Kashmir | News & Discussions.

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

AJK is not Pakistani territory to begin with.

Pakistan should let it go for the sake of settling the Kashmir issue with India.

Are you suggesting ceding AK to India, or something else?

 

[waz]

Are you suggesting ceding AK to India, or something else?

No he is suggesting it becomes a separate state along with the valley, kargil etc [Muslim majorities]. But will India ever let go of the side it controls? The answer is never. Strategically why should they? They control more land, have the sources and course of Pakistan’s rivers within that land, have numerous hydroelectric projects planned and existing ones they have built etc. The area is stunning and ever so scenic and they could make a killing out of tourism as well. They are not going to roll over and say “here you go Pakistan for the sake of our eternal peace we will grant independence to our side whilst you give it to Azad Kashmir”. What is the benefit for them? They can cope with the Kashmir insurgency, as since the taps were turned off a few years back it has dwindled greatly.

If they did grant freedom to the people what they would end up with is a state which is a Muslim majority and which will have immensely close ties with Pakistan. Many also state that if they do let go the whole region will simply go with Pakistan especially with the influence of the people in Azad Kashmir who overwhelmingly see themselves as Pakistani’s. Plain and simple they will not let go of it and heck even Musharaf said himself that independence is NOT AN OPTION for Kashmir and he is known to have made the greatest headway in the dispute and talked of concessions.

SRINAGAR - Muslim separatists in Indian Kashmir on Tuesday said they were dismayed at an interview by Pakistan’s president in which he said independence for the region was not an option in peace talks with New Delhi.
President Pervez Musharraf said in an interview to New Delhi Television made available late Monday that he was opposed to independence for Kashmir, and India and Pakistan would have to compromise over the disputed territory.
“Yes, we are against independence” for Kashmir, Musharraf told the Indian NDTV news channel.
Khaleej Times Online - Musharraf U-turn bewilders Kashmiri rebels

some more links

Musharraf opposes Kashmir independence

Pakistan willing to drop Kashmir claim - Boston.com


As for Pakistan “giving their part up” well firstly like I mentioned before strategically you will be cutting your own throat. Also more importantly what the hell are you going to call the nation then? The “K” stands for KASHMIR! Are we going to have a grand renaming? What is the nation going to be called after that Paistan?



What of the great quaid and his saying that “Kashmir is the jugular vein of Pakistan”. What of the great Alamah Iqbal who was a Kashmiri and was one of the great thinkers and motivators behind the theory of Pakistan. How would these great personalities feel that we just spat on them and “gave up” our part of Kashmir. Shall we also get into the two nation theory as well? Some say that the independence of Bangladesh showed the flaws in this, with Kashmir going I’m pretty sure that will be the final nail in the coffin. Also what guarantee do we have that with Kashmir going similar sentiments might not erupt across Pakistan? What if the Northern folk want to go their own way, the Jaye Sind movement gains ground in Sindh, the Baloch want out and FATA's tribal’s break away as they joined for a UNITED Muslim homeland. This is also the reason India dreads a break as it could give rise to similar sentiments.

 

[bhangra12345]

Pakistan's objections relate to the deign of the dam, not the dam itself, and apparently Pakistan has not objected to several other dams that have been constructed.

From Wiki, a brief overview:

All I see are "claims", which I wrote as "thoughts".

At the very least, you agree that we do have the right to build run-of-river dams. Pakistan took its claims on Bagilar to the world bank and the neutral commissioner overuled three of its claims and made a minor modification to the fourth claim.

 

[bhangra12345]

Are you suggesting ceding AK to India, or something else?

AM,
You cede something you have. But technically speaking, "AK" is not a part of Pakistan, which is why the nomenclature for its head is Prime Minister.
So his first statement is correct.

When you dont have something in the first place, what are you leaving? Read along this lines.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

AM,
You cede something you have. But technically speaking, "AK" is not a part of Pakistan, which is why the nomenclature for its head is Prime Minister.
So his first statement is correct.

When you dont have something in the first place, what are you leaving? Read along this lines.

Bhangra and Waz:

Leave the technicality of AK not being part of Pakistan alone at the moment, the fact is that it falls under Pakistan's sphere of influence - our military is stationed there

"Ceding" AK was meant to imply that Pakistan would withdraw its military, which would inevitably result in India occupying the region.

Waz's explanation makes sense however, and presents a face saving solution for all sides, but specifically allows the Kashmiris to unite and govern themselves, while retaining trade and cultural ties with both India and Pakistan.

 

[dabong1]

Good show.

So are they in Gitmo now? ...

You wish...

That was always a second choice. The first choice of course would be the person demanding continued violence and suffering for other human beings. So there...

i have done my little bit......put how do i prove it...?

Ask salim who was in signals intercept if he has heard of the chamb sector in kashmir

 

[dabong1]

Dabong,

Purely from the academic standpoint can we know the social, economic, religious background, the motivation and payment for sustenance of your relatives who were killed and who escaped?

Well my UK friends where degree holders in i think it was accounting and law.
Both where from wealthy familys and where muslims.
If you are killed then your family is given certain foodstuffs every month and few thousand rupees a month also........the ones from the UK do not get any payment of any kind to there families.

Why did some die and why did some live?

Luck...gods will...fate.

What was the tenure?

3 months if your in kashmir....i dont know about afghanistan

And if you are fro such a jihadi family, why are you not there??

I was talked out of it by an al badr commander......they want us to raise money and create awarness.
For every 1 freedom fighter on the field there are 4 people behind him to keep him going.
Who drives the cars,cooks,raises money ect.......every person can not go and fight.
Out of a million indian soilders how many actually fight and how many are behind them in supporting roles.

Purely academic since it fascinates that people are ready to be die for an abstract cause while other loll in the background merely to cheer and exhort in the name of religion!!

Freedom may be an abstract idea for you but when you do not have it its aright you are willing to die for.
Make yourself happy into thinking there all brainwashed fanatics....its makes our job easier.

 

[dabong1]

My experience with the terrorist, including signal intercepts, is that the unemployed and those in jail and promised amnesty for a tour of J&K counts.

I will not deny there are crimminal elements involved the struggle........i case i recall is where "freedom fighters" where swapping herion with certain memebers of indian army who giving them alcohol in exchange.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Well my UK friends where degree holders in i think it was accounting and law.
Both where from wealthy familys and where muslims.
If you are killed then your family is given certain foodstuffs every month and few thousand rupees a month also........the ones from the UK do not get any payment of any kind to there families.

Most commendable.

What religious fervour.

Does the UK intel know about them?


Luck...gods will...fate.

3 months if your in kashmir....i dont know about afghanistan

Totally wrong info.

I was talked out of it by an al badr commander......they want us to raise money and create awarness.
For every 1 freedom fighter on the field there are 4 people behind him to keep him going.
Who drives the cars,cooks,raises money ect.......every person can not go and fight.
Out of a million indian soilders how many actually fight and how many are behind them in supporting roles.

That must be real disappointing to be just a support staff for such a great cause!

Must try again!

Freedom may be an abstract idea for you but when you do not have it its aright you are willing to die for.
Make yourself happy into thinking there all brainwashed fanatics....its makes our job easier.

Indeed!

 

[dabong1]

Most commendable.

What religious fervour.

Does the UK intel know about them?

As i have said before...theres was tv programme about one of my mates and the other two had articles about them in local/national papers........so yes the UK intel know all about them.

[Totally wrong info.?

And you would know would you...?
It shows you really are a internet warrior.....read a couple of articles on the net and your an expert..

That must be real disappointing to be just a support staff for such a great cause!!.

Yes it was.....would have loved to teach some indian soldiers a lesson in how to fight.

How i would have loved to have met you on the battelfield and taken a couple of pot shots at you.....

Must try again!.?

No need.......i wonder how much bullets you can buy for a pound

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I think that exchanges along the line that have been going on so far need to stay civil and not reduce to underhanded attempts at denigrating the other side - be it Indian soldiers or the Kashmiri Freedom Fighters.

That would only result in a flame war with each side pointing out the cowardice and atrocities of the other.

Dabong has given a very personal account of how his family and friends have been involved in the struggle. I think that given there are two sides to the issue, one must respect that and proceed in a civil manner and conduct discourse along lines that encourage the sharing of information that broadens our perspectives and understanding of the other side, rather than mere point scoring.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Dabong,

What do you make of the accusations that there are certain groups in IK who are killing civilians?

Are these people not Kashmiri, and of the "Taliban/AQ" bent, or do you not believe that any of the groups involved have committed atrocities against non-combatants?

I think the sorts of militants I am talking about have tarnished the Kashmiri movement, and have allowed everyone to be painted by the same brush.

That said, I personally think that the time for fighting is over. It is time to spend our resources and commitment on building roads, schools, hospitals and colleges so that we can tangibly show everyone that a Kashmir not controlled by India has a better quality of life for its residents.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

AM,,

You could not have summed it up better!

 

[Energon]

Dabong,

What do you make of the accusations that there are certain groups in IK who are killing civilians?

Are these people not Kashmiri, and of the "Taliban/AQ" bent, or do you not believe that any of the groups involved have committed atrocities against non-combatants?

I think the sorts of militants I am talking about have tarnished the Kashmiri movement, and have allowed everyone to be painted by the same brush.

That said, I personally think that the time for fighting is over. It is time to spend our resources and commitment on building roads, schools, hospitals and colleges so that we can tangibly show everyone that a Kashmir not controlled by India has a better quality of life for its residents.

At the same time India must be given the right to do pursue active progress on their own side. This will only happen when article 370 is withdrawn. The entire Indian economic gravy train needs to be unleashed upon Kashmir as it has for other states of the union.

 

[dabong1]

Dabong,

What do you make of the accusations that there are certain groups in IK who are killing civilians?.

Certain elements or to use a often indian used quote....a few bad apples have killed innocent people,i am not going to deny that but it is no different to the number of "bad apples" in the indian army.

Are these people not Kashmiri, and of the "Taliban/AQ" bent, or do you not believe that any of the groups involved have committed atrocities against non-combatants??.

The main period i can refer to is during 1999/95 at that time as far i am aware the was no taliban/AQ....i did come across a few pathans but i think they where pak military.
The main culprit in kashmir but also in my opinion the most effective from a military point of view would have to be Lashkar-e-Tayyiba.
The problem with these guys was that where hardcore wahabbis and took things to a extreme.
I remember passing through a small town near the border where a large crowd had gathered,when i inquired about what was going on i was told two indian soldiers had been captured by LeT.
I found out later on that instead of handing the prisoners to the pak army LeT had killed one soldier by a shot in the head and the other was kicked to death.
The quran says you can not harm PoW.......now if the LeT cant follow a simple instruction like that then i pretty sure that they would have commited crimes on the civilian population....

I think the sorts of militants I am talking about have tarnished the Kashmiri movement, and have allowed everyone to be painted by the same brush..

A few bad apples.....like you get in all organisations and groups....but it has to be stamped out!

That said, I personally think that the time for fighting is over. It is time to spend our resources and commitment on building roads, schools, hospitals and colleges so that we can tangibly show everyone that a Kashmir not controlled by India has a better quality of life for its residents.

I dont know if you have been to AJK but let me assure you of one thing we have a better standard of living then our relations in IOK.
My mums cousin came a couple of years ago and the first thing he noticed was the higher standard of living we had in AJK then those in IOK.
If the pak govt feels the way you do ,then i think its time to merge AJK into the federation of pakistan.