Kashmir | News & Discussions.

[Vinod2070]

1) Northern Areas are not part of Kashmir. They are Pakistani areas

2) Azad Kashmir is part of Kashmir and is independent of Pakistan, so Pakistan doesn't really control any part of Kashmir.

3) The water supply to the Indus is only partly through Kashmir. The Kabul River is the source of some of the Indus as it enters Pakistan, as is the Swat River and Gilgit. Even if for some reason water supplies were turned off from Kashmir (and the Tibetans or Chinese could simply divert the supply away from Kashmir if they wanted to, as a favour to Pakistan), there'd be enough of a water supply from the other river flowing through the Indus Valley.

The trust that Pakistanis seem to have in China that it would do anything for them is so touching. I am not really sure it is based on any kind of facts. Of course the verbiage is there but what is the real substance? Will China get into war with India (or even US?) for Pakistan's sake? Is that what is believed in Pakistan?

I have heard comments from a highly respected Chinese poster on WAB (AM/NEO will know that I am talking about OOE) that China will fight India to the last Pakistani. I am just curious how this is looked at by the Pakistanis.

 

[roadrunner]

The trust that Pakistanis seem to have in China that it would do anything for them is so touching. I am not really sure it is based on any kind of facts. Of course the verbiage is there but what is the real substance? Will China get into war with India (or even US?) for Pakistan's sake? Is that what is believed in Pakistan?

I have heard comments from a highly respected Chinese poster on WAB (AM/NEO will know that I am talking about OOE) that China will fight India to the last Pakistani. I am just curious how this is looked at by the Pakistanis.

Well, why not? If horticultual genocide can be committed by India or Kashir in Pakistan (and it only would affect Punjab to an extent with a couple of rivers - the Indus would be unaffected to a degree), why would such a genocide not be acceptable for India? It would make such an act more possible, and the Ganges could be dried up at will.

 

[Vinod2070]

Well, why not? If horticultual genocide can be committed by India or Kashir in Pakistan (and it only would affect Punjab to an extent with a couple of rivers - the Indus would be unaffected to a degree), why would such a genocide not be acceptable for India? It would make such an act more possible, and the Ganges could be dried up at will.

Of course, we understand that it is a hypothetical discussion. I don't believe anyone in India wants to do any such thing.

The question here is not what is technically or morally possible. The question is: Do Pakistanis believe that China will take such a step for them if that means getting into a war with India (or even USA)?

What is the basis of such a belief? Are you absolutely convinced that you are not being used as a tool to contain India? Or may be you are a perfectly willing tool?

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

Of course, we understand that it is a hypothetical discussion. I don't believe anyone in India wants to do any such thing.

The question here is not what is technically or morally possible. The question is: Do Pakistanis believe that China will take such a step for them if that means getting into a war with India (or even USA)?

What is the basis of such a belief? Are you absolutely convinced that you are not being used as a tool to contain India? Or may be you are a perfectly willing tool?

Vinod I think this has been argued to death in another thread dedicated for water issues between India and Pakistan.

 

[waz]

AJK is not Pakistani territory to begin with.

Pakistan should let it go for the sake of settling the Kashmir issue with India.

Bro You do realise that after Azad Kashmir lies the federal capital and the strategic heartland? Its mountainous terrain and warlike people have always acted as natural barrier to Indian incursions. Giving the region away will cut Pakistan’s strategic depth massively, something they can ill afford to do as they already are at a disadvantage against India in this regard. Also “letting go” off the region will that mean the dismantling of Mangla dam what about the Neelum-Jhelum hydroelectric dam that is being built in Azad Kashmir? Pakistan will not let go of this land and has never had any intention to and nor do the people want to be apart from it as they very much consider themselves part of the fatherland.

Pakistan’s federal government also forbids independence parties from standing in the AJK elections which is clear sign that Pakistan wants the region to remain with it now and the future.

That is debatable.

The Northern Areas were forcibly occupied. The people living there are more or less Pashtun than Kashmiri. Historical Kashmir and Northern Areas never had anything common.

Anyway, we'll put that case up with the Kashmiris. Let them decide.

They are not Pakhtun at all and are a completely different people of Dardic origin who speak khowar, shina and balti. There has been tension between Pakhtun settlers in and the Northern people in the past.

 

[Vinod2070]

Vinod I think this has been argued to death in another thread dedicated for water issues between India and Pakistan.

Thx. May me I have not seen that thread.

Anyway I am not discussing the water issue here. I wanted to get an understanding of how and why Pakistanis trust that China will put it's security or growth at risk for them.

 

[waz]

Why do you think so.

The bangladesis supported the Indian army to fight against their own mother country to get the so called freedom.

But did the kashmiri's fight for us during 1965 or 1971. They were just mute spectators when our brave soldiers sacrificed their lives because they thought they are saving kashmiris. This is one more reason why we should stop bothering about the Kashmiris. Let them decide their own fate, whether good or bad.

Are you talking about the people in the valley etc [occupied Kahsmir] or the people of Azad Kashmir? The men of Azad Kashmir and their exploits in battle are legendry......Where do you think the Azad Kashmir regiment came from? You should read about their valour in 65 and 71.


In the news recently you might have heard the story of this man from AZAD KASHMIR





Siphai Maqbool Hussain’ premieres at Army Auditorium

* Play narrates true story of Pakistani soldier taken hostage in 1965 War
* Hussain was incarcerated in Indian jail for 40 years, subjected to torture by his captors

By Sajjad Malik

RAWALPINDI: ‘Siphai Maqbool Hussain’, a play that narrates the true story of a Pakistani soldier, Maqbool Hussain, premiered on Tuesday at the Army Auditorium.

The premiere of the play was attended by a large number of people from all walks of life. Chief of Army Staff (COAS) General Ashfaq Kayani, the chief guest of the event, applauded Hussain’s story for its portrayal of his valour.

Co-produced by the Inter-Services Public Relations and Interflow Communications Limited, ‘Siphai Maqbool Hussain’ touched the hearts of the spectators, as the play delineated the suffering and inhumane treatment of Hussain and the cruelty of his captors, who brutally cut his tongue.

40 years: Hussain, who was injured and taken prisoner by the Indian Army in the 1965 war, spent 40 years in Indian jails. He was released as a civilian prisoner in 2005. During his imprisonment, Hussain was subjected to terrible human rights abuses.

Hailing from Azad Kashmir, and engaged to Naseeran before joining army, Hussain’s aging mother kept waiting for his return. When she died, Hussain’s mother was buried at the entrance of the village at her request, so that she could ‘meet’ her son when he returned.

Haider Imam Rizvi directed the play, while the cast included Raja Haider, Batin Farooqi, Riaz Mastana, Hassan Niazi, Reeja and Ghazala Butt. Shafqat Amanat Ali Khan sung the play’s theme song. ‘Siphai Maqbool Hussain’ will also be telecast on Pakistan Television as a weekly serial.

As the story unfolds, Hussain, bearing army No 335139, is shown being hit by enemy fire on the Line of Control at the start of the 1965 war. Subsequently, he is taken prisoner by the Indian army, who deny him Prisoner of War status. Trained in the traditions of the Pakistan Army, Hussain faces all the suffering and refuses to share any information about his country with his captors — so much so that when they cut out his tongue, he writes ‘Pakistan Zindabad’ (long live Pakistan) in his own blood. Hussain also becomes mentally ill during his four decades of incarceration.


When the real Hussain was brought on stage at the end of the performance, he had a blank look on his face and was unable to recognise the army chief, who went on stage and shook hands with him.


Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


While they are men like him around Pakistan will never die.

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

Thx. May me I have not seen that thread.

Sure no problem Vinod here's the link. The debate was regarding water resource and also includes arguments on the length Chinese hall go.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate.../10584-pakistan-survival-without-kashmir.html

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

Are you talking about the people in the valley etc [occupied Kahsmir] or the people of Azad Kashmir?

I think he is referrinng to people on the Indian side of Kashmir. Operation Grnd slam and Gibraltars primary players were supposed to Kashmiris on Indian side, it was assumed that they would rise as they did during 1947 , however it never materialized.

 

[roadrunner]

They are not Pakhtun at all and are a completely different people of Dardic origin who speak khowar, shina and balti. There has been tension between Pakhtun settlers in and the Northern people in the past.

Waz or AAquil, I'm not sure of the ethnic composition, but surely it's irrelevant. Should the Dardic lands of Northern Afghanistan be part of Kashmir because they are Dards (a very broad term, perhaps without meaning). Or should Eastern and Southern Afghanistan be part of NWFP because of racial/cultural similarities?

What's important are treaties, history etc. Whether the racial/cultural makeup of lands is "Iranic" or "Dardic" doesn't matter one bit. From what I know of the Northern Areas situation, the Dogra Armies had invaded and forced the annexation of the Northern Areas as part of Kashmir princely state. Prior to this time, I don't think there any evidence of the Northern Areas as being part of Kashmir.

the literature suggests, Kashmiris are just one of a number of ethnic groups living in the area - Baltis, Shains, Yashkuns, Moghals, Kashmiries, Pathans, Ladakhis and Turks speaking the dialects of Balti, Brushaski, Khawer, Wakhi, Turki, Tibeti, Pushto, Urdu and Persian.

 

[roadrunner]

Of course, we understand that it is a hypothetical discussion. I don't believe anyone in India wants to do any such thing.

The question here is not what is technically or morally possible. The question is: Do Pakistanis believe that China will take such a step for them if that means getting into a war with India (or even USA)?

What is the basis of such a belief? Are you absolutely convinced that you are not being used as a tool to contain India? Or may be you are a perfectly willing tool?

India would not get into a war with China..it learnt that in 1962 not to do so.. Even if China somehow turned off the tap to the rivers.

 

[Vinod2070]

India would not get into a war with China..it learnt that in 1962 not to do so.. Even if China somehow turned off the tap to the rivers.

You presume too much.

India will not start it of course but will give back as good as it gets.

1962 was a different story and the Chinese know that even if you don't. They have had many recent experiences which tell them that it is not the same unprepared/credulous India they are dealing with now.

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

India would not get into a war with China..it learnt that in 1962 not to do so..

India shall never wage an offensive war with China nor will China wage one, give the terrain which shall offer maximum advantage to the defender.

Even if China somehow turned off the tap to the rivers.

If China turns off the tap India shall not go for war as most of the water flowing from China ends up in Pakistan ...

 

[ak56]

Are you talking about the people in the valley etc [occupied Kahsmir] or the people of Azad Kashmir? The men of Azad Kashmir and their exploits in battle are legendry......Where do you think the Azad Kashmir regiment came from? You should read about their valour in 65 and 71.


In the news recently you might have heard the story of this man from AZAD KASHMIR





Siphai Maqbool Hussain’ premieres at Army Auditorium

* Play narrates true story of Pakistani soldier taken hostage in 1965 War
* Hussain was incarcerated in Indian jail for 40 years, subjected to torture by his captors

By Sajjad Malik

RAWALPINDI: ‘Siphai Maqbool Hussain’, a play that narrates the true story of a Pakistani soldier, Maqbool Hussain, premiered on Tuesday at the Army Auditorium.

The premiere of the play was attended by a large number of people from all walks of life. Chief of Army Staff (COAS) General Ashfaq Kayani, the chief guest of the event, applauded Hussain’s story for its portrayal of his valour.

Co-produced by the Inter-Services Public Relations and Interflow Communications Limited, ‘Siphai Maqbool Hussain’ touched the hearts of the spectators, as the play delineated the suffering and inhumane treatment of Hussain and the cruelty of his captors, who brutally cut his tongue.

40 years: Hussain, who was injured and taken prisoner by the Indian Army in the 1965 war, spent 40 years in Indian jails. He was released as a civilian prisoner in 2005. During his imprisonment, Hussain was subjected to terrible human rights abuses.

Hailing from Azad Kashmir, and engaged to Naseeran before joining army, Hussain’s aging mother kept waiting for his return. When she died, Hussain’s mother was buried at the entrance of the village at her request, so that she could ‘meet’ her son when he returned.

Haider Imam Rizvi directed the play, while the cast included Raja Haider, Batin Farooqi, Riaz Mastana, Hassan Niazi, Reeja and Ghazala Butt. Shafqat Amanat Ali Khan sung the play’s theme song. ‘Siphai Maqbool Hussain’ will also be telecast on Pakistan Television as a weekly serial.

As the story unfolds, Hussain, bearing army No 335139, is shown being hit by enemy fire on the Line of Control at the start of the 1965 war. Subsequently, he is taken prisoner by the Indian army, who deny him Prisoner of War status. Trained in the traditions of the Pakistan Army, Hussain faces all the suffering and refuses to share any information about his country with his captors — so much so that when they cut out his tongue, he writes ‘Pakistan Zindabad’ (long live Pakistan) in his own blood. Hussain also becomes mentally ill during his four decades of incarceration.


When the real Hussain was brought on stage at the end of the performance, he had a blank look on his face and was unable to recognise the army chief, who went on stage and shook hands with him.


Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


While they are men like him around Pakistan will never die.

Well, how much terrotory did we redeem during 1965 or 1971. Not more than350 square miles.
Azad kashmir is what was formed/captured during 1947-1950 when it was nobodys land.

Unlike the infidals Mukti bahini fauj-that "liberated" the dirty part of Pakistan, who lost the entire East Pakistan.

 

[waz]

Well, how much terrotory did we redeem during 1965 or 1971. Not more than350 square miles.
Azad kashmir is what was formed/captured during 1947-1950 when it was nobodys land.

Unlike the infidals Mukti bahini fauj-that "liberated" the dirty part of Pakistan, who lost the entire East Pakistan.

Hailing from the region myself, no it was not "no man's land". The region was under occupation from the Dogra Raj which was supported by the British. The Azad Kashmir militia liberated it. The amount of territory “redeemed” doesn’t even come into the argument as there was plenty of other errors in the conflicts fought. As for 65 yes the valley population did not rise up as we had expected but after the crushing they were given after the religious riots earlier who would blame them. Anyhow I’m talking more about the Azad side.

The Mukti's did not do things by themselves and were a spent force after operation searchlight. It was the intervention of the Indian army that turned the tide. Also how could they go wrong with that part being cut off from us, hundreds of miles apart and entire population against the Pakistan army.