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Kashmir - Think the Unthinkable

So for every society. YOur claim of seeking solution to these problems well well every government do so, so nothing new nor extra ordianry.

How many decades you need. The low cast Hindus are discriminated since thousands of years of Hindusim.
Hate against Muslims is also not new.
And now violence against Christians.

Frankly, I do not need to explain anything to you, and neither does India.

You have nothing constructive to offer us, other than a sneering attitude, and an not-quite-so-well-hidden desire to see our destruction.

I won't bother in the future.
 
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Frankly, I do not need to explain anything to you, and neither does India.

You have nothing constructive to offer us, other than a sneering attitude, and an not-quite-so-well-hidden desire to see our destruction.

I won't bother in the future.

Nither we have to explain anything to you.

A nation that donst have anything to offer herself also fails accept own flaws and correct them instead of defending these.how can others offer then ??

AS far as destruction of India i guess its otherway round.

Our founding leaders never vowed to break India unlike Indian founding leaders who claimed soon after when Pakistan was created that Pakistan is not going to remain on the face of the world not more than limited period of few months.


Ahhhh their spirits in the graves must be restless :pakistan:
 
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Being a civilization, nation and democracy does not mean you get to illegally occupy a people and their land against their will..

The will of people changes. The strength of a civilization is measured by its ability to survive the harshest of storms. This is just one such storm. We have survived worse before, and we will survive many more to come.

Our definition of democracy extends as far as the boundary of our nation, not beyond it.
It is merely a method of better governance. However, when people refuse to be governed, we must abandon these tools for more efffective ones.

Usually it means that you have evolved beyond irrational, immoral and expansionist behavior - in your case apparently not..

It means that the civilization is willing to sacrifice to protect the integrity of its territory.
Its enemies always term this as "expansionist" and "immoral", as they would. As it is their nature to do.
 
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The strength of a civilization is measured by its ability to survive the harshest of storms. This is just one such storm. We have survived worse before, and we will survive many more to come.

Foundations of civilization are laid on the principals of fairness, equality and respect of human being irrespective of their religion, race, color or creed. If foundation of civilization lack basic principals of humanity as obvious in the case under study then STORMS keep coming. Each one more powerful than the previous one.

History has taught us that unimaginable powerful civilizations have perished though they claimed to be indestructible.

There are only two solutions. Either you rethink strategy or remain ignorant and arrogant towards problems faced by your civilization.

Choice is yours.
 
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Keep It Together

ARIF MOHAMMED KHAN

Neither liberalism nor democracy admits ruling people against their will. Democracy is not about ruling people, it is about a periodic selection of a group, by the people, for exercising power on their behalf for a defined time-frame.

I think it is unfair to describe Kashmir's relationship with the rest of India in terms of colonialism of a hue different from the classic one or to compare it with Junagadh, the tiny Muslim state in Gujarat, that had acceded to Pakistan but later integrated with India.

As far as Kashmir is concerned, the Maharaja had signed a standstill agreement with Pakistan on August 15, 1947, that the "existing arrangements should continue pending settlement of details and execution of a fresh agreement". The Maharaja had approached India also but received no positive response.

The Indian attitude can be judged from what V P Menon has written in the 'Integration of States': "We wanted time to examine its implications. We left the state alone. I for one had simply no time to think of Kashmir".

But despite the agreement Pakistan imposed economic blockade on Kashmir to bring pressure on the Maharaja to accede to Pakistan. In October it organised an invasion of Kashmir by army regulars in the guise of tribals.

The invaders entered Muzaffarabad on October 22, 1947 and indulging in a spree of loot and arson reached Baramulla on October 27. They created such mayhem that out of the 14,000 people of this predominantly Muslim town, only 3,000 survived.

This situation forced the Maharaja to dispatch his envoy to Delhi requesting aid on October 24, but India made it clear that Indian troops could be sent only to an area that was part of India, and Kashmir could do so by signing the instrument of accession.

The Indian troops landed in Srinagar on October 27 only after the Maharaja had duly signed the accession instrument. Sheikh Abdullah, who was present in Delhi, also endorsed the request for Indian assistance with accession.

The important question is who resisted the invaders for five days till Indian help arrived. This question has been best answered by T N Dhar, a long-time critic of Sheikh Abdullah. He has written: "The National Conference leaders considered it a breach of trust and a challenge to the self-respect of Kashmiris and since the organisation was deeply entrenched at the grass-root level... the entire population was electrified with repulsion for Pakistan". Not just National Conference volunteers, the entire population stood up against the Pakistani invaders and supported Kashmir's accession to India.

On the other hand in Junagadh, before independence, the nawab repeatedly expressed solidarity with the surrounding Kathiawar states and on April 22, 1947, the official Gazette of Junagadh reproduced a speech of the Junagadh prime minister categorically repudiating allegations that Junagadh was thinking of joining Pakistan. The constitutional adviser of the nawab informed Mountbatten that he had advised the ruler to accede to India.

However, on August 15, 1947, Junagadh, a state that had no common boundary with Pakistan, announced accession to Pakistan under the advice of the new prime minister who was a member of the Muslim League. After receiving this information the government of India sent a note to Pakistan on August 21, explaining that India found it necessary to consult the views of Junagadh's population and asking for an indication of Pakistan's policy in this matter.

Further, on September 12, a telegram was sent to Pakistan stating that India would abide by the verdict of the people of Junagadh. The only reply that India received the next day was that Pakistan had accepted the accession of Junagadh.

It is true that India had stationed troops outside Junagadh, but it did not intervene militarily. It is important to remember that there were autonomous states inside Junagadh, which had already announced their accession to India and asked for Indian protection.

It was not the military action by India but a popular uprising against the nawab that forced him to flee to Pakistan by the end of October. Later, the prime minister of Junagadh wrote to Jinnah explaining the difficulties of Junagadh and through another communique requested the government of India to take over the administration, which was done on November 9, 1947.

Pakistan wanted to have Kashmir because it had a Muslim majority and Hyderabad, Junagadh and Manadar because the rulers in these states were Muslims. But the people of these states were against acceding to Pakistan and hence they became part of India.

The boundaries of a country are not drawn everyday to pacify one agitating group here or there. Pakistan could survive as a nation and as an idea even after losing Bangladesh because it was created on the basis of a divisive ideology. On the other hand, India can survive as a nation but not as an idea if it allows another partition on the basis of religion. India is more than a country; it is an idea that must be defended and protected at all costs.

timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Opinion/Editorial/Keep_It_Together/articleshow/3413795.cms
 
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"There is a simple choice before all Kashmiris," he said. "If you want to be a citizen of a modern democracy with unparalleled opportunities, you will choose self-assured India. If you believe that Islam is in danger and you want the army's protection, you will choose tragic Pakistan."

There is a simple choice indeed, but first India has to give Kashmris that choice.:agree:
 
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Back to Kashmir please - take the 'plight of minorities in India and Pakistan' discussion to the relevant threads.
 
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The will of people changes. The strength of a civilization is measured by its ability to survive the harshest of storms. This is just one such storm. We have survived worse before, and we will survive many more to come.

Our definition of democracy extends as far as the boundary of our nation, not beyond it.
It is merely a method of better governance. However, when people refuse to be governed, we must abandon these tools for more efffective ones.

It means that the civilization is willing to sacrifice to protect the integrity of its territory.
Its enemies always term this as "expansionist" and "immoral", as they would. As it is their nature to do.
There is a difference between an entity weathering a storm to protect itself, and assaulting another.

In the case of Kashmir it isn't about a civilization protecting itself, but about the occupation of a people and their land, and forcing them to owe allegiance to a State and accept its sovereignty against their will - that is occupation, subjugation and a crime against humanity, not 'civilization'.
 
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In October it organised an invasion of Kashmir by army regulars in the guise of tribals.

I am not certain this is correct - though I'll have to dig up references to where I read this.
 
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I do think all this whether the Instrument of Accession was signed, whether it was handed over, how it was handed over are just a diversion.

The important point is

"In the evening, apparently, the decision was taken that we will accept the accession but with the proviso about the reference to the wishes of the people which eventually went into the letter that Mountbatten wrote."

It's clear Mountbatten's acceptance of the Instrument of Accession was only under the condition that a plebiscite was held. Else he would not have accepted it. Which is why the whole of Kashmir is marked as disputed territory.
 
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I do think all this whether the Instrument of Accession was signed, whether it was handed over, how it was handed over are just a diversion.

The important point is

"In the evening, apparently, the decision was taken that we will accept the accession but with the proviso about the reference to the wishes of the people which eventually went into the letter that Mountbatten wrote."

It's clear Mountbatten's acceptance of the Instrument of Accession was only under the condition that a plebiscite was held. Else he would not have accepted it. Which is why the whole of Kashmir is marked as disputed territory.
I agree with that - I thought in that respect the article posted validated the arguments we have been raising.
 
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Just a general question to forummers and my first one too.. Kashmir is a disputed territory.. Agreed.. But what is point of Dispute? It seems that there is a difference of opinion amongs the Pakistanis.. While some say that there should be a plebiscite, which empowers the Kashmiri People to decide their fate, as to whether they would want to be called as Indians, Pakistanis or Independant Kashmiris, The Pakistanis, who are supposedly fighting for the Kashmiris, have different opinions as regards Kashmir..

In case of a Plebiscite, Would the People of *** be voting? Would their voice be taken into account, or is the plebiscite only for people of IOK? If the plebiscite is allowed, and if the people overwhelmingly vote to be with India(Just a conjecture) would the Pakistanis let go off ***? Or if the Plebiscite resulted in Azadi Kashmir, Would Pakistan let go off ***? all of this is under the assumption that A Plebiscite is allowed.. Please Share your views.
 
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Just a general question to forummers and my first one too.. Kashmir is a disputed territory.. Agreed.. But what is point of Dispute? It seems that there is a difference of opinion amongs the Pakistanis.. While some say that there should be a plebiscite, which empowers the Kashmiri People to decide their fate, as to whether they would want to be called as Indians, Pakistanis or Independant Kashmiris, The Pakistanis, who are supposedly fighting for the Kashmiris, have different opinions as regards Kashmir..

In case of a Plebiscite, Would the People of P O K be voting? Would their voice be taken into account, or is the plebiscite only for people of IOK? If the plebiscite is allowed, and if the people overwhelmingly vote to be with India(Just a conjecture) would the Pakistanis let go off P O K? Or if the Plebiscite resulted in Azadi Kashmir, Would Pakistan let go off P O K? all of this is under the assumption that A Plebiscite is allowed.. Please Share your views.

Why is P * O * K censored here??!
 
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