Kashmir | News & Discussions.

[Areesh]

lets keep the topic clean without name calling. Its anyway going to get merged with the other thread.

Then why you created a separate thread when there is already a thread which exists on this issue? Frustration or confusion?

 

[toxic_pus]

We have been over this before, but here goes one more time.

They didn't wake up 'one fine day', but when you start a violent rebel movement, especially one based on racial/ethnic hatred, then the chances of atrocities against the other 'race/ethnicity' increase, especially since the rebels are bound by no law. Even more ludicrous is the implication that the EP rebels were doing nothing but standing on street corners chanting and waving flags, and the GoP decide to launch a military operation against them. Operation Searchlight was launched because the rebels had resorted to violence and atrocities. And we see that is exactly what happened as documented in the HR commission report, which also explains the intial media blackout and its repercussions:

[…]

The excerpt from the HR commission covers this and explains why - you are just clutching at straws now to try and hide the shame of atrocities committed by Bengalis - I know, quite a hit to your Bengali sense of superiority over 'West' Pakistanis.

So now the legitimate grievance of the East Pakistani Bengalis against West Pakistanis' deliberate oppressive dominance, which led to the refusal to share State power with the Bengalis, was based on 'racial/ethnic hatred'? Amazing how you learn new things everyday.

Although you find it ridiculous, for obvious reasons, there was no organised rebellion prior to 25/26th March, 1971 because, the Mukti Bahinis being officially formed in mid April in Kolkata, it just was not possible to do so. There is, however, more than enough evidence to suggest that except for some isolated incidents, notably in Wireless Colony on the 4th March, the Bengalis of East Pakistan were doing very little to make their movement violent. Operation Searchlight was not launched ‘because the rebels had resorted to violence and atrocities’. It was launched because Yahya wanted to clean the ‘political stables’.

You can start reading the unclassified US documents in this regard. Let me quote a paragraph from one such document dated 13th March, 1971.

‘Yahya could decide not to take Rahman’s challenge lying down and to retaliate, perhaps to the extent of arresting Rahman and the other leaders, and attempting to clamp a military lid on East Pakistan. There are two basic problems here: (1) Rahman has embarked on a Gandhian-type non-violent non-cooperation campaign which makes it harder to justify repression; and (2) the West Pakistanis lack the military capacity to put down a full scale revolt over a long period.’ [FRUS, Vol XI; pg 19]​

Some excerpt from ICJ report:

‘As from March 3, the army were ordered to return to their cantonments and remained there until March 25. [……] Whatever the reason for the withdrawal, it had the effect of keeping down the violence in a period of extreme tension. [……] Some acts of violence did of course occur but, contrary to the contention of the Pakistan Government in their White Paper, the Awami League leaders were in general successful in maintaining the non-violent character of the resistance. Indeed, even in the White Paper the only killings alleged to have occurred between 6 and 24 March were:

(a) the killing of a demonstrator by a shopkeeper whose shop was being attacked at Khulna on 6 March;

(b) the killing of two escaping prisoners by police at Comilla on 12 March, and the killing of 3 people by the army when barricades were formed at Joydevpur on 19 March. (At the time, Bengali police estimated that about 15 civilians were killed by the army in this incident.)

Not a single person is alleged to have been killed by mobs or by supporters of the Awami League between those dates. The Awami League leaders were determined to maintain the policy of non-violence. Several incidents bear witness to this. [………] We do not suggest that there were no other acts of violence during this period. There is evidence to show that attacks were made on non-Bengalis in Rangpur during the week ending March 13, and at Saidpur on March 24, during which shops and properties were burnt and a number of people killed. But considering the state of tension which prevailed, the extent of the violence was surprisingly restricted.’​

Kelick

So much for your canard. Either those blokes in Washington and the Commission were clueless or you are just another victim of State propaganda. I am inclined to believe it’s the later.

And that thing you are trying to pass off as Hamoodur Rahman Commission Report (HRC report) is actually a supplementary report, which GoP claimed to be based on original HRC report. There is no reason to take this supplementary HRC report as some Gospel truth. In fact using HRC report, supplementary or otherwise, as some evidence is like accepting GoP both as the accused and the jury.

Nevertheless the questions that I have asked are not covered in that supplementary report. Point me to the specific part of supplementary HRC report, or, just to make it easier for you, to any literature that answers these questions.

Why is it that unclassified US documents do not speak of any violence prior to 25/26th March? Why is it that the International media didn’t report anything significant prior to 25/26th March, except for the Wireless Colony incident on 4th? Why is it that the White Paper issued by Pakistan couldn’t account for more than about 384 deaths, which also included death due to Police firing? More importantly, why was PA withdrawn to the barracks as early as 3rd March, 1971, if the situation was as grave as you want all of us to believe?

Finally, the fact that you had to resort to my ethnic identity to make your argument proves that you have run out of arguments.

Now are you referring to the International Court of Justice or the International Commission of Jurists, because they are two distinct entities, the latter just an NGO with a few dozen jurists from various nations. That said, their justification for rebel violence against the State is an interesting one, and I would be interested in reading the entire thing if you could start a new thread on it. However, unless the ICJ is justifying the deliberate and coldblooded massacre of tens of thousands of innocent West Pakistanis by East Pakistani rebels, the excerpt you posted is irrelevant to my point of Indians condemning their nation's policies and support for terrorism in 1971.

I was referring to International Commission of Jurists. Actually ICJ does take note of violence of Bengalis against non-Bengalis. But they also accept that East Pakistan was in a state of a civil war, post March 25/26.

I have given the link above.

There is nothing wrong with recognizing the crimes the Indian State sponsored in 1971, and an condemning them illustrates that Indians are willing to bring a balanced approach to the issues of insurgency, especially with respect to Indian arguments on the Kashmir insurgency. The more you try to find excuses to justify terrorism, the less legitimacy your claims have anywhere else.

Indian State sponsored no crime. Indian State, however, sponsored a struggle for freedom from oppression. Any death of innocent is always regrettable, however, this is the right time to recall that Maospeak:

'A revolution is not a dinner party, or writing an essay, or painting a picture, or doing embroidery; it cannot be so refined, so leisurely and gentle, so temperate, kind, courteous, restrained and magnanimous. A revolution is an insurrection, an act of violence by which one class overthrows another'

 

[giveup]

great news ... kill them all.

RIP to the brave soldier ...

 

[karan.1970]

Then why you created a separate thread when there is already a thread which exists on this issue? Frustration or confusion?

If you go thru the last 2 pages of that thread, you will know...

 

[Awesome]

RIP to the soldier. 3 less swines to take care of.

Third times the charm, you very well know these militants are supported by Pakistanis. If they are swines, then IA's 1 million soldiers in Kashmir are what? Kuttay ke bachay?

The fighters each have a job to perform. Supporting your side is not an issue, but don't degrade the other side in such an immature way.

 

[Areesh]

If you go thru the last 2 pages of that thread, you will know...

Yeah I know about that but mods changed the name of your thread so you can post all these clashes there. So no need to create separate threads and jumping on the seats like kids that our "brave" army has killed three more "terrorists".Just post these things in that thread.

 

[foxbat]

Nagrota (Jammu and Kashmir), May 11 (ANI): Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah on Tuesday admitted that the graph of militancy has risen in the region as compared to the last year.


Speaking on the sidelines of a function of former Defence personnel at Nagrota, around 25 kilometres from Jammu, the CM attributed several reasons for this rise in the militancy while asserting that the security personnel are alert to counter the threats posed by militants.

“As compared to last year, the graph of militancy has increased this year, but this is because we are [now] getting intelligence inputs about their presence and we are trying to catch them,” said Omar Abdullah.

“Last year, we used to wait for them but now we have planned that we will not wait for their action. Whenever we will get actionable intelligence we will launch our operations,” he added.

Abdullah opined that the acts of stone pelting are against the flag of the country and not the state government. On this score, he said the state government is trying to curb the activity of stone pelting by offering better future to the youth of the state.

“Stone pelting is not against the state government this is against the flag of the country. These are those people who want to disturb the atmosphere of the country. Before they were using guns but know they are using different methods,” added Omar Abdullah.

A civilian Shafiq Ahmed Sheikh was killed in Srinagar city on April 30, when stone-pelters attacked a bus he was travelling in, while on way to work. (ANI)

 

[VrSoLdIeRs]

We have been over this before, but here goes one more time.

So now the legitimate grievance of the East Pakistani Bengalis against West Pakistanis' deliberate oppressive dominance, which led to the refusal to share State power with the Bengalis, was based on 'racial/ethnic hatred'? Amazing how you learn new things everyday.

Although you find it ridiculous, for obvious reasons, there was no organised rebellion prior to 25/26th March, 1971 because, the Mukti Bahinis being officially formed in mid April in Kolkata, it just was not possible to do so. There is, however, more than enough evidence to suggest that except for some isolated incidents, notably in Wireless Colony on the 4th March, the Bengalis of East Pakistan were doing very little to make their movement violent. Operation Searchlight was not launched ‘because the rebels had resorted to violence and atrocities’. It was launched because Yahya wanted to clean the ‘political stables’.

You can start reading the unclassified US documents in this regard. Let me quote a paragraph from one such document dated 13th March, 1971.

‘Yahya could decide not to take Rahman’s challenge lying down and to retaliate, perhaps to the extent of arresting Rahman and the other leaders, and attempting to clamp a military lid on East Pakistan. There are two basic problems here: (1) Rahman has embarked on a Gandhian-type non-violent non-cooperation campaign which makes it harder to justify repression; and (2) the West Pakistanis lack the military capacity to put down a full scale revolt over a long period.’ [FRUS, Vol XI; pg 19]​

Some excerpt from ICJ report:

‘As from March 3, the army were ordered to return to their cantonments and remained there until March 25. [……] Whatever the reason for the withdrawal, it had the effect of keeping down the violence in a period of extreme tension. [……] Some acts of violence did of course occur but, contrary to the contention of the Pakistan Government in their White Paper, the Awami League leaders were in general successful in maintaining the non-violent character of the resistance. Indeed, even in the White Paper the only killings alleged to have occurred between 6 and 24 March were:

(a) the killing of a demonstrator by a shopkeeper whose shop was being attacked at Khulna on 6 March;

(b) the killing of two escaping prisoners by police at Comilla on 12 March, and the killing of 3 people by the army when barricades were formed at Joydevpur on 19 March. (At the time, Bengali police estimated that about 15 civilians were killed by the army in this incident.)

Not a single person is alleged to have been killed by mobs or by supporters of the Awami League between those dates. The Awami League leaders were determined to maintain the policy of non-violence. Several incidents bear witness to this. [………] We do not suggest that there were no other acts of violence during this period. There is evidence to show that attacks were made on non-Bengalis in Rangpur during the week ending March 13, and at Saidpur on March 24, during which shops and properties were burnt and a number of people killed. But considering the state of tension which prevailed, the extent of the violence was surprisingly restricted.’​

Kelick

So much for your canard. Either those blokes in Washington and the Commission were clueless or you are just another victim of State propaganda. I am inclined to believe it’s the later.

And that thing you are trying to pass off as Hamoodur Rahman Commission Report (HRC report) is actually a supplementary report, which GoP claimed to be based on original HRC report. There is no reason to take this supplementary HRC report as some Gospel truth. In fact using HRC report, supplementary or otherwise, as some evidence is like accepting GoP both as the accused and the jury.

Nevertheless the questions that I have asked are not covered in that supplementary report. Point me to the specific part of supplementary HRC report, or, just to make it easier for you, to any literature that answers these questions.

Why is it that unclassified US documents do not speak of any violence prior to 25/26th March? Why is it that the International media didn’t report anything significant prior to 25/26th March, except for the Wireless Colony incident on 4th? Why is it that the White Paper issued by Pakistan couldn’t account for more than about 384 deaths, which also included death due to Police firing? More importantly, why was PA withdrawn to the barracks as early as 3rd March, 1971, if the situation was as grave as you want all of us to believe?

Finally, the fact that you had to resort to my ethnic identity to make your argument proves that you have run out of arguments.

I was referring to International Commission of Jurists. Actually ICJ does take note of violence of Bengalis against non-Bengalis. But they also accept that East Pakistan was in a state of a civil war, post March 25/26.

I have given the link above.

Indian State sponsored no crime. Indian State, however, sponsored a struggle for freedom from oppression. Any death of innocent is always regrettable, however, this is the right time to recall that Maospeak:

'A revolution is not a dinner party, or writing an essay, or painting a picture, or doing embroidery; it cannot be so refined, so leisurely and gentle, so temperate, kind, courteous, restrained and magnanimous. A revolution is an insurrection, an act of violence by which one class overthrows another'

no pre march violence right?? no organized haterd??? simply innocent unarmed bengalis right??? how come the soldiers were fired at, at dhaka uni during operation searchlight???

so operation was of one night and all of a suddent those poor innocent bengalis turn into monsters... aint it strange??? just one night and whole east pakistan starts burning.... where did they get the weapons and the support, to take out not only civilians but army men as well???

 

[Aslan]

no pre march violence right?? no organized haterd??? simply innocent unarmed bengalis right??? how come the soldiers were fired at, at dhaka uni during operation searchlight???

so operation was of one night and all of a suddent those poor innocent bengalis turn into monsters... aint it strange??? just one night and whole east pakistan starts burning.... where did they get the weapons and the support, to take out not only civilians but army men as well???

There is no need to explain it to them, deep down they know that their country messed up! But the Gandhian philosophy that they hold so dearly is not even implemented in their own country, but that will kill them to believe it. And yet they come here with a smug like face to lecture us about every thing with out even looking with in them selves and at their own country. I would suggest you guys to read the below by "AGNOSTIC MUSLIM" Post # 6

I hope Indians will also condemn the terrorist acts (atrocities against tens of thousands of civilians in EP) by rebels in East Pakistan and Indian State support for such terrorism to show that they are indeed applying a balanced approach to events.

There have been instances today in which Indian members used reasoning identical to their excuses for supporting terrorism in East Pakistan, to support recent terrorists attacks by the BLA in Baluchistan - the massacres of school teachers, college lecturers and principals. These are acts that the BLA has itself proudly claimed, and has vowed to continue. The BLA has also in essence vowed to commit genocide in Baluchistan, by eliminating all non-Baluch ethnicities in the province, especially Punjabis.

This kind of double game and 'good terrorist vs bad terrorist' distinction by the Indians, in both Baluchistan and East Pakistan, needs to stop.


http://www.defence.pk/forums/forum-...ance-policy-support-terrorism.html#post849458

 

[VrSoLdIeRs]

There is no need to explain it to them, deep down they know that their country messed up! But the Gandhian philosophy that they hold so dearly is not even implemented in their own country, but that will kill them to believe it. And yet they come here with a smug like face to lecture us about every thing with out even looking with in them selves and at their own country. I would suggest you guys to read the below by "AGNOSTIC MUSLIM" Post # 6

I hope Indians will also condemn the terrorist acts (atrocities against tens of thousands of civilians in EP) by rebels in East Pakistan and Indian State support for such terrorism to show that they are indeed applying a balanced approach to events.

There have been instances today in which Indian members used reasoning identical to their excuses for supporting terrorism in East Pakistan, to support recent terrorists attacks by the BLA in Baluchistan - the massacres of school teachers, college lecturers and principals. These are acts that the BLA has itself proudly claimed, and has vowed to continue. The BLA has also in essence vowed to commit genocide in Baluchistan, by eliminating all non-Baluch ethnicities in the province, especially Punjabis.

This kind of double game and 'good terrorist vs bad terrorist' distinction by the Indians, in both Baluchistan and East Pakistan, needs to stop.


http://www.defence.pk/forums/forum-...ance-policy-support-terrorism.html#post849458

soo true yaar... people werent that innocent, where ever you search you can only find one side of the story... what about the west pakistanis and biharis???

 

[dabong1]

Well more then 70% of Police in Kashmir is Kashmiris . And a majority of them are Muslims.

Moreover: CRPF hires young men from the same area and trains them as they know the terrain very well, this helps in identifying and killing terrorists faster. (There are about 70 Battalion of CRPF in Kashmir that means around 90000 men) and majority of them Drawn from state of Jammu and Kashmir.

India Army comes to action only if called for. Majority of the work is Done by CRPF(Central reserve Police Force). So now tell me if a terrorist is killing a CRPF jawan. the chances are that he is killing a Kashmiri and most probably a Muslim. So there goes the support for terrorists put of the window.

Nice strategy deployed by Indian security forces.

Time for some news: Army undertakes recruitment drive in Kashmir Valley

Army undertakes recruitment drive in Kashmir Valley

Kupwara (Jammu and Kashmir), May 9: The Indian Army is conducting a recruitment rally in the Kupwara District of Jammu and Kashmir to provide an opportunity to unemployed youth to join.

The rally is being conducted in phases. Currently, it is being held at the headquarters of 28 Infantry Division in Kupwara.

"We started the recruitment rally on April 30. The phase one of the rally was conducted in Tangdhar and Vajra Shakti Bridage (It involves exercising an infantry division and an independent mechanized brigade of 11 Corps). They requested us and you know that it is a difficult and remote region of the country. The second phase is being conducted here in Trigram, as you can see. This is the Vajra Division; the rally is being conducted here on their request," said Brigadier K D Malhotra, 28 Infantry Division, Kupwara.

He also said that several candidates have turned up in spite of bad weather. Passion for joining the army could be seen in every candidate, he added.

"Sir, I would love to join the army. I had a brother who was in the army. One day we went to a forest just like that, where he was shot dead in front of me. That day, I took a pledge to join the army. I feel that even if I have to sacrifice my life, I would do that because I have seen so much," said Ghulam Qadir, a candidate.

Unemployment is a major problem in the border and militancy prone areas of the Kashmir Valley. Such rallies are seen as a good opportunity for the unemployed young generation of the region.

Such rallies are held more in the backward and underdeveloped areas of Kashmir like Tangdhar, Gurez, Keran, Machil.

I never asked you about the police force in kashmir......i asked you about the army in kashmir.

"Two Indian soldiers and five separatist guerrillas were killed in a fierce gun battle on Friday in Kashmir, an army spokesman said.

It was the third such clash in the state in a week and comes amid Indian fears of an escalation in rebel violence after a period of relative calm.

Separatist militants fighting Indian rule in Kashmir step up attacks during the summer months as snow melts the region's mountain passes, allowing easier movement of militants from Pakistani territory, Indian security officials say.

"Following a tip off, troops cordoned a forest area in Rafiabad area. The hiding terrorists opened fire and in the ensuing fierce encounter five terrorists and two soldiers were killed," army spokesman Vineet Sood said."
Soldiers clash with Kashmir rebels, 7 killed - Reuters -

From the report above it looks like its the indian army doing the fighting.

 

[notsuperstitious]

BBC News - Kashmiri is first in India civil service exams

A man from Indian-administered Kashmir has come first in India's civil service examinations, the first Kashmiri to achieve such a distinction.

Newspapers in the capital Srinagar have carried the story of Shah Faisal's achievement across their front pages.

Tens of thousands of candidates across India participated in the exams of whom only 800 were successful.

Very few Kashmiris take Indian civil service exams and even fewer succeed in passing them.

That is principally because of an insurgency that rocked Jammu and Kashmir state for much of the last 20 years.

'Nothing is impossible'

Shah Faisal says that the low exam turnout has much to do with "the mistrust of ordinary Kashmiris of the Indian mainstream".



Shah Faisal's family are thrilled with his achievement
"If my success is an event, it will surely change the mindset of ordinary Kashmiris," he said.

"It'll remove their apprehensions that they will deliberately be failed. I am sure a message has gone out that if you really come up to the standards set by the union public service commission, nothing is impossible for you."

Shah Faisal is among those who have been directly affected by the violence in Kashmir.

His father, a schoolteacher, was killed by (EDIT - Pro Freedom) gunmen eight years ago.

He says the family was gripped by a sense of insecurity and had to flee their home in Kupwara district to live in Srinagar.

"Such was the level of fear that I have not visited my home for eight years," says Mr Faisal.

He says that he did not join any coaching centre to prepare for the exams. But he says he went to Delhi at the invitation of a charitable institution which provided funds to at least 20 Kashmiri candidates.

Mr Faisal will have to undergo intensive training before being appointed a civil service officer.

"But I am eagerly awaiting the day when I can serve my community," he says

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The main point relevant to this discussion is the violence perpetrated by EP rebels, specifically atrocities against civilian non-Bengalis in pursuit of a political objective, and the International Commission of Jurists (an NGO) does not, as far as I can tell, condone those killings in any manner, though it makes a broader argument that violence by rebels was justified (an argument for another thread).

Since the point about atrocities by rebels is clear, I'll move on to this bit of Indian double speak:

Indian State sponsored no crime. Indian State, however, sponsored a struggle for freedom from oppression. Any death of innocent is always regrettable, however, this is the right time to recall that Maospeak:

Nor is the Pakistani State sponsoring any crime. The Pakistani State is, however, sponsoring a struggle for freedom from oppression. Any death of innocents is always regrettable, however, this is the right time to recall that Mao speak:

'A revolution is not a dinner party, or writing an essay, or painting a picture, or doing embroidery; it cannot be so refined, so leisurely and gentle, so temperate, kind, courteous, restrained and magnanimous. A revolution is an insurrection, an act of violence by which one class overthrows another'

Again, India has no standing to be criticizing Pakistani support for the Kashmiri insurgency, or the atrocities by some insurgents, given its own actions in supporting what it calls 'terrorists' (in J&K) in East Pakistan in 1971.

 

[Prometheus]

The Pakistani State is, however, sponsoring a struggle for freedom from oppression.

yes sir ,, we know that.

However on other side..................I think than Pakistan should not say a thing about Balochistan ( only allegations but never provided a Proof by Pakistan Govt.)

on a lighter note..............I still think Pakistan and India can get along and can be a good progressive, peaceloving neighbours ( with or without kashmir solution.

India suceeded in its goal of Bangladesh creation because of political unstability and mistrust between west and East wing Of Pakistan..............and as every hostile nation do.............we did it.

On Kashmir issue, however condition is different..............majority stays in mainstream India..............about minority..............Indian economic is nowhere near collapse that it cannot hold on to its area

 

[username]

I have a question to Pakistani brothers,
Answer me logically,
Please keep aside the legitimacy of the claim of Pakistan and the quarell that whether the intruders are militants or freedom fighters and try to answer this question...

Your so called "freedom" fighters aka "terrorists" from Indian POV are trying to seize Kashmir from India since decades but with no results...

So what is the point in crossing the border and become a sitting duck... (I hope this is not a bad remark)...

Shouldn't Pakistan rethink its strategy ?

And the people who become "freedom fighters" or "terrorists" are not someone who are educated ... is this the way to use uneducated people ? Is this moral ?

I am damn sure none of the Pakistani members are going to become a so called freedom fighter or even know a so called freedom figher in their circle of educated people...

What if Pakistan develops and no body is ready to cross the border for these causes...
this kind of people can be hired only as long as they are economically, socially and educationally backward...