Kashmir - Think the Unthinkable

[Flintlock]

This should be the last time we have to listen to tripe about 'Pakistan censoring its media' from Indians.

Its an emergency provision, which is entirely constitutional. Kashmir is under President's Rule.

When civil society is up and running, the bans will be lifted.

 

[Flintlock]

Rubbish, your own army has no clue, and is using the opportunity to blame Pakistan so as to deflect attention from the fact that the Kashmiris do not care for India.


VOA News - India Again Claims Border Cease-Fire Violation by Pakistan

That's just one article in one newspaper. Conveniently ignoring other sources, are we?

 

[Pankaj]

I'm not trying to prove it, i'm using reasoned logic. Just as you are using (bad) guesswork.

It's a very simple sequence. Suppressed people becoming fundamentlists. Suppression stops, years, perhaps decades need to pass before a country lifts itself out of economic ruin to provide a stable environment where trade and economy can flourish. With this comes education, with education comes a reduction in radicalism and fundamentalism. These are very obvious, and universally acknowledged steps to eradicating fundamentalism, also the reason why the US has been trying to target development of FATA, so that education and a thriving economy can be used to combat fundamentalism. For Afghanistan, if the country is left to develop for say 50 years, fundamentalism would disappear as the economy improved.

I don't think its that simple a sequence. What about the fundamentalism of Saudi Arabia. Fundamentalism is there since long time despite a strong economy and looks like it'll continue till eternity. So there is no guaranty that a state can return to normalcy after ending of so called "suppression" even in 5 decades, a century or a millennium!

No no no. Kashmir has not been getting its "fundamental rights". What about it's right to self determination? What about its legal right to plebiscite? Where are those rights?


The problem in Kashmir is not due to external factors. It is Kashmiris (those in Hizbul Mujahideen) that are fighting the Indian troops. These are not foreign fighters, but in FATA it is foreign fighters which are causing the trouble. (The TTK are not foreign, but they represent one tribe out of many). One would not see pro India displays in NWFP, like one sees pro Pakistan displays in Kashmir.

So you're saying that fundamentalism came before 1947, when the Kashmiris were suppressed, and their plebiscite not given to them? Get it right. Suppression of the Kashmiris occurred from 1947 onwards. Fundamentalism is widely seen to have occured from 1989 onwards. It's clear that fundamentalism came after the suppression. Such blatant lying doesn't help your credibility.

We should be realistic. No country in the world (including your own) gives rights such as "right to self determination" to all its states. We could have done this in past but that time is gone. Rest of all rights including a right to vote has been enjoyed by kashmiris since 1947 till now.

If and when we feel the situation in kashmir is getting out of hand we will get out (which is not going to happen ever). In the meanwhile Pakistan can try all of what it has been doing since independence.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Ah, well here my comments apply to most Kashmiris, since they all support the same Islamist ideology.
Unfortunate, but true.

Hence my point about an ugly side of Indians, in denigrating and stereotyping Kashmiris merely because their jingoism isn’t satisfied, coming out now that it is obvious that the Kashmiris do not care for India.

Kashmiris support Islam perhaps - that is not the same as support for ‘Islamism’, as it is viewed in its modern context. There is nothing wrong with Islam (or for that matter most Islamism). It is presumptuous and entirely wrong of you to proclaim your own views as superior to another’s, and then impose yours upon others. That is what I find dishonest and hypocritical about many purported atheists and secularists – freedom and tolerance exists only so long as their own views remain paramount.

There have been several polls with contradictory results, and you have to choose which ones to believe.

Please post some recent ones from reputable sources contradicting my assertions.

Rite....you have been exemplary in holding elections in Pakistan and in abiding by the UN regulations in case of Bangladesh.

Don't even try please

Well since your nation sponsored terrorism and terrorist groups in East Pakistan to inflame the situation, you hardly have room to talk about that either. And my reference was to our position on Kashmir, we have a moral position of settling our territorial dispute with India by utilizing the legal (IoA and UNSC resolutions) and moral principles of letting the people of the region decide what there future should be – yours is that ‘a billion peoples feelings will get hurt’ and ‘might is right’. No sir, you have no room to talk.

That's what you think....and you conveniently twist our principles to suit your agenda.

I can similarly claim that it is Pakistan's principle to divide society on the basis of religion, and to occupy Afghan territory illegally.

Not at all – RR and I have clearly shown that your argument is nothing more than a nation illegally invading and incorporating a territory into its region (without the consent of its population) and then claiming that ‘its in our constitution’ and we stand by our principles, ignoring the illegal and immoral act that led to the territory being incorporated into the constitution in the first place – the Nazi’s stood by their principles too, it doesn’t make them right.

Thanks for admitting that the 'moderates" are your own men. Now we have one more reason to ensure that their dirty agenda fails.

I don’t know whether they are ‘our men’, but so long as anyone stands for the Kashmirirs legal and moral right to choose their destiny, we should support them. The only ‘dirty agenda’ here is the one that pretends to be ‘tolerant, secular’ and ‘democratic’ yet chooses to occupy a people against legal and moral norms for the sake of irrational nationalism. Keep pushing your dirty agenda – we will keep pushing our moral one.

These polls mean zilch. Did they go to the remote village in Andhra Pradesh to find out what the people there think

How are most polls carried out? Sample populations.

If you think the poll is flawed, find out what the methodology used was, and explain why it was flawed, beyond that you have nothing but a denial of facts laid out in front of you – not surprising, considering that you lot refused to accept the polls by Indian polling agencies that continuously showed that the Kashmiris did not care for India. Of course, now you have egg on your face so the tantrums and continued denials are expected…

That article is crap or you are misreading it. India wouldn't complain to Pakistan regarding the violations if they didn't think that PA was firing.

That's just one article in one newspaper. Conveniently ignoring other sources, are we?

That article, that I posted in this thread, is from the VoA, and quotes an Indian Colonel, so perhaps it is your military that should get its stories straight, and this would not be the first time either, because they couldn’t get there stories straight about the incident where they claimed that the PA tried to set up a post in Indian territory.

Most of the violation reports, if you look at neutral sources that have detailed accounts, also include quotes from IA officials that state that they are not certain whether it is the militants or PA who is firing.

 

[Flintlock]

Hence my point about an ugly side of Indians, in denigrating and stereotyping Kashmiris merely because their jingoism isn’t satisfied, coming out now that it is obvious that the Kashmiris do not care for India.

They are stereotyping themselves by raising Islamist slogans and propagating Jehadi Ideas.

A stereotype isn't a stereotype anymore if it applies to the majority.

Kashmiris support Islam perhaps - that is not the same as support for ‘Islamism’, as it is viewed in its modern context. There is nothing wrong with Islam (or for that matter most Islamism). It is presumptuous and entirely wrong of you to proclaim your own views as superior to another’s, and then impose yours upon others. That is what I find dishonest and hypocritical about many purported atheists and secularists – freedom and tolerance exists only so long as their own views remain paramount.

Nobody ever stopped them from "supporting Islam", whatever that means, which is kinda strange since nobody stopped them from being muslims.

My view ARE superior to theirs. I don't "impose" or "assert" them, but have proved so by pure logical reasoning. Something that the Jehadis are incapable of doing.

Its not hypocrisy. Is it hypocrisy to punish a thief? Isn't it being intolerant of the views of the thief that stealing is okay?

Tolerance has limits, and intolerance is the apt response to an ideology which doesn't believe in tolerance.

Well since your nation sponsored terrorism and terrorist groups in East Pakistan to inflame the situation, you hardly have room to talk about that either.

That's not true. The B'deshis were treated like a colony, in every sense of the word. Something that cannot be said about Kashmir.

Its dishonest to compare the two.

And my reference was to our position on Kashmir, we have a moral position of settling our territorial dispute with India by utilizing the legal (IoA and UNSC resolutions) and moral principles of letting the people of the region decide what there future should be – yours is that ‘a billion peoples feelings will get hurt’ and ‘might is right’. No sir, you have no room to talk.

Well, as we have said before, why don't you set the moral example by doing the same thing in your portion of Kashmir?
That is hypocrisy at its finest, i must say.

Not at all – RR and I have clearly shown that your argument is nothing more than a nation illegally invading and incorporating a territory into its region (without the consent of its population) and then claiming that ‘its in our constitution’ and we stand by our principles, ignoring the illegal and immoral act that led to the territory being incorporated into the constitution in the first place – the Nazi’s stood by their principles too, it doesn’t make them right.

There were no illegal or immoral acts. The ruler of the region acceded to India, after which the occupation by Mujahideen, the bartering of land to China, and the ethnic cleansing of kashmiri hindus made it impossible to get a fair result based on the situation when the referendum was announced.

Today, the situation has changed thanks to Pakistan's illegal war in the region, and it will be unfair to hold any referendum based on an agreement dating more than 50 years ago.

The only illegal and immoral acts were those of Pakistan of inciting and basically engineering the revolt against India in kashmir, in order to propagate the idea that Muslims cannot live with people of other religions and vice versa.

Did you ever think why the rest of the world has no support for these kashmiris, or for the Pakistani view of this situation? Because it is amply clear who has engineered the religious hatred which is now normal in the valley.

I don’t know whether they are ‘our men’, but so long as anyone stands for the Kashmirirs legal and moral right to choose their destiny, we should support them. The only ‘dirty agenda’ here is the one that pretends to be ‘tolerant, secular’ and ‘democratic’ yet chooses to occupy a people against legal and moral norms for the sake of irrational nationalism. Keep pushing your dirty agenda – we will keep pushing our moral one.

A bunch of brainwashed Islamists cannot be trusted with their own destiny, let alone the destiny of millions.

India, as a responsible nation, will do its best to prevent such an unfortunate think from happening, and in the long term, the world will thank us.

Our democracy has certain parameters, one of them being that the leaders who represent the people have to be loyal to the Indian State.
Anyone who does not have allegiance to India is a traitor, and is not fit to be given any respect.

Nationalism is not irrational. It is the very foundation of our country, and infact, all countries, and you cannot claim our nationalism to be irrational while defending your own at the same time.

How are most polls carried out? Sample populations.

If you think the poll is flawed, find out what the methodology used was, and explain why it was flawed, beyond that you have nothing but a denial of facts laid out in front of you – not surprising, considering that you lot refused to accept the polls by Indian polling agencies that continuously showed that the Kashmiris did not care for India. Of course, now you have egg on your face so the tantrums and continued denials are expected…

Indian society is too vast, and too diverse for any sample size of a few thousand to be correct. Perhaps the poll may be somewhat correct for a select number of middle-class Indians, but it can hardly be extrapolated over a fifth of mankind.

You don't need to be a statistician to figure this out. its simple common sense.

That article, that I posted in this thread, is from the VoA, and quotes an Indian Colonel, so perhaps it is your military that should get its stories straight, and this would not be the first time either, because they couldn’t get there stories straight about the incident where they claimed that the PA tried to set up a post in Indian territory.

Perhaps it would do you good to read the other articles on the incident, and more importantly, on the other 20 or so ceasefire violations which took place before this.

Also, do yourself a favour and read the one in which the Indian government lodged a formal complaint with Pakistan.

Most of the violation reports, if you look at neutral sources that have detailed accounts, also include quotes from IA officials that state that they are not certain whether it is the militants or PA who is firing.

If indeed militants are firing, it would be impossible to do without tacit support from Pakistan. So whether you pull the trigger, or ask a militant to do it, the end result is the same.

Infact, making militants do your dirty work is worse, and it is called supporting terrorism.

 

[Flintlock]

Amarnath shrine land row: ‘India will not allow pro-freedom groups to have their say in IHK’

* Indian prime minister says government to fight separatists
* Says shrine board to be allowed use of land at Baltal during pilgrimage

By Iftikhar Gilani

NEW DELHI: It is the Indian government’s resolve not to allow pro-freedom groups to have their say in Indian-held Kashmir (IHK) over the Amarnath shrine land row, said Indian Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh on Wednesday.
In a letter to opposition leader Lal Krishna Advani, the prime minister said the government would fight the separatists. According to BJP sources, the prime minister expressed the government’s resolve to implement the Jammu and Kashmir High Court order in respect of the Amarnath land, adding that it would allow the shrine board to use the land at Baltal during the annual pilgrimage. In the letter, Singh also underlined that the government was ready to hold talks with all parties concerned to find an early and amicable solution to the Amarnath land row.
“The prime minister has expressed his resolve to fight the separatists and the government’s commitment to implement court orders, but these words will have to be proven at ground zero,” said a senior BJP leader.
Meanwhile, Indian State Defence Minister MM Pallam Raju said, “The Amarnath land row has unfortunately occurred at a wrong time. It has nothing to do with infiltration and terror attacks,” he said, refuting reports that the row was raked up to divert the authorities’ attention for easy infiltration across the Line of Control (LoC).
He said the Amarnath land row was the prime reason for trouble in IHK. Talking to reporters on the sidelines of a defence seminar, he said the terror attacks and infiltration bids were aimed at disrupting elections slated for October this year in IHK.
He said forces hostile to India were trying to disrupt the forthcoming elections, but added that the government was well prepared to deal with any problem. “The election process is underway and attempts to disrupt it and infiltration are expected. But we are prepared as a nation to quell any problem that may arise,” said Raju. “Forces behind the disruption want to show they exist. We are taking every step to see that they do not get an upper hand. They will be neutralised,” he said.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

'Disruptive elements in J&K will be neutralised'

New Delhi (PTI): Minister of State for Defence M M Pallam Raju on Wednesday said forces inimical to India were trying to disrupt the forthcoming elections in Jammu and Kashmir but asserted that the government was well prepared to neutralise any problem that may arise.

"The election process is on (in the state) and we expected that there will be attempts to disrupt the process and infiltration is part of that bid. But we are prepared as a nation to quell any problem that may arise," Raju told reporters on the sidelines of a defence seminar here.

"Forces that are behind the disruption want to show that they exist. We are taking all efforts to see that they do not get a upper hand and they will be neutralised," he said.

Stating that increase in infiltration and militant attacks were anticipated as this being an election year for J&K, Raju said there may be plans to disrupt the normal process of polling.

"That is why we are aware and prepared. It is unfortunate that this (militant attack) is happening. I hope that it will discontinue in the near future," he said.

Discounting the Amarnath controversy as a prime reason for the trouble the border state faced today, Raju said row had nothing to do with the increase in infiltration or the terror attacks. He said the terror attacks and infiltration bids are entirely to disrupt the elections slated for October this year.

"The Amarnath controversy has happened at a wrong time unfortunately. But it has nothing to do with it (infiltration and terror attacks)," the minister said.

The Hindu News Update Service

 

[dr.umer]

Indian civil society calls for international intervention in Kashmir ​

SRINAGAR: Indian intellectuals and civil society activists called for international intervention to avoid a humanitarian catastrophe in Indian-held Kashmir, after a stern curfew led to a shortage of medicine, baby milk and essentials, and left hundreds of injured without healthcare.

Two pregnant women have died since Tuesday as Indian troops refused to allow them to go to maternity hospitals, according to a statement sent out on Wednesday, and ambulance drivers were beaten up as dozens of dead bodies and hundreds of injured along with their attendants were stranded at hospitals. Medical personnel were not able to attend their duties as hostile Indian troops deployed on the streets were not honouring identity cards and curfew passes.

“In view of the deteriorating humanitarian situation and the media blackout of the events in Kashmir, we call upon the international humanitarian agencies, particularly the United Nations bodies and the world press, to intervene immediately to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe in Kashmir,” said the statement, signed by a number of noted social activists and civil society organistions.

“Owing to the strict curfew, hundreds of the injured lying in various hospitals of Kashmir are not able to get critical medicines and the attendants are without food. . . The sick and the injured are not able to reach hospitals, resulting in deaths. Attendants of dozens of dead in various hospitals in Kashmir are awaiting transport for the final rites.” The Indian government has indiscriminately banned all newspapers, short message services on mobile phones, and all news and current affairs programmes on local cable TV channels as part of an information blackout. “The flow of information has completely stopped for the first time in the history of Kashmir and no newspaper has been able to publish in last 3 days,” according to the civil society statement. “Such communications blockade is resulting in loss of news about the unfolding events, blackout of significant happenings in Kashmir’s countryside – where currently media has no access – and which is tightly controlled by the army. We call upon the international community to call upon the government of India to lift the communications blockade without any delay.”

The Indian civil society condemned the use of heavy force to thwart peaceful protests, resulting in the killing of 50 civilians. They also condemned an alleged attack by militants that resulted in three civilian deaths. “In view of the four days of stringent restrictions on people’s movement and heavy clampdown by the state forces across the 10 districts of Kashmir, including Srinagar city, we appeal the international community to ask the government of India to immediately ease curfew restrictions so that people are able to access basic essentials.” daily times monitor

 

[ejaz007]

Indian troops kill 3 militants in held Kashmir
Updated at: 1240 PST, Thursday, August 28, 2008


SRINAGAR: Indian troops have shot dead three militants in held Kashmir, the army said Thursday.

"The operation is over. We killed third militant early today (Thursday)," Indian army spokesman Lieutenant Colonel S.D. Goswami told foreign media from the stand-off on the outskirts of Jammu city.

The army, backed by paramilitaries, had killed the two other militants on Wednesday evening during a fierce gun battle.

Indian troops kill 3 militants in held Kashmir

 

[roadrunner]

Oh wow....I won't even bother.



Hizb is headquartered in Muzaffarabad, and its leader is located in Pakistan. Also, it is well known that the group receives support from ISI.

Well, you're wrong on this too ..

Pakistan restricts Hizbul Mujahideen

May 20, 2003 13:23 IST

Pakistan has 'restricted' the Hizbul Mujahideen and said the outfit's leaders, including its chief Syed Salahuddin, have been barred from entering [Azad] Kashmir.

But there is no restriction on the movements of its leaders outside ***, Interior Minister Faisel Saleh Hayat said in Islamabad on Tuesday.

"We cannot ban Hizbul Mujahideen. The ban cannot be applicable because it is not a Pakistan based organisation," he clarified after earlier reports had said that Pakistan banned the outfit. "They (Hizb) are not allowed to regroup as a militant force obviously. Use of militancy is totally out of question, we will not allow them to use our soil to propagate any damaging propaganda or physical activity, which could endanger the life or pose a security threat to Pakistan or any of its neighbours."

The Pakistan government has already banned the entry of Lashkar-e-Tayiba and Jaish-e-Mohammed leaders into [Azad Kashmir].

The restriction on the activities of militant outfits follow a series of statements by Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee that Pakistan should crack down on terrorist groups and destroy their camps to create conducive atmosphere for talks.
Pakistan restricts Hizbul Mujahideen

Hizb are a completely Kashmiri group. They are the ones fighting you. LeT is just a minor group along with all the others.

 

[roadrunner]

Indian civil society calls for international intervention in Kashmir ​

SRINAGAR: Indian intellectuals and civil society activists called for international intervention to avoid a humanitarian catastrophe in Indian-held Kashmir, after a stern curfew led to a shortage of medicine, baby milk and essentials, and left hundreds of injured without healthcare.

Two pregnant women have died since Tuesday as Indian troops refused to allow them to go to maternity hospitals, according to a statement sent out on Wednesday, and ambulance drivers were beaten up as dozens of dead bodies and hundreds of injured along with their attendants were stranded at hospitals. Medical personnel were not able to attend their duties as hostile Indian troops deployed on the streets were not honouring identity cards and curfew passes.

“In view of the deteriorating humanitarian situation and the media blackout of the events in Kashmir, we call upon the international humanitarian agencies, particularly the United Nations bodies and the world press, to intervene immediately to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe in Kashmir,” said the statement, signed by a number of noted social activists and civil society organistions.

“Owing to the strict curfew, hundreds of the injured lying in various hospitals of Kashmir are not able to get critical medicines and the attendants are without food. . . The sick and the injured are not able to reach hospitals, resulting in deaths. Attendants of dozens of dead in various hospitals in Kashmir are awaiting transport for the final rites.” The Indian government has indiscriminately banned all newspapers, short message services on mobile phones, and all news and current affairs programmes on local cable TV channels as part of an information blackout. “The flow of information has completely stopped for the first time in the history of Kashmir and no newspaper has been able to publish in last 3 days,” according to the civil society statement. “Such communications blockade is resulting in loss of news about the unfolding events, blackout of significant happenings in Kashmir’s countryside – where currently media has no access – and which is tightly controlled by the army. We call upon the international community to call upon the government of India to lift the communications blockade without any delay.”

The Indian civil society condemned the use of heavy force to thwart peaceful protests, resulting in the killing of 50 civilians. They also condemned an alleged attack by militants that resulted in three civilian deaths. “In view of the four days of stringent restrictions on people’s movement and heavy clampdown by the state forces across the 10 districts of Kashmir, including Srinagar city, we appeal the international community to ask the government of India to immediately ease curfew restrictions so that people are able to access basic essentials.” daily times monitor

Good article showing reasonable Indians, aside from Flintlock and co do exist. That's why they're intellectuals I suppose.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

They are stereotyping themselves by raising Islamist slogans and propagating Jehadi Ideas.

A stereotype isn't a stereotype anymore if it applies to the majority.

Nobody ever stopped them from "supporting Islam", whatever that means, which is kinda strange since nobody stopped them from being muslims.

My view ARE superior to theirs. I don't "impose" or "assert" them, but have proved so by pure logical reasoning. Something that the Jehadis are incapable of doing.

Its not hypocrisy. Is it hypocrisy to punish a thief? Isn't it being intolerant of the views of the thief that stealing is okay?

Tolerance has limits, and intolerance is the apt response to an ideology which doesn't believe in tolerance.

The denigration and lies from you stem from the fact that you have taken support for Islam, and converted it into a version of Talibanism and continue to talk about 'extremist ideology and hate'. Where I only see the Kashmiris (some) talking about Islam, you want to paint them as Al Qaeda - That is where you are distorting and abusing Islam to paint those espousing it as "Islamists".

That's not true. The B'deshis were treated like a colony, in every sense of the word. Something that cannot be said about Kashmir.

Its dishonest to compare the two.

Two unrelated issues, since my comments were specifically about Kashmir, not about Pakistan being a Utopian state - many nations follow flawed polices and eventually fix them, slavery and segregation in the US for one. India sponsored terrorism and terrorists in East Pakistan to destabilize and inflame the region, and therefore has no room to talk when it comes to East Pakistan.

Well, as we have said before, why don't you set the moral example by doing the same thing in your portion of Kashmir?
That is hypocrisy at its finest, i must say.

And as has been explained to you before - Pakistan would either like to see the UN resolutions implemented, or arrive at an agreement with India on an alternative. A unilateral referendum does not follow the UN resolutions.

There were no illegal or immoral acts. The ruler of the region acceded to India, after which the occupation by Mujahideen, the bartering of land to China, and the ethnic cleansing of kashmiri hindus made it impossible to get a fair result based on the situation when the referendum was announced.

Today, the situation has changed thanks to Pakistan's illegal war in the region, and it will be unfair to hold any referendum based on an agreement dating more than 50 years ago.

The only illegal and immoral acts were those of Pakistan of inciting and basically engineering the revolt against India in kashmir, in order to propagate the idea that Muslims cannot live with people of other religions and vice versa.

Did you ever think why the rest of the world has no support for these kashmiris, or for the Pakistani view of this situation? Because it is amply clear who has engineered the religious hatred which is now normal in the valley.

Illegal and immoral act 1: Not conducting the plebiscite as demanded by the IoA - that means the basis for India's claim to Kashmir was not fulfilled.

Illegal and immoral act 2: Not implementing UNSC resolutions, when they were issued, and when there was no demographic change in the area.

And as RR pointed out, with sources and numbers, unlike your grandstanding and mock indignation, the Muslim demographics in Kashmir have in fact stayed pretty stable, indicating that whatever demographic change has occurred, has not been significant.

Why doesn't the world care? It cares enough to continue to mark JK as disputed, beyond that, it is a world of interests and 'might is right' - it has nothing to do with Pakistan being morally and legally correct, and everything to do with interests. UNSC resolutions on Israel have also gone unimplemented for the same reason.

A bunch of brainwashed Islamists cannot be trusted with their own destiny, let alone the destiny of millions.

India, as a responsible nation, will do its best to prevent such an unfortunate think from happening, and in the long term, the world will thank us.

Our democracy has certain parameters, one of them being that the leaders who represent the people have to be loyal to the Indian State.
Anyone who does not have allegiance to India is a traitor, and is not fit to be given any respect.

Nationalism is not irrational. It is the very foundation of our country, and infact, all countries, and you cannot claim our nationalism to be irrational while defending your own at the same time.

There we go again - someone references Islam, and now Kashmir is a bunch of Islamic fanatics. Who they choose to lead them and how they owe allegiance to is up to them, not to India, and since Kashmir is not legally or morally a part of India, there is not question over the Kashmiris owing allegiance to India.

Nationalism may not always be irrational, but the nationalism displayed by many Indians over Kashmir is irrational - in that they are completely fine with illegally and immorally occupying a territory, incorporating it into their constitution without asking the people of Kashmir, and then claiming 'constitutional principles'!

Sorry, but because you try to validate a crime by making it legal through your constitution does not make it any less of a crime, and because you try and justify it on the basis of 'nationalism' makes it completely irrational.

Indian society is too vast, and too diverse for any sample size of a few thousand to be correct. Perhaps the poll may be somewhat correct for a select number of middle-class Indians, but it can hardly be extrapolated over a fifth of mankind.

You don't need to be a statistician to figure this out. its simple common sense.

Oh please - now we are trivializing scientific methods and processes, as you lot did previously when polls showed Kashmiris did not care for India, becasue it doesn't fit your view.

I repeat - show me scientifically how the methodology for that poll was flawed otherwise shut up. I have no time for your nonsense denying hard facts now because it doesn't fit your argument.

Perhaps it would do you good to read the other articles on the incident, and more importantly, on the other 20 or so ceasefire violations which took place before this.

Also, do yourself a favour and read the one in which the Indian government lodged a formal complaint with Pakistan.

I did indeed read the other articles, which if you had bothered reading my post properly you would have seen. Starting from the first violation this year, there has always been the caveat that the IA and PA did not know who started the firing, the militants or either side, often the firing between militants and one side exacerbating into a firing between the IA and PA.

From all of that, we have one complaint lodged (if, and it is a big if, the IA is to be believed).

If indeed militants are firing, it would be impossible to do without tacit support from Pakistan. So whether you pull the trigger, or ask a militant to do it, the end result is the same.

Infact, making militants do your dirty work is worse, and it is called supporting terrorism.

Hogwash - it is impossible to police that border completely, so it is perfectly possible for the militants to attack without the PA knowing, especially because the PA is set up to keep the Indians out, not preventing people from crossing over, since our prime concern is the IA in that area.

 

[roadrunner]

The comparison with Bangladesh is sheer idiocy. Bangladesh had voted in the 1946 All India elections to be a part of Pakistan. They legally became a part of Pakistan because of this. The subsequent Indian involvement in the internal affairs of Pakistan was terrorism.

Kashmir never had the chance to vote as the Bangladeshis did. They never legally became a part of India because the accession was conditional to plebiscite. So even if Pakistan were interfering in the affairs of Kashmir, it would not be causing terrorism necessarily. Kashmir is disputed territory, any interference by India or Pakistan, is the same terrorism if you like. Bangladesh was legally Pakistan's.

And that Bangladesh was treated like a colony has been refuted on another thread. I personally don't believe so, as the example of many Bengali leaders of Pakistan suggests that Bengalis were actually given preferential treatment in many areas. How many Muslim Kashmiri leaders have you had of India then?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Beyond this, I am still waiting for someone to actually provide a rational non-mythical argument for India's claim to Kashmir, and reason for continuing to refuse to allow the Kashmiris (if not Jammu and Laddakh) to decide their fate through a referendum (as demanded in the IoA nd UNSC resolutions), other than jingoism and hate for Pakistan and Islam.

 

[indopak]

Hey Ram: Let's give away Kashmir
Ramananda Sengupta

Give away Kashmir. Give it the azadi that the people are demanding.
Because our democracy, God bless it, does not allow us to ‘trample over’ the wishes of the people.

And while we are at it, perhaps we should ‘give away’ parts of the northeast as well. Because people there too are chafing over ‘Indian rule.’

In other words, instead of summarily trying and executing the people who blatantly abuse, denigrate and desecrate our nation, who openly raise anti-national slogans on our soil, we should actually bow before their demands. That has been the long-standing demand of our friendly neighbour, Pakistan.

But all of a sudden, sections of the Indian mainstream media -- and people like Arundhati Roy -- are echoing these views.

‘What if he (Syed Ali Shah Geelani, a separatist ‘leader’) and his followers were to adopt the strategies of non-cooperation and satyagraha, which were used (by Gandhi) to gain independence?’ asks Jug Suraiya in an article titled ‘India Minus K-word’, in the Times of India dated August 20, 2008. ‘Could the Indian state use physical force against such a peaceful mass movement — if in fact it did arise, as some say it now has — and still retain its moral idea of itself?’

“If you believe in democracy, then giving Kashmiris the right to self-determination is the correct thing to do. And even if you don’t, surely we will be better off being rid of this constant, painful strain on our resources, our lives, and our honour as a nation?” argues Vir Sanghvi in the Hindustan Times. (Think the unthinkable, August 16)

“India needs azadi from Kashmir as much as Kashmir needs azadi from India,” pontificates Ms Roy, the writer turned whatever.

But if I was scared when I read all this, I was downright terrified when a reasonably reliable contact in one of our intelligence agencies hinted that this was actually a “trial balloon” being floated at the behest of the UPA government, to gauge the people’s reaction to such a proposal.

But then, should I expect better from a government which actually wanted the ban on the Students Islamic Movement of India, clearly linked to the recent terrorist attacks, to be lifted?

So, give in to the demands of people like Yasin Malik, the gent who is not sure whether he wants to be a Gandhi or a terrorist swine. The man who a few days ago was ready to go on a "fast-to-death" like the Mahatma, all for peace, and then let it be known that he was ‘co-ordinating’ his activities with Hafiz Sayed, the maniac who heads the Lashkar-e-Taiba.Let the terrorists win.

Give away Kashmir. After all, it has been a drain on the national exchequer for over 60 years. As Vir Sanghvi explains, “Kashmiri are Indian citizens but Indians are not necessarily Kashmiri citizens. We cannot vote for elections to their assembly or own any property in Kashmir. Then, there is the money. Bihar gets per capita central assistance of Rs 876 per year. Kashmir gets over 10 times more: Rs 9,754 per year. While in Bihar and other states, this assistance is mainly in the forms of loans to the state, in Kashmir 90 per cent is an outright grant. Kashmir’s entire Five Year Plan expenditure is met by the Indian taxpayer.”

Which is why J&K has 3.56 per cent poverty level while Maharashtra has about 25 per cent.

The BJP had pledged to rescind Article 370, which grants special rights to Kashmiris, but reneged on this after coming to power. Apparently doing so could lead to the accession of the state itself being questioned or revoked. Excuse me? So all that talk about the state being an integral part of India is horse manure?

So, after subsidising the state for so long, we should just walk away? After strident declarations, three wars, we should now hand it over on a plate to Pakistan, with our compliments?

Mansoor Ijaz , a Pakistani-American who was reportedly used by President Bill Clinton to mediate on the Kashmir dispute, once told me that “Pakistan had too much blood invested in Kashmir to just walk away.”

India, if we are to accept the Suraiyas, Sanghvis and Roys, obviously does not. We can shrug off the blood being shed by our men in uniform each and every day in Kashmir. Just like we did after the 1971 war, when we agreed to release 90,000 Pakistani Prisoners of War and return more than 15,000 sq km of captured territory, without settling the Kashmir dispute once and for all.

The latest agitation in Jammu and Kashmir was sparked over the allotment of some forest land for Amarnath pilgrims. The separatists immediately denounced this as an attempt to change the demography of the state. They should know, having successfully cleansed the Valley of Pandits earlier.

The government’s knee jerk decision to revoke the allotment of land sparked off protests in Jammu, and there were reports of a blockade of the Kashmir Valley by the Hindus of Jammu. “It’s now Jammu vs Kashmir!” screamed our headlines.

Mehbooba Mufti, the president of the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP), then declared her support for a march --sponsored by the fruit-growers association of Kashmir and the Hurriyat Conference -- towards Muzaffarabad, in Pakistan occupied Kashmir -- to sell their produce.

Instead of letting them go there and then permanently blocking their return, Indian security forces broke up the march. Sheikh Abdul Aziz, a separatist leader, and three others were shot dead by unknown assailants, though our men in uniform were immediately blamed. On the other side of the border, a similar march by Pakistanis reportedly carrying food and other essential items for their brethren in the Valley was halted by Pakistani security forces using tear gas at Chakothi.

But hold on. A week before that, the Indian home ministry said there was “credible and mounting evidence that Hurriyat was using the contrived complaint of an 'economic blockade' to nudge the people to look towards Pakistan-controlled Muzaffarabad.”

Briefing journalists, a senior Intelligence official vehemently rejected reports about the blockade, and said as of the morning of Wednesday, August 13, “over 236 trucks and tankers carrying oil, gas, sheep, medicines and poultry products crossed the Jawahar Tunnel from the Jammu side early in the morning, and at least 82 of these vehicles had reached Srinagar by afternoon.”

As for the trucks reportedly stranded in the Valley, he said a particular transport operator, known to be a Hurriyat man, was stubbornly refusing to let his fleet move towards Jammu despite being repeatedly assured of full security. This, the official argued, indicated that the “so called blockade” had been staged by Pakistan’s ISI and the Hurriyat, to help the latter regain some of its fast eroding credibility in the Valley.

Give away the Kashmir Valley. Forget its economic and strategic importance, it’s immense potential for power generation, and the fact that it gives access to the river heads of the mighty Indus, the Jhelum and Chenab, which flow into Pakistan. Forget land access to Ladakh.

And forget the fact that we will be creating a Waziristan on our borders. Let the Kashmir Valley become the new headquarters of the Taliban, the Al-Qaeda, the LeT, the Jaish-e-Mohammed.

All this, because we do not have the leadership or the statesmanship to tackle the root cause of all the unrest in Kashmir: Pakistan.

If we were to divert or dam the three rivers that feed Pakistan, we could turn that nation into a desert. Have we ever considered leveraging this, the Indus Water Treaty be damned? Surely even the thick-skinned ISI, and the Mad Mullahs who lead the militants, would come to heel when faced with the prospect of indulging in urine therapy to quench their thirst?

We boast of being a superpower in waiting. If India and Indians think that Article 370 in law or "in effect" needs to be abrogated or "ignored" - then let us do it - openly or through subterfuge. Big countries do this all the time. Threaten something bigger, and then revoke the offensive Article, legally or illegally.

“I don't think we yet understand power. I don't think we understand power at all,” Arundhati Ghose, one of India’s finest diplomats, once told me.

“Economically, today we have more power, relatively, compared to what we had 10 or 20 years ago. But we do not understand it. We do not how to use it, we don't know how to project it, we are uncomfortable with it. We are more comfortable with the powerless. If you have power, you have to be able to use it, to leverage it. Be very clear about what it is you want,” said the lady who torpedoed American attempts to force us to sign the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty in August 1996.

And for those who tout our democratic traditions, they need to know that:

Democracy must work for the 500 million people of the Gangetic plains too.
Democracy means that we must punish, not reward, ethnic cleansing.
Democracy means that we must not allow a Waziristan next to Himachal Pradesh.
Democracy means that we must not allow appeasement of the worst human rights abuses.
Democracy means that we must treat all religious groups "equally."
Democracy means the state has the right to do whatever it takes, including the use of brute force, to check elements that threaten it.

Whether it is the Kashmir Valley militants or the Naxals, anyone who believes that force, violence and attacks against specific groups helps their cause must be taught, forcefully if needed, that it does not. Because otherwise we could say that the extreme Hindu groups also are a people's movement against Muslims, so, should we now allow them to target and kill Muslims?

As for morality, let us be very clear that when we're talking about the well being of more than a billion people - moral principles which guide our individual daily lives are not adequate. National priorities cannot be evaluated based on our individual moralities.

Anyone who promotes secessionism or separatism -–violently or peacefully -- should be tried and punished under stringent sedition laws. The boundaries of our nation are not negotiable.

Anyone who uses religion to justify terror or other anti-national acts is the diseased north end of a south-bound swine. And should be treated as such.

And anyone who feels that this is not their country is welcome to try their luck elsewhere.

If we cannot do all this, then why Kashmir, we might as well give away India.

://sify.com/news/columns/fullstory.php?id=14748260

 

[roadrunner]

We should be realistic. No country in the world (including your own) gives rights such as "right to self determination" to all its states. We could have done this in past but that time is gone. Rest of all rights including a right to vote has been enjoyed by kashmiris since 1947 till now.

They do actually. Canada giving the Quebecoise a referendum on forming their own country.

Pakistan actually gives a referendum type vote during each election. Bugti was always allowed to run, as have the ANP. Both have an agenda of autonomy from Pakistan, and both fail miserably in getting any votes. Secessionist, or autonomy parties are not allowed to run in Indian occupied kashmir. I would agree people should be realistic. And the reality is Kashmiris were promised a plebiscite like every British Indian princely state, but were denied it. Who has been terrorised here, and who are the terrorists?

If and when we feel the situation in kashmir is getting out of hand we will get out (which is not going to happen ever). In the meanwhile Pakistan can try all of what it has been doing since independence.

Don't be so sure. Kashmir conflict will get expensive for India in the long run. If Afghanistan could break the Soviet Union, Kashmir could quite easily break India if it gets out of hand.