Kashmir | News & Discussions.

[toxic_pus]

If you do not call the massacres of innocent civilians, men, women and children, in pursuit of a political objective by East Pakistani rebels, terrorism, then please explain to me what it should be called and why the Mumbai attacks should be looked at differently.

Facts are facts - Indians cannot hide behind 'the world does not consider this terrorism'. Were the world to not consider Hitler's actions crimes, that would not change the nature of his crimes.

To refuse to accept the obvious facts of atrocities in the tens of thousands committed by EP rebels, backed by India, and hide behind absurd excuses such as 'no certificate of terrorism from the world' only shows how morally corrupt and bankrupt the mindset of some Indians has become.

It is not me who is 'calling terrorism by whatever name I please', Indians are making this distinction of 'good terrorism vs bad terrorism' by glorifying the events of 1971 and not condemning the actions of the GOI in supporting terrorism.

Apply a balanced approach, and as I said, I am open to also applying the same balanced approach.

Anybody reading your post will actually think that the Bengalis of East Pakistan woke up one fine day and decided to massacre the ‘innocent’ Pakistanis. What you are deliberately suppressing is the fact that the massacres by Bengalis, however regrettable it may be, were actually an inevitable reaction to PA’s barbarism.

Perhaps that’s why ICJ (International Court of Jurists) thought that the Bengalis of East Pakistan were ‘justified under domestic law, in using force, to resist the attempt by the self-appointed and illegal military regime to impose a different form of constitution upon the country to that approved by the majority of the people in a fair and free election’(Conclusion; Para 7).

Besides, you haven’t replied to me yet. Why is it that unclassified US documents do not speak of any violence prior to 25/26th March? Why is it that the International media didn’t report anything significant prior to 25/26th March, except for the Wireless Colony incident on 4th? Why is it that the White Paper issued by Pakistan couldn’t account for more than about 384 deaths, which also included death due to Police firing? More importantly, why was PA withdrawn to the barracks as early as 3rd March, 1971, if the situation was as grave as you want all of us to believe?

 

[Prometheus]

Did GOP ever declare Mukthi Bahini as a terrorist Organization ?

If at all those LET terrorists are able to carveout a separate state for them, then you call them freedom fighters , Until then those Orgnizations and members are to be treated as terrorists.

Was Bhagat Singh a terrorist in your esteemed view ?

dude dont bring Bhagat singh into it...............someone will surely start comparing him to so called Kashmiri freedom fighters

they dont consider him a hero............

 

[Cityboy]

World including UN knows them [let,jud,jaish etc] AS TERRORISTS. .and yes gop too. .kya fark padta he? Agar kuch log unhe freedom fighter kahe? These jehadis r in the same category of TTP AND AQ. ..

 

[foxbat]

If you do not call the massacres of innocent civilians, men, women and children, in pursuit of a political objective by East Pakistani rebels, terrorism, then please explain to me what it should be called and why the Mumbai attacks should be looked at differently.

Facts are facts - Indians cannot hide behind 'the world does not consider this terrorism'. Were the world to not consider Hitler's actions crimes, that would not change the nature of his crimes.

To refuse to accept the obvious facts of atrocities in the tens of thousands committed by EP rebels, backed by India, and hide behind absurd excuses such as 'no certificate of terrorism from the world' only shows how morally corrupt and bankrupt the mindset of some Indians has become.

It is not me who is 'calling terrorism by whatever name I please', Indians are making this distinction of 'good terrorism vs bad terrorism' by glorifying the events of 1971 and not condemning the actions of the GOI in supporting terrorism.

Apply a balanced approach, and as I said, I am open to also applying the same balanced approach.

A few discrepencies in your comparisons.. Mumbai attackers ; at least the one captured and in all probability all of them; were foreign nationals where as Mukti Bahini, even if trained by India (your contention) were your own citizens.

And by comparing the 2 you are implicitly agreeing to the position of most of the Indian members that Pakistan is persuing its political objectives in India by sponsoring attacks like 26/11

Also you are using the term facts are facts a little too liberally. Its really your interpertation of facts and not the facts as you are trying to put it..

And really I think its you who is trying to hide by putting forward distorted versions of history and events to justify an incorrect stand today. Of course world opinion matters. In a bilateral issue the 2 parties will always have opposing contentions. How come yours become the facts. There are many literatures on the event in question that contradict your definition of facts as well.

Also using terms like morally bankrupt and corrupt does not certify your version to be accurate. In my opinion, some Pakistanis, by putting forth such absurd claims, specially when Pakistani intellectuals have gone on record and apologised to Bangladesh for Pakistan's atrocities before and after the fateful March 1971, are simply trying to muddy up the water..

And I dont find it surprising. Because the trend is more or less same. You use the acts of Mukti Bahini to justify the subsequent genocide of hundreds of thousand people just like you use the disputed status of Kashmir, which really has nothing to do with insurgents attacking civilians, to justify the activities of groups like Hijbul, LeT etc in the state of J&K.


Forget world opinion, how many times has GoP demanded an apology or admission of guilt from the Bangladesh govt for committing the atrocities that you term as terrorism here??

Its interesting that you bring up Hitler as I remeber reading about the genocide inflicted by PA in East Pakistan only being second to the one inflicted by Hitler on the Jews.

If there was terrorism in 1971, and I believe there was, it was propogated again by Pakistan on the people of then East Pakistan.

The same definition can be applied to Pakistan sending insurgents into the Princely state of Kashmir in 1947 and I dont want to go into the atrocities committed by those irregulars at that time. May be the term terrorism didnt exist, but it was no different.

You are really dreaming if you think an Indian member will agree to your stand here.. And its not because of so called Moral corruption but because of the absurdity of your claim. I see Karan saying that he will try and read up on the events, and I would like to see his response to this claim which I know wont be in this thread.... This thread anyway is shot to hell by now...

Also, this balanced approach you talk of, what exactly is that?? Agreeing that Pakistan is sponsoring terrorism in India today to reply to your definition of terrorism done by India in 1971?? Or simply changing the title of this thread to a more realistic one?

btw, I like your play on the words of putting a glorifying adjective to the word insurgents while claiming the factual correctness of the title. If nothing else, it managed to move one of the members with an opposing view out of the thread

My advise Karan, dont take it too seriously. Its a forum and Mods, no matter how impartial are Pakistani nationals.. Dont be unrealistic in your expectations.. Remeber your own good views of the Mod team when you introduced me to this forum..

 

[foxbat]

Calm down with the insults please.

Sometimes, they say that a miniscule event has disproportionate outcomes.

In this thread, this was the turning point. If my Indian brothers had listened to the wise words here, we would still have a simple news reporting thread going on instead of a cyber mahabharat...

Dabong, you tried your best man... too bad it didnt have the desired result...

 

[EjazR]

A comparative interview with Omar Abdulla is an interesting as well.

 

[yashchauhan]

A great show and the host is very smart and intelligent...he knows what he is doing!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Anybody reading your post will actually think that the Bengalis of East Pakistan woke up one fine day and decided to massacre the ‘innocent’ Pakistanis. What you are deliberately suppressing is the fact that the massacres by Bengalis, however regrettable it may be, were actually an inevitable reaction to PA’s barbarism.

They didn't wake up 'one fine day', but when you start a violent rebel movement, especially one based on racial/ethnic hatred, then the chances of atrocities against the other 'race/ethnicity' increase, especially since the rebels are bound by no law. Even more ludicrous is the implication that the EP rebels were doing nothing but standing on street corners chanting and waving flags, and the GoP decide to launch a military operation against them. Operation Searchlight was launched because the rebels had resorted to violence and atrocities. And we see that is exactly what happened as documented in the HR commission report, which also explains the intial media blackout and its repercussions:

2. It is necessary that this painful chapter of the events in East Pakistan be looked at in its proper perspective. Let it not be forgotten that the initiative in resorting to violence and cruelty was taken by the militants of the Awami League, during the month of March, 1971, following General Yahya Khan's announcement of the 1st of March regarding the postponement of the session of the National Assembly scheduled for the 3rd of March 1971. It will be recalled that from the 1st of March to the 3rd of March 1971, the Awami League had taken complete control of East Pakistan, paralysing the authority of the federal government. There is reliable evidence to show that during this period the miscreants indulged in large scale massacres and rape against pro-Pakistan elements, in the towns of Dacca, Narayanganj, Chittagong, Chandraghona, Rangamati, Khulna, Dinajpur, Ghafargaoa, Kushtia, Ishurdi, Noakhali, Sylhet, Maulvi Bazaar, Rangpur, Saidpur, Jessore, Barisal, Mymensingh, Rajshahi, Pabna, Sirajgonj, Comilla, Brahman Baria, Bogra, Naugaon, Santahar, and several other smaller places.

3. Harrowing tales of these atrocities were narrated by the large number of West Pakistanis and Biharis who were able to escape from these places and reach the safety of West Pakistan. For days on end, all through the troubled month of March 1971, swarms of terrorised non-Bengalis lay at the Army-controlled Dacca airport awaiting their turn to be taken to the safety of West Pakistan. Families of West Pakistani officers and other ranks serving with East Bengal units were subjected to inhuman treatment, and a large number of West Pakistani officers were butchered by the erstwhile Bengali colleagues.

4. These atrocities were completely blacked out at the time by the Government of Pakistan for fear of retaliation by the Bengalis living in West Pakistan. The Federal Government did issue a White Paper in this behalf in August 1971, but unfortunately it did not create much impact for the reason that it was highly belated, and adequate publicity was not given to it in the national and international press.

5. However, recently, a renowned journalist of high-standing, Mr. Qutubuddin Aziz, has taken pains to marshal the evidence in a publication called "Blood and Tears." The book contains the harrowing tales of inhuman crimes committed on the helpless Biharis, West Pakistanis and patriotic Bengalis living in East Pakistan during that period. According to various estimates mentioned by Mr. Qutubuddin Aziz, between 100,000 and 500,000 persons were slaughtered during this period by the Awami League militants.

6. As far as we can judge, Mr Qutubuddin Aziz has made use of authentic personal accounts furnished by the repatriates whose families, have actually suffered at the hands of the Awami League militants. He has also extensively referred to the contemporary accounts of foreign correspondents then stationed in East Pakistan. The plight of the non-Bengali elements still living in Bangladesh and the insistence of that Government on their large-scale repatriation to Pakistan, are factors which appear to confirm the correctness of the allegations made against the Awami League in this behalf.

Perhaps that’s why ICJ (International Court of Jurists) thought that the Bengalis of East Pakistan were ‘justified under domestic law, in using force, to resist the attempt by the self-appointed and illegal military regime to impose a different form of constitution upon the country to that approved by the majority of the people in a fair and free election’(Conclusion; Para 7).

Now are you referring to the International Court of Justice or the International Commission of Jurists, because they are two distinct entities, the latter just an NGO with a few dozen jurists from various nations. That said, their justification for rebel violence against the State is an interesting one, and I would be interested in reading the entire thing if you could start a new thread on it. However, unless the ICJ is justifying the deliberate and coldblooded massacre of tens of thousands of innocent West Pakistanis by East Pakistani rebels, the excerpt you posted is irrelevant to my point of Indians condemning their nation's policies and support for terrorism in 1971.

Besides, you haven’t replied to me yet. Why is it that unclassified US documents do not speak of any violence prior to 25/26th March? Why is it that the International media didn’t report anything significant prior to 25/26th March, except for the Wireless Colony incident on 4th? Why is it that the White Paper issued by Pakistan couldn’t account for more than about 384 deaths, which also included death due to Police firing? More importantly, why was PA withdrawn to the barracks as early as 3rd March, 1971, if the situation was as grave as you want all of us to believe?

The excerpt from the HR commission covers this and explains why - you are just clutching at straws now to try and hide the shame of atrocities committed by Bengalis - I know, quite a hit to your Bengali sense of superiority over 'West' Pakistanis.

There is nothing wrong with recognizing the crimes the Indian State sponsored in 1971, and an condemning them illustrates that Indians are willing to bring a balanced approach to the issues of insurgency, especially with respect to Indian arguments on the Kashmir insurgency. The more you try to find excuses to justify terrorism, the less legitimacy your claims have anywhere else.

 

[karan.1970]

Three terrorists killed in Kashmir encounter: Rediff.com India News

Three militants and a soldier were killed and another trooper wounded in a daylong encounter in the Sozipora village near Handwara in north Kashmir's [ Images ] Kupwara district.
A senior police officer said troops of counter insurgency Rashtriya Rifles (RR) and police surrounded a house in the Sozipora village on Tuesday morning, following information about the presence of a group of heavily armed militants inside it.

"As the hiding militants were challenged to surrender they opened fire triggering an encounter at the end of which three militants were killed," the officer said.

"A rifleman of the Rashtriya Rifles was killed and another critically wounded in the encounter." He said arms and ammunition were also recovered from the encounter site. "Security forces are still busy searching the area," he added.

 

[karan.1970]

lets keep the topic clean without name calling. Its anyway going to get merged with the other thread. So better than abusing these so called humans, lets just enjoy the news of their demise. Though the news has a dark lining of one of our jawans also getting killed..

These days its more and more of RR and J&K police hitting these guys.. With main Army force taking a back seat.. Looks like a good strategy and seems to be working.

Knock on wood, The ratio of kills seems to be gettting heavily tilted in India's favor..Inshah Allah, the trend will continue and will become stronger

 

[Areesh]

Three terrorists killed in Kashmir encounter: Rediff.com India News

Three militants and a soldier were killed and another trooper wounded in a daylong encounter in the Sozipora village near Handwara in north Kashmir's [ Images ] Kupwara district.
A senior police officer said troops of counter insurgency Rashtriya Rifles (RR) and police surrounded a house in the Sozipora village on Tuesday morning, following information about the presence of a group of heavily armed militants inside it.

"As the hiding militants were challenged to surrender they opened fire triggering an encounter at the end of which three militants were killed," the officer said.

"A rifleman of the Rashtriya Rifles was killed and another critically wounded in the encounter." He said arms and ammunition were also recovered from the encounter site. "Security forces are still busy searching the area," he added.

may the freedom fighters rest in peace.

 

[JAI BHAVANI]

may the freedom fighters rest in peace.

Yes, indeed they are resting in pieces.

 

[karan.1970]

may the freedom fighters rest in peace.

and may they have a lot of company of their fellow militants, as they rest in peace

 

[Areesh]

and may they have a lot of company of their fellow militants, as they rest in peace

Don't know about these so called militants but there is a lot of rush on the other side. Looks like they are in pieces.

 

[EjazR]

Kashmir reaches out to children of slain militants

As a Jammu and Kashmir minister says, children are children, be they of militants or of terror victims. That is why the state is reaching out to the young sons and daughters of slain insurgents with as many as 1,441 having received financial assistance in 2009-2010 alone.


"Children are children and the aged are infirm and helpless. Why should they suffer for no fault of theirs?" asked state Social Welfare Minister Sakina Itoo.

The rehabilitation council of the social welfare department, which offers help to militancy victims, is providing monthly financial assistance to the children of slain militants and their aged parents as part of a goodwill gesture to knit them into the mainstream, she said.
The rehabilitation council gives Rs.750 per month to such children.

"We are providing such assistance to the children of militancy victims; so why not include the children of killed militants also in the scheme," Itoo told IANS.
While 1,441 children of militants have benefited, over 200 aged parents of slain terrorists were also covered under the scheme.

"We have spent around Rs.13 million on these schemes," the minister said.
"The widows of militants are not included in this scheme, though we are giving assistance to the widows of militancy victims. But I personally feel that the widows of militants should also be given some help for sustenance," Itoo said.
And she sees logic behind her suggestion.

"The majority of girls are forcibly married to militants. So why should they suffer for circumstances for which they were not responsible?"
Shakeela Begum, the widow of a militant, doesn't have enough words to express her gratitude for the financial help she has received for her seven-year-old daughter Hamza Kauser.

"At least I can make her study now and be sure of her secure future," said Begum, who is in her late 20s.

According to rough estimates of the social welfare department, insurgency has left about 10,000 widows, including 2,500 wives of militants, and about 30,000 orphans in the state.

Itoo said the figure could be even more and she was in favour of conducting a fresh survey.

"I feel the number is much higher as we have not got any study or survey done. Now I am planning to get a survey done on this based on the FIRs (first information reports) lodged with the police.

"We want to reach out to the victims of violence and tyranny," Itoo told IANS.
More than 40,000 people have died during the insurgency that started in 1989.
The government has spent Rs.37 million on monthly financial assistance to the widows of militancy victims in 2009-2010.

The minister said besides financial aid, women widowed due to terrorism "can come forward and get loans from the Women Development Corporation for various enterprises for which they can avail themselves of subsidies as well".

Apart from this, Rs.4.8 million has been spent on the Rs.750-800 monthly assistance to kids aged 6-18 years who were disabled in militancy-related violence.
"We would be helping the maximum possible victims of militancy so they do not feel isolated and left out," Itoo said.