Kashmir | News & Discussions.

[Rajput Warrior]

DEATH TO THE MURDERERS!

 

[Patrician]

And as I have said countless times, what will a 'diplomatic offensive' achieve?

Don't the OIC have TV's or read the press reports? How loudly is the P5 speaking out? How loudly have the EU spoken out in the past 2 months? Nothing, zilch.

India whether we like it or not has the clout to tell those nations 'keep your nose out, this is an internal matter, messy as it is, it's internal'. And those nations are obliging.

So let's say we go on a diplomatic offensive. Do you honestly feel we'll get cries of condemnation from Washington and Brussels? No we won't. What we will get are toned down criticism such as 'we would urge for all sides to demonstrate maximum restraint and avoid any injury or loss to civlian life' etc etc. What do we do then, everyone in the FO give each other high-fives? Pop the champagne corks? Does that stop the suffering of the Kashmiri's? Will India take heed? Nope.

The solution lies in India to stop dithering, and to do something. But as the AFP report touches on, there is 'paralysis'in New Delhi. Whatever it proposes is shot down by the separatists and is seen as insufficient. So the cycle of violence is here to stay for the foreseeable future - barring any drastic change in tune from the GoI.

Quite a sensible post for which I must commend and thank you.

I do not, though, agree with the bolded part. GoI is trying its best. The problem is that India is a democracy and with something as complex aqs Kashmir, GoI has listen to every shade of opinion. Let me give you an idea.

1. Some people demand completely abolishing the article 370 which grants Kashmir as a special status under the indian constitution. Abolishing article 370 will make kashmir just like any other state of India allowing other Indians to buy land, invest in buisnesses and other such activities as are allowed to every citizen of India in any state of India. Their point is that by doing so, Kashmir will come into the mainstream. Money will start pouring in. Business opporunities for kashmiris will be created and resulting development will solve the issue slowly and steadily.

2. Some people demand that Kashmir be granted all the autonomy that ir was promised at the time it acceded to India. Abolishing AFSPA etc. and demilitarisation are all a prt of this option. This actually calls the GoI to give complete autonomy to J&K exceot on the three issues of Defence, Foreign Policy and Communication which will subsequesntly be retained by the GoI.

3. There is one view of Ladakh, Jammu and other districts f J&K which want to remain India and want to have nothing to do with this problem.

4. There is one view of Kashmiri Pandits who belong to kashmir but again want to remain firmly with India.

5. There is one view of armed/security forces who see all this with their own distinct viewpoint keeping in mind the overall security and integrity of the nation.

So you see there and so many different viewpoints and with India being a democracy, GoI cannot ingonre any party and must listen to all shades of views. This whole process takes time. It's very tedious job to reach a consensus within India itself.

 

[DGMO]

Why not? Any specific reasons/concerns?

Because:

1) This isn't 1947

2) A plebiscite takes into consideration the entire region of Kashmir - and there are regions (Leh, Ladakh, Jammu etc) that have no real desire to be with Pakistan

3) China controls a part of that original region - doubtful whether they'd relinquish that control. In fact, doubtful is being kind to them.

4) The main area of dispute revolves around the Valley - so the need for a plebiscite is made redundant

5) Those in the Valley would perhaps like an option that isn't in the wording of such a plebiscite - namely independence

6) There is no real effort, interest or push from the international community to have this go ahead - always crucial for resolving international disputes (Northern Ireland, Kosovo, Palestine etc)

7) And oh yeah, India would never allow it (always makes these things a bit harder)​

That's 7 reasons that I've rattled off from the top of my head, I'm sure there are more, but you get the picture.

P.S. There's so many topics to touch on within Kashmir, I think it makes sense to open different threads. One sticky, and everything gets lost and no true perspective or discussion can be had on that topic.

 

[deckingraj]

Easy said than done really. The same cops who are being hailed for killing of protesting Kashmiri civilians, will be mauled and dubbed 'killers in uniform' if they shot at a violent or rioting protest in an indian city. All hue and cry will be raised by the indian media and i am sure many heads will role.

Sir if the intent is India bashing then that's fine...If really interested in knowing about this side of the border then let me tell you, that this is a wrong perception that you are carrying....Once a curfew is laid down all those who break them are dealt with Iron Hand....We have scene many shoot at sight orders in different parts of India on various occasions...

I don't believe in semantics but this riot is also taking place in an India city...if you are under the impression that Indians don't care about their fellow indians in J&K then i would say watch this program...

Kashmir: Paradise lost?

Mind it openly airing views of people who are against the state is not an ordinary thing...You will get another inclination from the the below given shows(from the same channel)

We The People: Govt vs Army on Armed Forces Act?

Building trust in Kashmir

The debates are going on...Media is playing its role and things will change for good....

 

[DGMO]

Quite a sensible post for which I must commend and thank you.

I do not, though, agree with the bolded part. GoI is trying its best. The problem is that India is a democracy and with something as complex aqs Kashmir, GoI has listen to every shade of opinion. Let me give you an idea.

1. Some people demand completely abolishing the article 370 which grants Kashmir as a special status under the indian constitution. Abolishing article 370 will make kashmir just like any other state of India allowing other Indians to buy land, invest in buisnesses and other such activities as are allowed to every citizen of India in any state of India. Their point is that by doing so, Kashmir will come into the mainstream. Money will start pouring in. Business opporunities for kashmiris will be created and resulting development will solve the issue slowly and steadily.

2. Some people demand that Kashmir be granted all the autonomy that ir was promised at the time it acceded to India. Abolishing AFSPA etc. and demilitarisation are all a prt of this option. This actually calls the GoI to give complete autonomy to J&K exceot on the three issues of Defence, Foreign Policy and Communication which will subsequesntly be retained by the GoI.

3. There is one view of Ladakh, Jammu and other districts f J&K which want to remain India and want to have nothing to do with this problem.

4. There is one view of Kashmiri Pandits who belong to kashmir but again want to remain firmly with India.

5. There is one view of armed/security forces who see all this with their own distinct viewpoint keeping in mind the overall security and integrity of the nation.

So you see there and so many different viewpoints and with India being a democracy, GoI cannot ingonre any party and must listen to all shades of views. This whole process takes time. It's very tedious job to reach a consensus within India itself.

Thanks Patrician, and I agree with what you say. I have touched on a few posts back that India finds itself in a bind like no other. There is also the tug and pull from the Security Forces as they believe relinquishing AFSPA could be a mistake.

What I'm critical of is that there doesn't seem to be that 'grab this issue by the scruff of the neck' approach, and we're more than 2 months into it. A lot of back and forth between ND and Srinagar, but no real tangible results. In the meantime, death and mayhem continues.

Being MMS right now is a job not many would want. I understand and appreciate the differing viewpoints, the NC wants something, Congress can only give so much, BJP wants to give away nothing, and Geelani and co want everything. And let's not forget the Army who feel as if they're being kicked around like a political football. So I'm fully aware of the domestic and democratic compulsions you have.

Hopefully my fellow Pakistani members can grasp that, and realise that it's not so black and white. However, I think we're all in agreement that the suffering of Kashmiri's cannot continue.

We'll just have to see what step GoI take to make that breakthrough.

 

[Patrician]

Thanks Patrician, and I agree with what you say. I have touched on a few posts back that India finds itself in a bind like no other. There is also the tug and pull from the Security Forces as they believe relinquishing AFSPA could be a mistake.

What I'm critical of is that there doesn't seem to be that 'grab this issue by the scruff of the neck' approach, and we're more than 2 months into it. A lot of back and forth between ND and Srinagar, but no real tangible results. In the meantime, death and mayhem continues.

Being MMS right now is a job not many would want. I understand and appreciate the differing viewpoints, the NC wants something, Congress can only give so much, BJP wants to give away nothing, and Geelani and co want everything. And let's not forget the Army who feel as if they're being kicked around like a political football. So I'm fully aware of the domestic and democratic compulsions you have.

Hopefully my fellow Pakistani members can grasp that, and realise that it's not so black and white. However, I think we're all in agreement that the suffering of Kashmiri's cannot continue.

We'll just have to see what step GoI take to make that breakthrough.

Thank you. Thank you very much for being so sensible. There are not many on who are.

Based on media reports, I can tell you that there is some heavy brainstorming going on inside the GoI right now. We will see some action (like selectively remiving AFSPA, of which I'm personally in favor) very soon, very soon indeed.

 

[Valiant_Soul]

However, I think we're all in agreement that the suffering of Kashmiri's cannot continue.

Yes, we do. And that is why the government continuously urge them not to indulge in violent protests and take law into their hands, but instead come to the table to talk. The ball has always been in their court.

 

[alibaz]

NEW DELHI: About two thirds of residents in Indian-administered Kashmir want independence for their region, with less than one in ten seeking a merger with Pakistan, a survey showed Sunday.

The Kashmir region is administered separately by India and Pakistan, with the Indian part subject to an insurgency and violent separatist movement for the last 20 years that has claimed an estimated 47,000 lives.

The poll, conducted for the Sunday Hindustan Times newspaper, showed that 66 per cent of respondents in the Kashmir valley wanted “complete freedom to entire Jammu and Kashmir as a new country”.

Jammu and Kashmir includes the violence-wracked Muslim-majority Kashmir valley, the Hindu-majority region of Jammu and the mostly Buddhist Ladakh area.

Only six per cent in Kashmir wanted a “complete merger of the entire Jammu and Kashmir in Pakistan.”

The desire for independence for the state is not shared in the Jammu and Ladakh parts however, where 76 per cent and 70 per cent wanted a “complete merger” of the state into India.

Kashmir has a special status under the Indian constitution and was initially autonomous after partition of the subcontinent in 1947, though much of its autonomy has slowly been eroded.

Respondents were also asked who was to blame for a current wave of unrest in the Kashmir area where young stone-throwers have clashed with security forces for the last three months.

Seventy protesters and bystanders — some children — have been killed, mostly by security forces who have fired on demonstrations.

In Kashmir, 56 per cent blamed India for the unrest, while 44 per cent of those asked in the “rest of India” thought Pakistan was responsible for stirring up trouble.

Majorities in all areas concurred that Indian forces should not use bullets against protesters, with 96 per cent saying it was wrong in Kashmir, and 85 per cent in the rest of India.

Two thirds thought it was wrong in Jammu, while 31 per cent said it was acceptable.

The poll was conducted by Team CVoter and canvassed 2,369 people.

On Sunday, Indian security forces enforced a strict curfew in much of Kashmir, a day after prayers marking the end of the Muslim fasting month of Ramazan erupted into protests.

Thousands, including women and children, marched through the city and held demonstrations at its historic business centre.

Protesters hoisted green Islamic and Pakistani flags atop a clock tower and later police blamed them for setting fire to a government building that housed the offices of the force's crime branch and power development department.

Separatists, who led Saturday's protests, blamed “anti-movement elements” for setting fire to the building and called for a probe into the arson.

Police said they had imposed a curfew on Sunday to prevent further violence.

The Muslim-majority Kashmir region has been fought over by India and Pakistan since the partition of British-ruled India in 1947, with the region now cut in two along a UN-monitored line of control.

DAWN.COM | World | Two thirds in Kashmir want independence: poll

 

[Valiant_Soul]

However, I think we're all in agreement that the suffering of Kashmiri's cannot continue.

Yes, we do. And that is why the government continuously urge them not to indulge in violent protests and take law into their hands, but instead come to the table to talk. The ball has always been in their court.

 

[DGMO]

Agreed. But does that mean GOP should contend itself by doing nothing? While i agree to the above mentioned point, there is always a tipping point. Among other things, one thing that recent protests in Kashmir hope to achieve is international recognition. And it is coming. Slowly but it is. If you see the recent coverage in international media, the focus is shifting away from Pakistani interference and is moving more towards what India is doing in Kashmir. Pakistan can build on this. And even if it achieves nothing at the end, at least we tried. Most of all, it will show to the Kashmiris that we care if no one else does.

But is it doing nothing? And what would you perceive as 'more' than it is? Then as I keep coming back to, what is the end game?

You're being naive, and I don't mean that in a rude way brother. International recognition comes to light when interests are affected. The West cares about Pakistan in the context of Afghanistan. The linkage that was made when Obama was running for president is fully known:

We have to solve Kashmir to get the Pak forces to concentrate on Afghanistan​

So that's the only time I can think of when the international community have thought about us and Kashmir in the same closed bracket. But then this was shot down by India, and totally forgotten when Obama was elected and ever since.

So Kashmir (at present), doesn't tug the heartstrings of the West. In fact, not even the Arab and wider muslim world.

The Kashmiri's know we care, that is never in dispute, but our influence on what we can achieve is limited (if India doesn't involve us). That's reality, and we need to accept it.

 

[deckingraj]

Thanks Patrician, and I agree with what you say. I have touched on a few posts back that India finds itself in a bind like no other. There is also the tug and pull from the Security Forces as they believe relinquishing AFSPA could be a mistake.

What I'm critical of is that there doesn't seem to be that 'grab this issue by the scruff of the neck' approach, and we're more than 2 months into it. A lot of back and forth between ND and Srinagar, but no real tangible results. In the meantime, death and mayhem continues.

Being MMS right now is a job not many would want. I understand and appreciate the differing viewpoints, the NC wants something, Congress can only give so much, BJP wants to give away nothing, and Geelani and co want everything. And let's not forget the Army who feel as if they're being kicked around like a political football. So I'm fully aware of the domestic and democratic compulsions you have.

Hopefully my fellow Pakistani members can grasp that, and realise that it's not so black and white. However, I think we're all in agreement that the suffering of Kashmiri's cannot continue.

We'll just have to see what step GoI take to make that breakthrough.

You will find many people criticizing the approach of GOI...The issue is we are not clear about what to do..there is lot of uncertainty going on and any lull is Kashmir is mistaken to be stabilization...and then we are left confused and surprised....The need of the hour is development in Kashmir and that's where catch 22 situation arise...How to get development reach Kashmir in all this turmoil....Regarding political solution then it is a distant dream as of now...let's hope for the best....

 

[GUNNER]

Sir if the intent is India bashing then that's fine...

No Sir, it is not. The intent was to highlight the duplicity of dealing with two different scenarios by some in the indian media.

If really interested in knowing about this side of the border then let me tell you, that this is a wrong perception that you are carrying....Once a curfew is laid down all those who break them are dealt with Iron Hand....We have scene many shoot at sight orders in different parts of India on various occasions...

Agreed on the curfew part. But several killings took place while there wasn't a curfew.

if you are under the impression that Indians don't care about their fellow indians in J&K then i would say watch this program......

No sir, i do not hold that impression. The acts of a few do not justify generalization. I know there are several divergent views on Kashmir in India. Some soft, most hawkish. I see lot of Indian media so kindly do not take me for a naive man. Should i tell you what is running on NDTV or CNN-IBN or TIMES NOW or Headlines Today right now?

Mind it openly airing views of people who are against the state is not an ordinary thing...You will get another inclination from the the below given shows(from the same channel)

I agree again on the bolded part. But herein lies the problem. Not just in India but also in Pakistan. Once the state builds an image with the help of some in the media and it sets in with the public, then ultimately the state becomes hostage to it and cannot wriggle away. Even when it tries to. That's what the two states have ended up doing as far as Kashmir is concerned. Any voice that challenges the status quo is snubbed.

The debates are going on...Media is playing its role and things will change for good....

Amen.

 

[deckingraj]

Yes, we do. And that is why the government continuously urge them not to indulge in violent protests and take law into their hands, but instead come to the table to talk. The ball has always been in their court.

This is very simplistic view...It is easy saying balls in their court but we cannot deny the mistakes of GOI viz-a-viz Kashmir...I do not want to derail the thread but if you want to get a complete picture perhaps start from GOI role in rigged elections of late 80's.....

 

[Patrician]

NEW DELHI: About two thirds of residents in Indian-administered Kashmir want independence for their region, with less than one in ten seeking a merger with Pakistan, a survey showed Sunday.

The Kashmir region is administered separately by India and Pakistan, with the Indian part subject to an insurgency and violent separatist movement for the last 20 years that has claimed an estimated 47,000 lives.

The poll, conducted for the Sunday Hindustan Times newspaper, showed that 66 per cent of respondents in the Kashmir valley wanted “complete freedom to entire Jammu and Kashmir as a new country”.

Jammu and Kashmir includes the violence-wracked Muslim-majority Kashmir valley, the Hindu-majority region of Jammu and the mostly Buddhist Ladakh area.

Only six per cent in Kashmir wanted a “complete merger of the entire Jammu and Kashmir in Pakistan.”

The desire for independence for the state is not shared in the Jammu and Ladakh parts however, where 76 per cent and 70 per cent wanted a “complete merger” of the state into India.

Kashmir has a special status under the Indian constitution and was initially autonomous after partition of the subcontinent in 1947, though much of its autonomy has slowly been eroded.

Respondents were also asked who was to blame for a current wave of unrest in the Kashmir area where young stone-throwers have clashed with security forces for the last three months.

Seventy protesters and bystanders — some children — have been killed, mostly by security forces who have fired on demonstrations.

In Kashmir, 56 per cent blamed India for the unrest, while 44 per cent of those asked in the “rest of India” thought Pakistan was responsible for stirring up trouble.

Majorities in all areas concurred that Indian forces should not use bullets against protesters, with 96 per cent saying it was wrong in Kashmir, and 85 per cent in the rest of India.

Two thirds thought it was wrong in Jammu, while 31 per cent said it was acceptable.

The poll was conducted by Team CVoter and canvassed 2,369 people.

On Sunday, Indian security forces enforced a strict curfew in much of Kashmir, a day after prayers marking the end of the Muslim fasting month of Ramazan erupted into protests.

Thousands, including women and children, marched through the city and held demonstrations at its historic business centre.

Protesters hoisted green Islamic and Pakistani flags atop a clock tower and later police blamed them for setting fire to a government building that housed the offices of the force's crime branch and power development department.

Separatists, who led Saturday's protests, blamed “anti-movement elements” for setting fire to the building and called for a probe into the arson.

Police said they had imposed a curfew on Sunday to prevent further violence.

The Muslim-majority Kashmir region has been fought over by India and Pakistan since the partition of British-ruled India in 1947, with the region now cut in two along a UN-monitored line of control.

DAWN.COM | World | Two thirds in Kashmir want independence: poll

This is what is called misinterpretation of facts. Let me post that survey for you which I actually posted in another thread:

A few important points to note,

1. Kashmiris' are themselves divided about what they want.
2. 68% in the valley say that " India should give kashmir control over everything except defence, foreign affairs and communication. This clearly means that those 68% can compromise with India retaining overall control. Yet again, 66% in the valley say "Complete freedom for entire J&K as a seperate country".

Two thing becomes very clear,

1. Valley and only valley wants independence but even they could be satisfied with things like greater autonomy with India giving up control for everything except defence, foreign affairs and communication. GoI is game for that.
2. Nobody wants to join Pakistan

Regards

Peace

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

OMG Lighting up Kashmir would give some Room to Moists and other such groups Not to Mention the Indians hosting common wealth games and ICC Cricket world cup ... India should Take Kashmir Seriously and push for its peaceful resolution as the Kashmiris Demand or else if Kashmir Struggle turned into an Armed Struggle Things could go mighty ugly for the ever growing and shining Asian Economic Giant India....!!!!