pakistanis want. It is what Kashmiris want .

If they want to be independent having both sides there is no problem.
As far as Pakistan is concerned, Musharraf had even proposed vote in Azad Kashmir in case of Plebiscite in Indian Held Kashmir.

But still India is not likelygo let go its occupation.

There is big difference between Pakistan and India.

India wants the Kashmiri land sans Kashmiris while we want any soultion according to wishes and decisions of Kashmiris.

I hope you are aware of the special constitutional Article which prohibits, non-kashmiris from buying lands in Kashmir and others from settling down.. In fact Hindu Kashmiri Pundits have been chased off.. All efforts have been made to maintain the status Quo.. If the ulterior motive was to acquire the Kashmir valley without the Kashmiris, Do you think that the Article would have been in place ?? The Government might have done something which the Chinese are doing right now.. Alter the Demographic equation of Tibet by populating it with Han Chinese and other Non-Tibetians!!

But My real question has not been answered!! Would P O K would be taken in for plebiscite and would Pakistan be ready to give up P O K? I remember someone in a forum saying that the Letter K in Pakistan Stands for Kashmir.. In that Case, would a independant Kashmir be left independant? (under the assumption that Plebiscite does take place)

 

[Spring Onion]

It was never issue of a land but definatly it has made govt's intentions to resolving complex issue very clear. They should expect a response now... a very hard one .

The question is whether the major party Kashmiris were included in the decision??? NO they were not only the Shrine board and the govt.

The response should be there .

 

[Spring Onion]

I hope you are aware of the special constitutional Article which prohibits, non-kashmiris from buying lands in Kashmir and others from settling down.. In fact Hindu Kashmiri Pundits have been chased off.. All efforts have been made to maintain the status Quo.. If the ulterior motive was to acquire the Kashmir valley without the Kashmiris, Do you think that the Article would have been in place ?? The Government might have done something which the Chinese are doing right now.. Alter the Demographic equation of Tibet by populating it with Han Chinese and other Non-Tibetians!!:

1. India could not take the risk to have setelments in Kashmir owing to the situation there.

2. Even if all the pundits who left the valley if broughtg back can not change demography of Kashmir hence this argument is just a bluff that
if pundits are back the equation will change.

3. Using religion is the easyest way for India to change the demography of Kashmir and this is the rea where India had started work for the last many years.

4. Now you just explain to me the shrine thing and its origion rahul and i promise to prove you and India wrong and expose the real plane of India.

But My real question has not been answered!! Would P O K would be taken in for plebiscite (under the assumption that Plebiscite does take place)

I told you Pakistan even proposed this but India is not willing to go for Plebiscite even then.

 

[donrahul]

1. India could not take the risk to have setelments in Kashmir owing to the situation there.

2. Even if all the pundits who left the valley if broughtg back can not change demography of Kashmir hence this argument is just a bluff that
if pundits are back the equation will change.

3. Using religion is the easyest way for India to change the demography of Kashmir and this is the rea where India had started work for the last many years.

4. Now you just explain to me the shrine thing and its origion rahul and i promise to prove you and India wrong and expose the real plane of India.




I told you Pakistan even proposed this but India is not willing to go for Plebiscite even then.

Regards point 1.
Why should they bother about the safety? Going by the same logic, India should not be executing any projects in dangerous Afghanistan or Iraq..

Point 2: The point which i was trying to make, is that even the native kashmiri Pundits, whose rightful place is in the valleys along with the muslim majority has been chased away!! To appease the muslims...

Point 3: If that were the case, then The government would have banned conversion...

Point 4: The shrine problem was over exaggerated and emotions ran high!! While the people hardly bothered when the Hindu pundits(natives) were chased off, I am wondering why there was such a hue and cry over a paltry piece of land , which measure less than 100 hectares...


For the records, do you know that no other country in this world offers subsidies for Haj Pilgrimage?? Even the hindus are offered nothing for their travel to Hindu Hotspots!!! and Inspite of all these, it pains to hear someone say that India is playin the religious card.. If that were true, Why should the Government let this subsidy continue??

 

[Spring Onion]

I am happy that the Hindu group has withdrawn the agitation. Atleast there is some peace in Kashmir now.

I am sure these politicians will not be using the disputed land, and most of the people actually residing near the forest land will not have any problem with the temporary use.

It is the politicians who are misusing the situation.

I hope there is peace in Kashmir.

Withdrawn the agitation beacuse they were aloted the Kashmiri land which will they use for setlement of non-Kashmir Hindus from India in the long run.
Today 90 acres land and tommorrow you will a palistines like demographic change.


Do you know exactly why this shrine drama was started few decades back ?????

 

[donrahul]

Withdrawn the agitation beacuse they were aloted the Kashmiri land which will they use for setlement of non-Kashmir Hindus from India in the long run.
Today 90 acres land and tommorrow you will a palistines like demographic change.


Do you know exactly why this shrine drama was started few decades back ?????

eR! You are wrong on that count.. The land is not transferred or given to any shrine! The Government will be having the land as before and the Shrine will use it for maintaining facilities during the time of pilgrimage..

 

[dr.umer]

Rage in Kashmir meets India's brute force​

Reuters
By Alistair Scrutton

2 Sep 2008

SRINAGAR, India (Reuters) - The world's largest democracy locks up protest leaders without charge, shoots dozens of demonstrators dead, beats and intimidates ordinary citizens and raids homes without warrants.

Welcome to Indian Kashmir, where the biggest separatist protests in two decades have clashed with the might of the state.

"They are ruthless, trigger happy," said Ghulam Rasool Bhat, a labourer who says he was beaten by federal police after he tried to buy milk for his two nephews under a curfew in Srinagar, the summer capital of Indian Kashmir.

He lay in a bed, both legs bandaged where a soldier, shouting "Get your milk from Pakistan" had smashed a rifle into his shins. His legs felt, he said, as if in a continuous cramp.

Police have shot dead at least 35 Muslim protesters in the Muslim-majority Kashmir Valley after a row over land for a Hindu shrine spiralled into marches and strikes against Indian rule.

More than 1,000 people have been wounded in clashes over three weeks, hospital officials and police say, with the Kashmir Valley often under curfew. Hundreds of people have suffered police baton beatings and bullet wounds, doctors say.

The Indian government says its security forces have been fired upon by protesters on several occasions, and said authorities had "acted within the law and with restraint".

Witnesses said some protesters had thrown stones at police, but said that most were marching peacefully.

India's hardline response to the protests has highlighted what critics say is its lack of strategy to find a solution to a problem that has already sparked two wars between India and Pakistan, who both claim the region in full but rule it in parts.

The crackdown may also be counter-productive. Residents say the deaths and violent crackdown have fuelled anger against India and boosted the separatist cause after years of relative peace.

"The government of India does not have a strategy," said Siddharth Varadarajan, diplomatic editor of The Hindu newspaper.

"It is relying heavily on coercion, arresting top and middle-level leaders in the hope it will break the back of unprecedented protests."

In rare criticism last week, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights called on India to avoid using excessive force. It drew a rebuke from India for interfering in its affairs.

SIMMERING RESENTMENT

For decades there has been simmering resentment at the hundreds of thousands of Indian troops stationed in Kashmir, making it one of the most militarised regions on earth.

Roadblocks, verbal abuse from soldiers and raids on homes have long been a part of daily life.

But as protests spiralled in August, the government sent in battalions of the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF), a federal police force of mainly Hindus who do not speak Kashmiri. Strangers to Kashmir, most residents appear to despise them.

In interviews in Srinagar and nearby villages, tales were similar: CRPF beatings, night raids on homes, verbal abuse and smashed windows. Life has been worse than in previous years.

"They are not human," said Raja, a villager from Newtheed less than an hour's drive from the city. She said soldiers smashed up her home, shouting "We'll show you what freedom is".

In Srinagar, the CRPF has taken over from the local Kashmiri police to enforce curfews and riot control. Residents complain of abuse at the slightest provocation -- selling bread, buying milk.

One surgeon, who asked to remain anonymous because of fear of retribution from Indian authorities, said he has received around 400 wounded people in three weeks, 150 of them hit by bullets.

"These are target killings. It's simple to see," said the doctor, explaining that many of the chest wounds were from weapons such as AK-47s. "Most of these were intended to kill. They were not to disperse a crowd."

Shabir Ahmed Dar, 22, lay in one hospital bed after three operations. He was shot in the abdomen during a protest march to the Pakistani Kashmir border.

"There was no warning from the police. They just fired."

The police firings drew criticism from Human Rights Watch.

"To end this cycle of tragedy, the government should order security forces to act with restraint," it said in a statement.

It is not just a hardline response to street protests. Authorities have detained several separatist leaders without charge. Other leaders, many committed to democratic change and who publicly reject militant violence, were in hiding.

Asiya Andrabi, chief of Kashmir's women's separatist group Dukhtaran-e-Milat (Daughters of the Muslim Faith) who had led some of the protests, has been detained under the Public Safety Act that allows for a year in jail without trial.

The violence still pales in comparison with previous years when officials say more than 43,000 people have been killed in clashes involving Indian troops and Muslim militants since 1989. Human rights groups put the toll at about 60,000 dead or missing.

Some analysts say authorities were in a difficult situation.

"This is a place where security officials are getting attacked every second day," said Brahma Chellaney, professor of strategic studies at the New Delhi-based Centre for Policy Research, referring to the years of militant insurgency.

For Shameema, a 35-year-old woman who sells bread, the fear of police was clear. She talked about how police smashed her and her family with batons for selling bread under curfew. Her husband displayed a wound to his head.

She fell silent for a moment as a federal policeman official walked up to her shop, ominously tapping his baton. Then, realising he could not speak Kashmiri, she talked again.

"I am scared," she said "But we have nowhere to go."

(Additional reporting by Sheikh Mushtaq; Editing by Simon Denyer and Megan Goldin)

 

[third eye]

Withdrawn the agitation beacuse they were aloted the Kashmiri land which will they use for setlement of non-Kashmir Hindus from India in the long run.
Today 90 acres land and tommorrow you will a palistines like demographic change.


Do you know exactly why this shrine drama was started few decades back ?????

Could you pls dwell on this " drama".

The problem was not even half as big as it has been made out to be by short sighted politicians who lost control once things began to spiral out of control.

PDF always had reservations in supporting Congress for its term in the chair. Sniffing the possibility of elections , they promptly withdrew their support thus begining the crisis.

To make it more "current" the issue of land transfer was thrown in, even though the PDF was on board when the decsion was taken, they agitated against it.


What is relevant is that politicians , for their narrow selfish needs will sell their grand mother.. the nation is of no consequence. Making brownie points seems to be more important.

Lastly , if a demographic change was intended, be rest assured it would have been done. 90 acres of Indian land seasonally used by Indians does not in any way tantamount to a demographic change.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Kashmiri people want freedom from militancy, and high security presence. They want to live in their own way peacefully as they did before partition.

I hope both Pakistan and India resolve this issue.

The solution to that has been outlined in both the Instrument of Accession and the UNSC resolutions - it is up to India to arrive at an agreement with Pakistan, to settle the dispute, that allows the Kashmiris the right to determine which nation they live with.