Kashmir - Think the Unthinkable

[roadrunner]

Afganistan had gone from bad to worse after soviet oppression with no sign of returning into normalcy until American intervention. wonder why?

You call it normal now? The fighting in Afghanistan has been getting worse. Or are you under some sort of news block where you are?

What was the suppression in NWFP region of Pakistan, why that region is facing fundamentalism?

NWFP is peaceful for the most part. There are pockets of trouble in FATA mainly. This is all because of the influx of foreign criminals, Uzbeks and so on. Nothing to do with suppression of the NWFP, which is generally extremely stable.

Fundamentalism can be fomented without suppression as is the case of Kashmir.

Suppression came first in Kashmir. Fundamentalism followed. To say that fundamentalism came first is a lie, to say that fundamentalism is not a product of suppression, is just bad guesswork.

 

[Pankaj]

You call it normal now? The fighting in Afghanistan has been getting worse. Or are you under some sort of news block where you are?

certainly better than what was under taliban rule. But thats not the point. You still fail to prove the theory that when suppression is over fundamentalism vanishes.

NWFP is peaceful for the most part. There are pockets of trouble in FATA mainly. This is all because of the influx of foreign criminals, Uzbeks and so on. Nothing to do with suppression of the NWFP, which is generally extremely stable.

Thats what I am saying. Problem of Kashmir has been fomented by external factors. It had nothing to do with oppression. Kashmiris had been getting all the fundamental rights since the independence.

Suppression came first in Kashmir. Fundamentalism followed. To say that fundamentalism came first is a lie, to say that fundamentalism is not a product of suppression, is just bad guesswork.

No, fundamentalism came first and then suppression followed. I never said that fundamentalism is not a product of supression, but that's not the only way through which fundamentalism takes birth.

 

[roadrunner]

certainly better than what was under taliban rule. But thats not the point. You still fail to prove the theory that when suppression is over fundamentalism vanishes.

I'm not trying to prove it, i'm using reasoned logic. Just as you are using (bad) guesswork.

It's a very simple sequence. Suppressed people becoming fundamentlists. Suppression stops, years, perhaps decades need to pass before a country lifts itself out of economic ruin to provide a stable environment where trade and economy can flourish. With this comes education, with education comes a reduction in radicalism and fundamentalism. These are very obvious, and universally acknowledged steps to eradicating fundamentalism, also the reason why the US has been trying to target development of FATA, so that education and a thriving economy can be used to combat fundamentalism. For Afghanistan, if the country is left to develop for say 50 years, fundamentalism would disappear as the economy improved.

Thats what I am saying. Problem of Kashmir has been fomented by external factors. It had nothing to do with oppression. Kashmiris had been getting all the fundamental rights since the independence.

No no no. Kashmir has not been getting its "fundamental rights". What about it's right to self determination? What about its legal right to plebiscite? Where are those rights?

The problem in Kashmir is not due to external factors. It is Kashmiris (those in Hizbul Mujahideen) that are fighting the Indian troops. These are not foreign fighters, but in FATA it is foreign fighters which are causing the trouble. (The TTK are not foreign, but they represent one tribe out of many). One would not see pro India displays in NWFP, like one sees pro Pakistan displays in Kashmir.

No, fundamentalism came first and then suppression followed. I never said that fundamentalism is not a product of supression, but that's not the only way through which fundamentalism takes birth.

So you're saying that fundamentalism came before 1947, when the Kashmiris were suppressed, and their plebiscite not given to them? Get it right. Suppression of the Kashmiris occurred from 1947 onwards. Fundamentalism is widely seen to have occured from 1989 onwards. It's clear that fundamentalism came after the suppression. Such blatant lying doesn't help your credibility.

 

[Flintlock]

No support from our part - the rest is your responsibility - as RR pointed out, suppression and occupation is what results in extremism, so if it continues its because India refuses to allow the Kashmiris to exercise their fundamental rights.

That's not what the news reports seem to indicate.

 

[Flintlock]

Kashmiris have always resisted being part of India. I think you need to look at what came first. The suppression or the fundamentalism. The suppression has been going on from 1947. Fundamentalism flairs up where suppression exists. The suppression was that they perceived India stole their land by making it part of India without asking them.

The Fundmentalism came first in the form of tribal militants which Pakistan sent over in 1947, and the subsequent policy of keeping the valley on the boil with organizations like Lashkar-e-Toiba and other unaffiliated militants, and monetary support.

Fundamentalism flares where it is encouraged.

 

[roadrunner]

The Fundmentalism came first in the form of tribal militants which Pakistan sent over in 1947, and the subsequent policy of keeping the valley on the boil with organizations like Lashkar-e-Toiba and other unaffiliated militants, and monetary support.

Fundamentalism flares where it is encouraged.

Pakistan did not send any tribes over. The tribes acted on their own free will.

ALL these tribals, however, had vacated Kashmir as per UN resolutions within 2 or 3 years of the conflict leaving only Pak soldiers in Kashmir. Then the problem came of India refusing to reduce its troop numbers which halted the demilitarization necessary to hold the plebiscite.

Lashkar-e-Toiba is a banned and minor militant group operating in Kashmir. The major one is Hizbul Mujahideen which is purely a Kashmiri outfit. Nothing to do with Pakistan. They are the ones India is fighting, not any of the "Pakistani-sponsored" outfits. Even India has renegade militias operating in Kashmir that are as big as Lashkae-e-toiba, but they are irrelevant. The main one is Hizbul Mujahideen, and this group has nothing to do with Pakistan.

 

[Flintlock]

Pakistan did not send any tribes over. The tribes acted on their own free will.

ALL these tribals, however, had vacated Kashmir as per UN resolutions within 2 or 3 years of the conflict leaving only Pak soldiers in Kashmir. Then the problem came of India refusing to reduce its troop numbers which halted the demilitarization necessary to hold the plebiscite.

Oh wow....I won't even bother.

Lashkar-e-Toiba is a banned and minor militant group operating in Kashmir. The major one is Hizbul Mujahideen which is purely a Kashmiri outfit. Nothing to do with Pakistan. They are the ones India is fighting, not any of the "Pakistani-sponsored" outfits. Even India has renegade militias operating in Kashmir that are as big as Lashkae-e-toiba, but they are irrelevant. The main one is Hizbul Mujahideen, and this group has nothing to do with Pakistan.

Hizb is headquartered in Muzaffarabad, and its leader is located in Pakistan. Also, it is well known that the group receives support from ISI.

 

[Flintlock]

Oh please - you are suppressing their right to choose where their sovereignty lies - their legal right (under the IoA and UNSC resolutions) and their human and moral right.

"Supressing their fundamentalist urges?" This discussion is really bringing forth an extremely ugly side of some Indians, stereotyping and denigrating millions of people because they do not agree with your irrational jingoism and need to prevent your 'feelings from getting hurt'.

Look who's stereotyping.

Its not India's fault if they are fundamentalist. Its the warped thinking of the Kashmiris who refuse to see beyond their own narrow noses.

Anything is vulnerable to an extremist interpretation, the trick is keeping proper checks and balances in the system. Pakistan, despite all of Zia's efforts, and the subsequent rise of the Taliban, has remained a primarily moderate country, with its people largely moderate. I think that shows the resilience of Pakistanis to Talibanization and the Kashmiris woudl be no different.

It hardly seems that way given the current events. If the IA moves out now, Kashmir will turn into a fundamentalist haven and an oasis of extremism.

Our principles also include settling a territorial dispute on the basis of human dignity and allowing the people of that territory decide which nation they belong to.

Yeah, and you have been following your principles to the letter

Your analogy makes no sense - the equivalent would be whether you approved of a Hindu revolution in India. Trying to equivocate a changing political system with the immoral and illegal occupation of a people is just ludicrous.

They are both principles that we hold above all else. That's the analogy.

Nothing to lose - Pakistan stepped back from militarily supporting these groups, and the anti-India sentiment has exploded, and been expressed more strongly than when we were supporting those groups. On top of that, the fact that 40 percent of Indians now support a referendum, realizing that 'development' and relative peace hasn't done much to dampen the sentiment.

Pakistan stepped back from supporting militants because those same militants were destroying your own country. Really, you shouldn't try to take the moral high ground.

You learnt your lesson well though, even if it was a bit late. You ramped up support for the so-called moderates in the valley. That is your new strategy.

40% of Indians do not support a referendum. Please prove your numbers.

Also, it is development which is going to help them in the long run, not any amount of Islamist appeasement.

That is what the future roadmap of Pakistani support should be, and I am not surprised that the IA is coming up with these ceasefire violations that the PA has no clue about, since the aim now is to reignite the impression that Pakistan is causing this through support of militant groups.

Ridiculous. the ceasefire violations are a fact and indicate that Pakistan Army is not willing to keep its hands off Kashmir.

Also, yesterday's attack in Jammu by Pakistani militants clearly shows that Pakistan has not stopped supporting the Jehadis.

 

[ejaz007]

Indian civil society calls for international intervention in Kashmir

* Indian troops beat up ambulance drivers, two pregnant women die without medical attention
* Hundreds of injured left without healthcare
* Severe shortage of food, medicine

SRINAGAR: Indian intellectuals and civil society activists called for international intervention to avoid a humanitarian catastrophe in Indian-held Kashmir, after a stern curfew led to a shortage of medicine, baby milk and essentials, and left hundreds of injured without healthcare.

Two pregnant women have died since Tuesday as Indian troops refused to allow them to go to maternity hospitals, according to a statement sent out on Wednesday, and ambulance drivers were beaten up as dozens of dead bodies and hundreds of injured along with their attendants were stranded at hospitals. Medical personnel were not able to attend their duties as hostile Indian troops deployed on the streets were not honouring identity cards and curfew passes.

“In view of the deteriorating humanitarian situation and the media blackout of the events in Kashmir, we call upon the international humanitarian agencies, particularly the United Nations bodies and the world press, to intervene immediately to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe in Kashmir,” said the statement, signed by a number of noted social activists and civil society organistions.

“Owing to the strict curfew, hundreds of the injured lying in various hospitals of Kashmir are not able to get critical medicines and the attendants are without food. . . The sick and the injured are not able to reach hospitals, resulting in deaths. Attendants of dozens of dead in various hospitals in Kashmir are awaiting transport for the final rites.” The Indian government has indiscriminately banned all newspapers, short message services on mobile phones, and all news and current affairs programmes on local cable TV channels as part of an information blackout. “The flow of information has completely stopped for the first time in the history of Kashmir and no newspaper has been able to publish in last 3 days,” according to the civil society statement. “Such communications blockade is resulting in loss of news about the unfolding events, blackout of significant happenings in Kashmir’s countryside – where currently media has no access – and which is tightly controlled by the army. We call upon the international community to call upon the government of India to lift the communications blockade without any delay.”

The Indian civil society condemned the use of heavy force to thwart peaceful protests, resulting in the killing of 50 civilians. They also condemned an alleged attack by militants that resulted in three civilian deaths. “In view of the four days of stringent restrictions on people’s movement and heavy clampdown by the state forces across the 10 districts of Kashmir, including Srinagar city, we appeal the international community to ask the government of India to immediately ease curfew restrictions so that people are able to access basic essentials.” daily times monitor

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

That's not what the news reports seem to indicate.

As posted in the LoC thread, your own defense establishment does not know whether the incidents of firing along the LoC are from militants or the PA, and members of your own defense establishment stated that they did not see any reason why the PA would open up another front on the LoC when it was preoccupied in multiple theatres within Pakistan.

 

[Flintlock]

As posted in the LoC thread, your own defense establishment does not know whether the incidents of firing along the LoC are from militants or the PA, and members of your own defense establishment stated that they did not see any reason why the PA would open up another front on the LoC when it was preoccupied in multiple theatres within Pakistan.

Please, they clearly said that the PA opened fire. India even lodged complaints with Pakistan on several occasions.

Don't blame India if the PA deems it necessary to take advantage of the situation in J&K and push through a few more militants.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Look who's stereotyping.

Its not India's fault if they are fundamentalist. Its the warped thinking of the Kashmiris who refuse to see beyond their own narrow noses.

I was referring to 'some' and it was in response to your own denigrating and patronizing comments about Kashmiris.

It hardly seems that way given the current events. If the IA moves out now, Kashmir will turn into a fundamentalist haven and an oasis of extremism.

It indeed seems that way, since the majority of Pakistanis continue to reject Taliban and AQ ideology in poll after poll beyond that its just your own opinion that does not have facts to back it up.

Yeah, and you have been following your principles to the letter

Indeed we have - we are not the ones refusing to implement a referendum as decreed by the IoA and UNSC resolutions, and we are not the ones treating Kashmiris as adolescents who cannot decide for themselves.

They are both principles that we hold above all else. That's the analogy.

Thanks for accepting that one of your principles is the immoral and illeagl occupation of another people and land.

Pakistan stepped back from supporting militants because those same militants were destroying your own country. Really, you shouldn't try to take the moral high ground.

You learnt your lesson well though, even if it was a bit late. You ramped up support for the so-called moderates in the valley. That is your new strategy.

40% of Indians do not support a referendum. Please prove your numbers.

Also, it is development which is going to help them in the long run, not any amount of Islamist appeasement.

Whatever the reason to switch to supporting non-violent moderates, it was a good decision, as seen by events recently.

You are correct - it was 30 percent, not 40. A bit more to go than I thought.

"Interestingly, a sizeable 30% said if the economic and human costs were this high, it wasn't worth holding on to Kashmir.

The survey, done exclusively for TOI by leading market research agency Synovate India"

Ridiculous. the ceasefire violations are a fact and indicate that Pakistan Army is not willing to keep its hands off Kashmir.

Also, yesterday's attack in Jammu by Pakistani militants clearly shows that Pakistan has not stopped supporting the Jehadis.

Again, see the articel posted in the LoC violation thread that clearly quotes Indian defense officials as saying what I said above.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Please, they clearly said that the PA opened fire. India even lodged complaints with Pakistan on several occasions.

Don't blame India if the PA deems it necessary to take advantage of the situation in J&K and push through a few more militants.

Rubbish, your own army has no clue, and is using the opportunity to blame Pakistan so as to deflect attention from the fact that the Kashmiris do not care for India.

In this latest border incident India claims one of its posts, 80 miles northwest of Jammu, was hit by mortar shells over a 45-minute period. The Indians say they are unsure if the firing was conducted by Pakistani soldiers or insurgents.

A Pakistani military official says there has been no report received of any incident along the line of control on Thursday.

Pakistan denies aiding the infiltrators into India, but considers them freedom fighters.

Colonel Satinder Saini, at India's Institute of Defense Studies and Analysis, says while Indian soldiers were restrained during the latest barrage, they could be provoked to return fire.

"In case the fire is effective or the security of a defended locality is threatened you may find that even Indian troops may retaliate, but nothing of any serious nature. It'll be kind of a controlled retaliation in response to any action by them but nothing beyond that," said Saini.

Colonel Saini, who previously commanded a battalion on the Line of Control, says he does not believe Pakistan's military is eager to increase tensions because of the domestic security challenges the Pakistanis are facing.

"The [Pakistani] army would not like to escalate the situation because all their reserves are committed at the moment in fighting violence and terrorism within Pakistan and on the western borders," he added.

VOA News - India Again Claims Border Cease-Fire Violation by Pakistan

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

” The Indian government has indiscriminately banned all newspapers, short message services on mobile phones, and all news and current affairs programmes on local cable TV channels as part of an information blackout. “The flow of information has completely stopped for the first time in the history of Kashmir and no newspaper has been able to publish in last 3 days,” according to the civil society statement. “Such communications blockade is resulting in loss of news about the unfolding events, blackout of significant happenings in Kashmir’s countryside – where currently media has no access – and which is tightly controlled by the army.

This should be the last time we have to listen to tripe about 'Pakistan censoring its media' from Indians.

 

[Flintlock]

I was referring to 'some' and it was in response to your own denigrating and patronizing comments about Kashmiris.

Ah, well here my comments apply to most Kashmiris, since they all support the same Islamist ideology.
Unfortunate, but true.

It indeed seems that way, since the majority of Pakistanis continue to reject Taliban and AQ ideology in poll after poll beyond that its just your own opinion that does not have facts to back it up.

There have been several polls with contradictory results, and you have to choose which ones to believe.

Indeed we have - we are not the ones refusing to implement a referendum as decreed by the IoA and UNSC resolutions, and we are not the ones treating Kashmiris as adolescents who cannot decide for themselves.

Rite....you have been exemplary in holding elections in Pakistan and in abiding by the UN regulations in case of Bangladesh.

Don't even try please.

Thanks for accepting that one of your principles is the immoral and illeagl occupation of another people and land.

That's what you think....and you conveniently twist our principles to suit your agenda.

I can similarly claim that it is Pakistan's principle to divide society on the basis of religion, and to occupy Afghan territory illegally.

Whatever the reason to switch to supporting non-violent moderates, it was a good decision, as seen by events recently.

Thanks for admitting that the 'moderates" are your own men. Now we have one more reason to ensure that their dirty agenda fails.

You are correct - it was 30 percent, not 40. A bit more to go than I thought.

"Interestingly, a sizeable 30% said if the economic and human costs were this high, it wasn't worth holding on to Kashmir.

The survey, done exclusively for TOI by leading market research agency Synovate India"

These polls mean zilch. Did they go to the remote village in Andhra Pradesh to find out what the people there think?

Again, see the articel posted in the LoC violation thread that clearly quotes Indian defense officials as saying what I said above.

That article is crap or you are misreading it. India wouldn't complain to Pakistan regarding the violations if they didn't think that PA was firing.