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So, is new media only reinforcing old stereotypes?


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Complete Independence is one of the options promised to the Kashmiris by the UN in the form of a plebiscite that Nehru promised would be held when "Conditions Normalize" however it seems that in India's book the situation has never "Normalized".

Sir, when was it given a chance to "normalize"? Right from the day one of pakistan coming into existence, jinnah started sending 'mujahids' into kashmir & since then, the condition of kashmir has been anything but normal.
India has never abandoned the option of plebiscite, but it cannot let it happen when the neighbouring country is openly fueling insurgency, causing heavy casualties to the civilians and armed forces in the part of country which is officially ours (as per the accession treaty).
India, as promised by nehruji, is determined to solve the dispute as soon as the situation normalize which was evident during the musharraf era when it was said that the two countries were almost about to reach a settlement on kashmir and the reason, if I quote Najam Sethi ji, "Pakistan stopped supporting insurgency in J&K." Let the situation normalise and I don't see why not India-pak can decide on the future of kashmir as the kashmiris themselves want it to be. :)

Pakistan has always supported the plebiscite

I guess that is why it tried to take over kashmir by force three times in 47, 65 & 99 and did not give the people of kashmir a chance to decide in a plebiscite which country they want to join..? 'Actions speak louder than words.'


Regards.
 
@skeptic

Part Kashmiri myself and yes you are right.

It's either go Pakistani or get independence. :)

Anyways, I don't know if you believe in the surveys but there was no majority for an independent Kashmir anyways. But a 43% and 44% result cannot be simply ignored. And 74% and 95% on the Indian side of the Kashmir valley who DO favor independence cannot be ignored either.

Jammu doesn't want independent Kashmir, but the valley surely does.
 
Because most of the parties that matter have accepted the fact that its India's internal matter.
I never knew that the people in the West really cared much about it.

Plus, it's isn't that big right now; it's merely stick & stones. When they go for the guns, (if they go for the guns), then you should except it to go international.
 
@skeptic

Part Kashmiri myself and yes you are right.

It's either go Pakistani or get independence. :)

Anyways, I don't know if you believe in the surveys but there was no majority for an independent Kashmir anyways. But a 43% and 44% result cannot be simply ignored. And 74% and 95% on the Indian side of the Kashmir valley who DO favor independence cannot be ignored either.

Jammu doesn't want independent Kashmir, but the valley surely does.

i think you did not get my point. I am trying to establish whether pakistan has ever supported independent kashmir. Or in simpler words - will independent kashmir be acceptable to pakistan?

If you claim yes - then please back your claim up with a single instance of pakistan officially mentioning / approving it.
 
This is really sad because India calls Kashmir it's part and then puts force onto these innocent people.

Compare Bombay, Bangalore, Kolkata with Srinagar and you'll know what i mean.

Force is put on the street only when there are violent mobs. Many also get killed. For example 70+ Gujjars were shot dead last year when they started protesting for reservations. In 2008 300+ UP residents were shot dead in different protests.

So dont be under the impression that only Kashmir isaffected. Crowd policing is a nation wide issue in India.
 
I think more people would have died in the clash in other states than Jammu and Kashmir but because J&K is highlighted in Media, we see such news more in No.

I think lot of people were killed by security official on using violent method for wage increase, reservation, land rates, etc.
 
not according to your IP address ;)

is there something I should know?
So, where does my IP Address point to ?

before heading to the meat factory....
It doesn't matter to me where are they headed ; I just hope for the sake of your countrymen, the TTP don't make 'em swallow C-4s and then do a Bovine-shahadat in the next public corner they head to, while people around scream
Holy_Cow_logo.gif
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@skeptic

Part Kashmiri myself and yes you are right.

It's either go Pakistani or get independence. :)

.

unfortunately the Pakistani Government disagrees with you and says that Kashmir cannot become an independent entity. It has to go with either India or Pakistan. It agreed to that in the much touted UN resolutions. You can check up on that.

Here you go...

Independence option

But there was a split between those demanding a plebiscite in order to determine allegiance to either India or Pakistan and those who stated that a third option should be added: Independence.



Ladakhis do not want to join Pakistan

Pakistan has consistently called for the issue to be resolved by means of a plebiscite and has blamed India for reneging on its pledge.
But although it supports the Kashmiris "right of self-determination," Pakistan has never accepted the third option as a possible outcome.
Link
 
Curfew relaxed for four hours in parts of Srinagar - India - DNA

Curfew was relaxed for four hours in southern and eastern parts of Srinagar city today, providing much-needed relief to the people in these areas after six days.

The curfew has been relaxed in south and east zones of the city from 12 noon to 4 pm, a police spokesman said.

However, there will be no relaxation in Maisuma and Kralkhud police station areas falling in the east zone.

The spokesman said curfew will be relaxed in other parts of the city after assessing the law and order situation in those areas.

Curfew was imposed in Srinagar on Sunday following violent protests and incidents of arson on the day of Eid-ul-Fitr.
 
Trans-Karakoram Tract - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is a understanding b/w Pakistan and China, though not sure on what basis they signed it since Pakistan(as suggested by people here) does not consider Azad Kashmir as pakistan territory....Anyways India do not recognize this understanding, so in essence this land belongs to Jammu and Kashmit and plebiscite should include it, right???

That was Chinese territory that Pakistan laid claim to, China returned some of the area and retained the rest. That's what border talks are all about aren't they ? You can never hope to secure all the land you want. And the areas should certainly be included in the plebiscite.

I must say i have a very different understanding....Can you please throw some more light on it??? I am under the impression that unlike Indians ordianry pakistan can settle in P-O-K....

Incorrect, in fact ordinary Pakistanis are not even allowed to travel into Kashmir other than the cities of Muzaffarabad and Mirpur(both cities away from the border, to avoid border crossings). You need special permission to travel deeper into kashmir and only two authorities can allow that permission. The Army and the AJ&K Govt.
Similarly Pakistanis cannot settle or buy land in Azad Kashmir otherwise I would have most certainly bought some land and made a nice house there on a beautiful hillside back in 2002.

Yes, however we cannot ignore them, right??? I am sure you would like to include everybody for plebiscite, no???

Those who chose to leave, left at their own will. So they may or may not choose to take part in the plebiscite.
What??? BUt was this promised when Nehru asked for plebiscite(it was Nehru's promise because of which Kashmir case if different from rest of India during partition)?? If not then why are we putting in more conditions now???

This was one of the recommendations presented by the UN for holding plebiscite in J&K. It is not an added condition.
 
Sorry but you have raised this issue in various international forums with many appeals to US for intervention......Even now Kureshi has asked international community to step in....

Intervention to stop the fighting in Kashmir, we are in noway asking for international community to put diplomatic pressure on India to free Kashmir.

Thanks for the explanation...So i am sure you would have held some plebiscite there to find out what actually the people of Gilgit and Baltistan wan't....Secondly did you consider what people of Kashmir think about it??? Since you yourself said that International community consider Gilgit Baltistan as part of Jammu and Kashmir so whenever plebiscite occur will it be fair to not consider GB as part of Kashmir???

A referendum was held and we acknowledge that according to the UN GB is still a disputed region and the region will be available for plebiscite whenever the time is right.

Do you see how complex plebiscite would be to conduct???

Nothing is impossible !:cheesy:
 
Sir, when was it given a chance to "normalize"? Right from the day one of pakistan coming into existence, jinnah started sending 'mujahids' into kashmir & since then, the condition of kashmir has been anything but normal.
India has never abandoned the option of plebiscite, but it cannot let it happen when the neighbouring country is openly fueling insurgency, causing heavy casualties to the civilians and armed forces in the part of country which is officially ours (as per the accession treaty).
India, as promised by nehruji, is determined to solve the dispute as soon as the situation normalize which was evident during the musharraf era when it was said that the two countries were almost about to reach a settlement on kashmir and the reason, if I quote Najam Sethi ji, "Pakistan stopped supporting insurgency in J&K." Let the situation normalise and I don't see why not India-pak can decide on the future of kashmir as the kashmiris themselves want it to be. :)



I guess that is why it tried to take over kashmir by force three times in 47, 65 & 99 and did not give the people of kashmir a chance to decide in a plebiscite which country they want to join..? 'Actions speak louder than words.'


Regards.

Border crossings in Kashmir can never be stopped if India keeps the AFSPA in effect. The Azad Kashmiris see their brethren being killed and they obviously are enraged by what they see and so they act. During the Musharraf era, Kashmir was peaceful and therefore infiltration was also at a minimum.
BTW, in 47 Pakistan sent forces after Indian troops intervened to squash a Civil Uprising.
65, I admit was Pakistan's fault.
99, please do not take it out of context it was only about kargil, never about kashmir.
 
Ground situation in Kashmir critical: A civil society team report | TwoCircles.net

New Delhi: A high-level delegation of civil society comprising eminent personalities including Swami Agnivesh, Admiral L. Ramdas, Ms. Mohini Giri, Fr. Dominic Emmanuel and Dr. Mazher Hussain visited Kashmir Valley from 30th August to 2nd September 2010. They found the situation on the ground to be very critical and tragic.

The delegation, facilitated by COVA (Confederation of Voluntary Associations), in its report said it found the situation to be critical and tragic and also gained some startling understanding of the scenario. “It is clear that the situation precipitated and aggravated in the immediate context due to insensitivity and administrative failures,” the report says.

The delegation of eminent personalities has recommended an independent inquiry into all the killings in Kashmir starting from the fake encounter in Macchil (Kupwara) in April 2010, withdrawal of AFSPA (Armed Forces Special Powers Act) and Cases booked against the protesters and release of all political prisoners.

Text of the Report:

A Delegation of Civil Society comprising Swami Agnivesh, Admiral L. Ramdas, Ms. Mohini Giri, Fr. Dominic Emmanuel and Dr. Mazher Hussain visited Kashmir Valley from 30th August to 2nd September 2010. The objective of the visit was to gain first hand knowledge of the prevailing ground situation in the Kashmir and to commiserate with the people for their suffering and loss of life. The Delegation found the situation to be critical and tragic and also gained some startling understanding of the scenario. It is clear that the situation precipitated and aggravated in the immediate context due to insensitivity and administrative failures. A Report of the visit of the Delegation is attached.

A Delegation of Civil Society comprising Swami Agnivesh, Admiral L. Ramdas, Ms. Mohini Giri, Fr. Dominic Emmanuel and Dr. Mazher Hussain visited Kashmir Valley from 30th August to 2nd September 2010. The objective of the visit was to gain first hand knowledge of the prevailing ground situation in the valley and to commiserate with the people of Kashmir for their suffering and loss of life. Over 65 youth and children have lost their lives in the past three months, besides many hundreds have been injured. The team visited the homes of some families to share our concern and condole with them.

The persistent curfews and strikes, coupled with the heavy deployment of security forces have forced the women folk to stay back home – completely “caged”-and they are the worst sufferers. It is imperative that special measures are required for their security and wellbeing.

Meetings

The delegation met a cross section of people including the injured in the hospital,, families of victims, youth, separatist leaders, mainstream political parties, doctors, advocates, academicians, businessmen, religious leaders, members of civil society, journalists and ministers of the state government.

Some of the prominent people with whom the delegation interacted were the Governor of Jammu & Kashmir, Mufti Mohammad Sayeed Former Chief Minister of J&K, Syed Shah Geelani of the Huriat (G), Mirwaiz Omar Farooq Huriat (M), Yaseen Malik JKLF, Maulana Shaukat of Jamat E Ahle Hadis, and Mr. Yousuf Tarigami M.L.A. From the government the delegation met Mr. Rathar(Finance Minister), Mr Sagar (Law Minister), Mr Taj Mohidin (Uri)

Observations

• The situation in the Kashmir Valley is both critical and tragic. For over 80 days now, there has been curfew and hartals causing untold hardships and misery to the people at large.

• 64 people, mostly teenagers, have been killed in firing by the police and paramilitary forces and hundreds have been injured. During the visit to the SKIMS hospital in Srinagar, the delegation saw that some of the injured had head injuries and two were in a comatose condition. The Delegation also met two women- one in her sixties and one in her twenties who were injured in firing.

• The Delegation wishes to place on record that the conditions at the hospital were clean and the doctors and staff appeared dedicated. That the injured are being treated free of charge is appreciated. (Comment-Free of charge treatment provided by the government)

• The Delegation also visited the homes of two teenagers Mr. Omar Qayoom Bhatt and Tufail Mattoo (both 17 years) who had died to pay condolences to their families. It is reported that Omar was picked up by the police and tortured brutally for 36 hours that led to his death within three days of his release from custody. Tufail Mattoo was killed when a tear gas shell was fired at his head that brought his brains out. It is reported that he was killed while walking back from his classes- his school bag on his shoulders.

• Many such instances are cited of innocent people – especially youth and children being fired at – including the one in Anantnag where an 8 year old child who was being taken to a hospital by his mother for treatment was killed when a bullet pierced his head. One the very day the delegation reached Srinagar, 4 teenagers playing caroms in Miasoma area of Srinagar were fired at by the police and injured. One of them is very critical and has very little chances of survival.

• Every one bitterly complained about the total insensitivity of the establishment as well as the people and the media in India to the tragic happenings in Kashmir. Their main lament was against the Prime Minister of India who they said waited for two months and 60 deaths to express his concern. Some contended that India is interested only in the picnic spots of Kashmir and not in its people.

• Every one that the Delegation met is outraged by the fact that the security forces have been indulging in indiscriminate firing even on peaceful protests. The Delegation time and again agreed with the people and emphasized the point that in a democracy people have the freedom and should be given that freedom to express their views in a peaceful way. They should have the aazadi to shout pro-aazadi slogans on the streets and no police should open fire on them. This is what is meant by democracy.

• Even in instances when some youth are indulging in stone pelting, the answer cannot be firing to kill. Such direct resort to lethal force instead of acceptable crowd control measures has transported the entire population of Kashmir from alienation to extreme anger. Every killing by the security forces is adding to the anger and bringing out more protesters- thereby adding to the spiral of violence.

• The Ministers with whom the Delegation interacted stated that it is a matter of shame for them also when all these killings of their own people are taking place. One Minister said that he had expressed himself against the killings on a national television channel. Even the Governor said that a few mistakes were made and that things could have been controlled in the initial stages.

• It seems necessary to investigate all the cases of killings and injuries during these past months to determine all instances of unnecessary use of force and punish the guilty in the cause of justice and to win back the trust and confidence of the people.

• Presently, neither the administration nor the security forces seem to be acting in any accountable manner. Such unaccountable and undemocratic actions of the administration and the forces appear possible because of Laws like the AFSPA, Disturbed Areas Act and PSA that are in force in the State of J& K. There is an urgent need to repeal all such laws immediately to bring back democratic and accountable governance that would be in the interest of and for the people.

• Many people expressed outrage at the allegations that the ongoing unrest is sponsored by Pakistan or fuelled by some militant groups and found it insulting. The fact that thousands are coming on the streets and for months discredits the contention that the disturbances are sponsored or engineered by some one.

• The common contention is that this is the result of 63 years of repression and the mind set of the youth who were born during the past 20 years of militancy and have experienced nothing but turmoil and conflict. All of them expressed how they were tired of seeing the army and police all around. The seniors mentioned that while they had taken the presence of the army and police for granted and tolerated it but that is not how it was going to be with the new growing up generation. The youth resent it and that is why times in future are going to be worse than what we see now.

• It is these youth who are engaging in stone pelting and even defying all the leaders of the movement. A leader like Mr. Syed Ali Shah Geelani had to modify his remarks about stone pelting when the youth rebelled against his advisory to remain peaceful. Elders are apprehensive that if the aspirations of these youth are not addressed seriously, some of them may leave the stones to take up guns leading to another round of a bloodbath that will not be in the interest of any one.

• The Delegation is amazed to note that the degree and intensity of anger is cutting across age, class and gender. Every one- from a 14 year old child to a 75 year old elder, a man on the street or a professional, men and women are expressing the same sentiments and speaking in the same voice. The general echo was that it has to be a ‘Do or Die” effort this time around

• Every one complained of being ill treated and insulted by the security forces that could also end up in beatings. That the very large presence of the armed forces and frequent curfews has transformed the entire society into an “open jail”. “Azaadi” has become the predominant slogan along with demands for total withdrawal of gun from the State, restoration of their respect and honour as a people and expression of extreme distrust of the Indian State.

• Most people blamed the Indian state for the prevailing conditions and accused the Indian state of being insincere and non serious about the Kashmir issue. They contend that there are many instances where the Indian Government offered to engage in dialogue but withdrew half way thereby damaging the credibility of the people who had accepted the offer and proceeded to negotiate. It was pointed out by Mr. Geelani that since 1948 more than 130 initiatives for dialogue were started but abandoned with out reaching any results and there by discrediting the institution of dialogue itself. Mr. Mirwaiz said that the Indian government, instead of having dialogue to solve the problem in Kashmir was talking through the barrel of the gun.

• Unlike in the rest of the country, most people in Kashmir are well informed of the historical contexts and contend that the accession of the State of Jammu & Kashmir to the Indian Union was as per certain conditions and want that agreement to be respected and restored. Many assert that they are not demanding autonomy but the restoration of autonomy that was theirs as per the instrument of accession.

• Many people were categorical that the issue of Jammu & Kashmir is a political issue and not to be confused with being economic or even that of human rights even though righst violations are gross and rampant. They found it demeaning that the Government of India has come out with economic packages and offers of creation of more jobs when what is required and wanted is a political solution.

• On the other hand, induction of more and more armed forces can only exacerbate the problem and never be the solution. The sooner this is realized, the better it will be for every one.

• Many people expressed themselves against the silence of the civil society in India as a whole on the Kashmir situation and felt disappointed about its role and efficacy in addressing the issue. Many reiterated that the civil society should build up public opinion all over the country so that the Kashmir issue could be resolved.

• The Delegation noted that while every on spoke of “Azaadi”, there did not seem to be much clarity or consensus about the meaning of “Azaadi”. It varied from withdrawal of the gun to autonomy of the state to independence from the Indian state. But non mentioned about merging with Pakistan.

• Even Mr. Geelani, who had always maintained the position of merger with Pakistan issued a statement during the visit of the Delegation talking about the possibility of Kashmir as an independent country like Switzerland and also came out with five conditions as a precursor for the initiation of the dialogue process. A big step forward as he had been the one who had been engaged in “rejectionist” politics and consistently refused to engage in dialogue with the Indian state.

• The Delegation noted that most people in the Kashmir valley that it interacted with were focused mostly on the Kashmir region and the issues of Jammu and Leh- Ladakh were left out from all discussions. Any holistic and proper solution to the issue will have to take into consideration the interests of all the regions of the state and this will be one of the main challenges for any attempt that could provide a meaningful, lasting and just solution.

• The Delegation is also pained by the fact that the all schools, colleges and institutions of learning are now closed for nearly three months and students are suffering. There were no takers for the appeal by Delegation for allowing institutions of learning to function as it was contended that allowing schools and colleges to function would be a setback for the agitation.

• Now it is for the Government of India to provide the required confidence building measures (CBMs) and initiate a process of engagement and dialogue for a just and lasting political solution for the entire state of Jammu & Kashmir.

Recommendations

The Delegation makes the following recommendations that could act as confidence building measures and facilitate the emergence of a lasting solution:

1. There should be an independent inquiry into all the killings in Kashmir starting from the fake encounter in Macchil (Kupwara) in April 2010.

2. All political prisoners should be released immediately.

3. Cases booked against the protesters should be withdrawn. In many instances, cases of attempt to murder were booked against people including teenagers for stone pelting.

4. AFSPA (Armed Forces Special Powers Act), the Disturbed Areas Act and PSA (Public Safety Act) should be withdrawn immediately.

5. The army and paramilitary forces should be removed from the cities and civilian areas.

6. Space for peaceful protest should be provided. Use of firing should be stopped. Crowd control management should be done in accordance with non-lethal measures.

7. Violence in all forms should cease immediately by all concerned.

8. An all Party Parliamentary delegation should visit Kashmir immediately to reach out to the people and start the process of reconciliation and engagement.

9. A consistent and uninterrupted process of dialogue should be initiated for a solution to the Jammu & Kashmir issue that is festering for over 60 years.

COVA (Confederation of Voluntary Associations) initiated the process for the visit of the delegation and local coordination and felicitation was provided by Mr. Mohd. Shafi Pandit, former civil servant, Mr. Zafar Meraj and Mr. Shujaat Bukhari, journalists and Mr. Shakeel Qalander, President, Federation of Industries.
 
SRINAGAR, India, Sept 18, 2010 (AFP) - Police fired on fresh anti-India demonstrations in Kashmir on Saturday, killing at least one and bringing the number of civilian deaths in an unprecedented wave of unrest to 100.

The protester was killed in Anantnag town when police shot at demonstrators who were hurling stones, after authorities retrieved the body of a man who drowned earlier in the week when police allegedly chased him into a river.

"Security forces had to open fire to quell the violent demonstration," a police officer told AFP from Anantnag, south of Srinagar, summer capital of Kashmir where a two-decade revolt has been under way against New Delhi's rule.

Government forces have been battling for months to quell angry pro-independence demonstrations in the mainly Muslim region that were ignited by the police killing of a 17-year-old student on June 11.

Thousands spilled onto the streets Saturday in a fresh outpouring of public anger, including woman and children who defied a rigid indefinite curfew brought in across the region to try to contain the unrest.

In Srinagar, protesters spilled into the streets shouting, "We want freedom!" after officials reported another young protester died in hospital Saturday after being hurt earlier in the week by police firing.

So far, 100 protesters and bystanders, including children, have been killed since June according to an AFP tally, mostly by security forces firing on demonstrators who were pelting them with stones, chunks of wood and concrete.

One policeman has also died.

On Friday the London-based human rights group Amnesty International called on Indian authorities to order security forces not to use firearms against demonstrators.

"There is an urgent need for the government to act" to prevent more deaths, Amnesty said in a statement.

"Security forces should use the minimum force necessary to defend themselves," Amnesty said.

The government is sending a 35-member all-party delegation to Kashmir on Monday to seek a way out of the cycle of violence, Indian media reported.
 
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