Kargil: A Debacle or A Lost Opportunity?

[Moscow]

Mascow sir as your countary have been in deadliest wars and suffered lot in eastern front u know better the only front in war, how much land u gain not how many people died r how many soldiers died if we look that way then so your beloved Russia never won this front,its called war coz people and solider die for their countary only front that matter is when it all ends where are your soilders you must be knowing this better after all the NAZI's were at Mascow door in 1942.and yes it was big intelligence failure but it canot be criteria of rating this front coz in end pakistani intelligence failed to when they could not pik the response of india whn it all started.



sir i have already told you that i am not into the win-lose game me personally is not for war as you can see from my posts, my countries opinion is not the same as mine. i have my own way of looking at things but supported by facts and logics.

now sir i answered all your 8 points the first seven seems ok now the last point.
my country misjudged the affect of war and you can see the results for yourself.where is the USSR now.?war is only fought when its a necessity the german invasion was our necessity to defend our motherland it was thrust upon us and only the true slaviks know how much casulties they suffered in ww2.
and sir as per your definition winning depends on the amount of land you gain on that front how did india gain? the land was always their they only recaptured unlike the german invasion in our country when the war ended we had significant gains terms of new land.also
you are right sir when you judged that pakistani intelligence misjudged the indian response even if they had judged it properly the political establishment failed in their efforts to implement it.

sir your idea of war is judged on the amount of land gained, dosent it have an effect on the economy, isnt it dependent on the establishment who runs the war.in pursuit of land if you loose the economy is it wise, my country learnt it the hard way,, <what happened to the fate of ussr after the war> even the americans are learning it now.

a win is a win only when you totally annihilate the enemy like in ww2 then its a different story unlike in afgan war when we actually did not loose/gain any of our original land< so according to your definition loss should be insignificant but it did have a big bearing. >

again sir i repeat please view my posts not in terms of win or loss but just as an assessment to the after situation .

 

[A1Kaid]

ISI and Pakistani Army officials were disappointed with the decision of the civilian leadership of Nawas Sharif. His decision to withdraw forces and his request and plea to Washington to establish a mutual cease fire, was the wrong move.


Pakistani Army believed Kargil would be a limited conflict and they were right, due to the political bungling by our civilian leader Kargil like 1962 Sino-Indian War was another "Missed Opportunity"

Pakistan simply did not take full advantage.

 

[Vinod2070]

ISI and Pakistani Army officials were disappointed with the decision of the civilian leadership of Nawas Sharif. His decision to withdraw forces and his request and plea to Washington to establish a mutual cease fire, was the wrong move.


Pakistani Army believed Kargil would be a limited conflict and they were right, due to the political bungling by our civilian leader Kargil like 1962 Sino-Indian War was another "Missed Opportunity"

Pakistan simply did not take full advantage.

We all saw the war happening live on TV.

We all know that Gen. Musharraf sent him off at the airport requesting him to pull his chestnuts out of the fire. We all saw the Tiger hill, Tololing and other peaks being captured by Indian soldiers.

How can something like that (a clear military debacle on top of diplomatic and political one) be spun like this. Would Musharraf allow that to happen? Would the army allow some Shariff to destroy a victory if they thought they could achieve it?

Politicians have been disposed of for much smaller reasons in Pakistan. This seems another fairy tale to keep the folklore alive.

 

[A1Kaid]

We all saw the war happening live on TV.

We all know that Gen. Musharraf sent him off at the airport requesting him to pull his chestnuts out of the fire. We all saw the Tiger hill, Tololing and other peaks being captured by Indian soldiers.

How can something like that (a clear military debacle on top of diplomatic and political one) be spun like this. Would Musharraf allow that to happen? Would the army allow some Shariff to destroy a victory if they thought they could achieve it?

Politicians have been disposed of for much smaller reasons in Pakistan. This seems another fairy tale to keep the folklore alive.

Well we all saw the pleas of Nawas Sharif, we know about the meeting held between Pres. Clinton and PM. Sharif, and we know about the pleas he made to the U.N....

We also know Nawaz Sharif was a coward when it came to Kargil...He supported suspending operations, and supported a cease-fire, he did not want to continue the battle...

President Clinton and Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif depart Blair House following a meeting concerning the tension between Pakistan and India in Washington on Sunday. &#8212; AP/PTI


"WASHINGTON, July 5 &#8212; Pakistan appears to have given a commitment to withdraw its forces from Indian territory in the Kargil sector during marathon talks between US President Bill Clinton and Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, who rushed here amidst mounting international pressure."

Date: Tuesday, July 6, 1999

Source: tribuneindia...Index

P.S many other sources conclude the same information...

 

[Vinod2070]

^^ Yes, and that happened when things started going horribly wrong.

The diplomacy proved as big a part in that as the military situation on the ground.

 

[Kasrkin]

We all saw the war happening live on TV.

We all know that Indian media coverage of the war had been the most unbalanced in modern history.

We all know that Gen. Musharraf sent him off at the airport requesting him to pull his chestnuts out of the fire. We all saw the Tiger hill, Tololing and other peaks being captured by Indian soldiers.

We all know that you are free to take things in the way you like, but we also know that Tiger Hill and some 13 others were the only posts out of a total of 120 that you were able to drive us from through military action. The rest was diplomacy and our civilian leadership's incompetence.

Politicians have been disposed of for much smaller reasons in Pakistan.

This is a generalized, ignorant and stereotypical view people like you have about Pakistan and the Army. The Army had plenty of reason to act against Nawaz Sharif before and after Kargil, including the premature dismissal of a popular Army Chief (Gul Hasan), the much publicized feud with the chief justice, attacks against the press and degradation of the economy, etc. The final straw came when Nawaz Sharif almost got the Army Chief killed and screwed things up beyond repair. Before that Musharraf was NOT inclined to seize power instead he preferred to help NS out in whatever capacity he could, this much is attested by all professional scholars and impartial sources familiar with Musharraf&#8217;s affairs. The military has always acted when it felt the direction of the country&#8217;s long term wellbeing was under threat, not over some successful skirmish the civilian premier messed up. It is arguable even if the military hierarchy discussed the possibility, they would have considered it quite futile not to mention counterproductive internationally when people find out that a spineless &#8220;peace maker&#8221; PM has been swiftly over thrown and his orders withdrawn by the Army in Pakistan in the middle of a potential war. It would have caused great confusion in the rank and file too, withdrawing of relayed orders is always a messy affair in war.

We have accepted facts, learned from our mistakes and moved on. Maybe it is time you do the same and stop deluding yourself over the Indian media coverage you &#8220;saw on TV&#8221; and learn to accept what the ground reality actually was.

 

[Zob]

i seriously feel that indian media is able to make all these gallible people believe what they want them to believe!! the problem is the nation is a bollywood nation they love the sad tragic drama...they cry when sharukh cries...anyhow...firstly just look at 2 things the amount of troops india moved the the front and the amount we put up....it just shows that no matter how hard india tried no matter how many troops it committed it was not enough...so india did one thing say that fine we will attack the whole front.....and nawaz lost his nerve on the indian bluff...but i will tell u something else...no matter what u say we won the war we shot down ur planes we destroyed ur battallions...and since then indian military went hay wire and started the whole crazy military accusations of all the hi-tech things....now my boy call this propaganda!!! don't i sound like a ZEE NEWS anchor...!!

 

[Zob]

arite finally u and me again rajk2000 see my buddy....PAF did not let india get air superiroty in 1965....and our army did let u get 2 LAHORE ur aim....& as for 1971 it was a civil war that u got involved in so that u can use it as a thing to lick ur wounds of 1965 humiliation by a smaller adversary...in 1999 at kargil i doubt we lost... just see how much money of ur war effort was put and that also a ceasfire and withdrawl happened...!! so my friend admit it india never won any war... 1971 was not a victory but india getting involved in a civil war and by allah we will do the same with u in KASHMIR till we get it liberated like u did with bangladesh...so yes we will give u taste of ur own medicine...enjoy boys and wait for us!!

 

[Vinod2070]

We all saw the war happening live on TV.

We all know that Indian media coverage of the war had been the most unbalanced in modern history.

I am sure the Pakistani coverage was the most balanced in history. But then on second thoughts, perhaps not....

We all know that Gen. Musharraf sent him off at the airport requesting him to pull his chestnuts out of the fire. We all saw the Tiger hill, Tololing and other peaks being captured by Indian soldiers.

We all know that you are free to take things in the way you like, but we also know that Tiger Hill and some 13 others were the only posts out of a total of 120 that you were able to drive us from through military action. The rest was diplomacy and our civilian leadership's incompetence.

The diplomacy did play it's part. Not before the military tide had already turned. Decisively.

I know that it gives you comfort to just call the civilians incompetent. You may continue living in that comfort zone. Fact is the military comes from the same society as the politicians and can be as much competent or incompetent as the rest of the society.

Politicians have been disposed of for much smaller reasons in Pakistan.

This is a generalized, ignorant and stereotypical view people like you have about Pakistan and the Army. The Army had plenty of reason to act against Nawaz Sharif before and after Kargil, including the premature dismissal of a popular Army Chief (Gul Hasan), the much publicized feud with the chief justice, attacks against the press and degradation of the economy, etc. The final straw came when Nawaz Sharif almost got the Army Chief killed and screwed things up beyond repair. Before that Musharraf was NOT inclined to seize power instead he preferred to help NS out in whatever capacity he could, this much is attested by all professional scholars and impartial sources familiar with Musharraf’s affairs. The military has always acted when it felt the direction of the country’s long term wellbeing was under threat, not over some successful skirmish the civilian premier messed up. It is arguable even if the military hierarchy discussed the possibility, they would have considered it quite futile not to mention counterproductive internationally when people find out that a spineless “peace maker” PM has been swiftly over thrown and his orders withdrawn by the Army in Pakistan in the middle of a potential war. It would have caused great confusion in the rank and file too, withdrawing of relayed orders is always a messy affair in war.

We have accepted facts, learned from our mistakes and moved on. Maybe it is time you do the same and stop deluding yourself over the Indian media coverage you “saw on TV” and learn to accept what the ground reality actually was.

By all accounts Kargil was a major setback for Pakistan and damaged her "long term wellbeing" as you put it. The LOC became internationally recognized as a de-facto border and Pakistan was considered the aggressor and an irresponsible state by the international community. As bad as it gets!

If the civilians messed up something that was going great guns (during a war no less), it would appear it is a ripe case the military action.

But yes, time to move on while learning the lessons. We did that long back. Good to see you catching up.

 

[Kasrkin]

I am sure the Pakistani coverage was the most balanced in history. But then on second thoughts, perhaps not....

Irrelevant. I’m not the one here quoting what “I saw on T.V” as if it’s a substitute for irrefutable evidence. And the Pakistani media at the time, for all intents and purposes didn’t exist. There was just state run TV, which when you think about it was at least not as ridiculously unprofessional as many of the supposedly ‘impartial’ Indian news media.

Allow me to give you an example. Here are the likes of people which Vinod seems to trust with impartiality so much.

India Today

He is a prized possession. The sight of him motivates the men and gears them for the next round of battle. Seeing him at the make-shift army headquarters in Dras sends their adrenaline pumping. The dead Pakistani Army regular-hung on a tree before his body was buried and a grid reference made on the map in accordance with the Geneva Convention-was a morale booster. More than 439 Pakistani casualties so far.

As you can see the level of professionalism and humanity apparent not only in your soldiers, but your journalists as well. The fact that this made it into print, despite all crappy figures and information it purports, the pure disguising and naked shamelessness and bias would have given most editors reason for thought. But obviously not, this was the ‘impartial’ Indian media at work here in times of war.

Like I said, the sooner you except realities, the better it will be for you. The world is not an Indian movie, and the world is not an Indian ‘news’ channel either.

The diplomacy did play it's part. Not before the military tide had already turned. Decisively.

Hm, you don’t need to be a highly accomplished military tactician to know that 4 divisions with heavy artillery and air support managing to acquire 16 outposts out of a 125+ from a couple of lightly armed paramilitary battalions by the end of a war… is not much of a ‘decisive’ anything. Oh let me guess, irrefutable facts don’t hold much sway over you because you saw “Tiger hill, Tololing and other peaks being captured by Indian soldiers” on your completely impartial TV networks, right? But I’m sure even you must’ve tried to consider the possibility that maybe, just maybe your beloved TV didn’t give you the whole picture?

Let’s see now, 630 Indian soldiers killed. 16 out-posts captured. (Both according to sources the Indian DGMO Lt-Gen V.R. Raghavan calls ‘candid and objective’.)

630 lives = 16 outposts
1 outpost = 40 Indian lives

Wow, that’s not very decisive anything. But I don’t suppose that is the picture you get from your trusty TV, eh?

Provide any impartial evidence to the contrary and we’ll talk about your “decisive victories”. (But then again given your rather loose qualifications for the word ‘impartial’, I’m not sure you’ll produce any)

damaged her "long term wellbeing" as you put it.

LOL, how so exactly, do you reach to that conclusion?

The LOC became internationally recognized as a de-facto border

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the status of the LoC has remained exactly the same before and after the Kargil skirmish. Which is a line dividing the forces of Pakistan and India in an international recognized Disputed Territory. Don’t let your imagine take a leap ahead of reality here. Produce some official international documents that have the words ‘internationally recognized’ and ‘border’ like we have numerous ones declaring internationally recognized Disputed Territory and nothing else. You’ll find none, because Kashmir has always been a DT, and Kargil didn’t change a word, only gave it a whole lot of International attention, something India bemoans.

As bad as it gets!

Like I pointed out, if you’d care to read and switch off that alternative reality of yours for a bit, you’d understand that things could have been MUCH worse. Especially in the prospects of a military coup.

 

[Vinod2070]

I am sure the Pakistani coverage was the most balanced in history. But then on second thoughts, perhaps not....

Irrelevant. I&#8217;m not the one here quoting what &#8220;I saw on T.V&#8221; as if it&#8217;s a substitute for irrefutable evidence. And the Pakistani media at the time, for all intents and purposes didn&#8217;t exist. There was just state run TV, which when you think about it was at least not as ridiculously unprofessional as many of the supposedly &#8216;impartial&#8217; Indian news media.

Allow me to give you an example. Here are the likes of people which Vinod seems to trust with impartiality so much.

India Today

He is a prized possession. The sight of him motivates the men and gears them for the next round of battle. Seeing him at the make-shift army headquarters in Dras sends their adrenaline pumping. The dead Pakistani Army regular-hung on a tree before his body was buried and a grid reference made on the map in accordance with the Geneva Convention-was a morale booster. More than 439 Pakistani casualties so far.

As you can see the level of professionalism and humanity apparent not only in your soldiers, but your journalists as well. The fact that this made it into print, despite all crappy figures and information it purports, the pure disguising and naked shamelessness and bias would have given most editors reason for thought. But obviously not, this was the &#8216;impartial&#8217; Indian media at work here in times of war.

Like I said, the sooner you except realities, the better it will be for you. The world is not an Indian movie, and the world is not an Indian &#8216;news&#8217; channel either.

The diplomacy did play it's part. Not before the military tide had already turned. Decisively.

Hm, you don&#8217;t need to be a highly accomplished military tactician to know that 4 divisions with heavy artillery and air support managing to acquire 16 outposts out of a 125+ from a couple of lightly armed paramilitary battalions by the end of a war&#8230; is not much of a &#8216;decisive&#8217; anything. Oh let me guess, irrefutable facts don&#8217;t hold much sway over you because you saw &#8220;Tiger hill, Tololing and other peaks being captured by Indian soldiers&#8221; on your completely impartial TV networks, right? But I&#8217;m sure even you must&#8217;ve tried to consider the possibility that maybe, just maybe your beloved TV didn&#8217;t give you the whole picture?

Let&#8217;s see now, 630 Indian soldiers killed. 16 out-posts captured. (Both according to sources the Indian DGMO Lt-Gen V.R. Raghavan calls &#8216;candid and objective&#8217;.)

630 lives = 16 outposts
1 outpost = 40 Indian lives

Wow, that&#8217;s not very decisive anything. But I don&#8217;t suppose that is the picture you get from your trusty TV, eh?

Provide any impartial evidence to the contrary and we&#8217;ll talk about your &#8220;decisive victories&#8221;. (But then again given your rather loose qualifications for the word &#8216;impartial&#8217;, I&#8217;m not sure you&#8217;ll produce any)

damaged her "long term wellbeing" as you put it.

LOL, how so exactly, do you reach to that conclusion?

The LOC became internationally recognized as a de-facto border

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the status of the LoC has remained exactly the same before and after the Kargil skirmish. Which is a line dividing the forces of Pakistan and India in an international recognized Disputed Territory. Don&#8217;t let your imagine take a leap ahead of reality here. Produce some official international documents that have the words &#8216;internationally recognized&#8217; and &#8216;border&#8217; like we have numerous ones declaring internationally recognized Disputed Territory and nothing else. You&#8217;ll find none, because Kashmir has always been a DT, and Kargil didn&#8217;t change a word, only gave it a whole lot of International attention, something India bemoans.

As bad as it gets!

Like I pointed out, if you&#8217;d care to read and switch off that alternative reality of yours for a bit, you&#8217;d understand that things could have been MUCH worse. Especially in the prospects of a military coup.

We say that "aankhon dekhi" is the best evidence you have. I am not aware of any other "irrefutable evidence" that you have brought here!

The quote seems to be in bad taste especially for a magazine of India Today's stature. Probably the heat of the war. A link would have made the quote more credible.

Regarding diplomacy, it was always a parallel track to hasten what the military was achieving on the ground. The tide had turned decisively and it was a matter of time before the remaining "ghuspaithias" (infiltrators) were turned out.

It does not matter how many resources we deployed to get them to vacate the land. We would have done whatever it took to get them out. At whatever cost.

I am sure this lesson has been learnt by those who matter.

I see that you have learned funky mathematics from a TT here. Good for you!

A lot has changed about the way the world perceives LOC. De-facto if not de-jure. Deny that all you want but now it is a recognized border in all but name.

PS: Regarding humanity, I hope you have not forgotten the bodies of Lt. Kalia and his troops and in what condition they were sent back! We have not.

In the first fortnight of May 1999, he went out for patrol duty three times in the Kaksar area of Kargil. He observed and reported large-scale intrusion of Pak Army and foreign mercenaries in Indian side of LoC (Kargil). He assumed guard of "Bajrang Post" at the height 13,000-14,000 feet to check infiltration along with 5 soldiers in the Kaksar area.

On May 15, 1999, after a continuous cross fire with Pakistan armed forces from across the LoC, he and his troops ran out of ammunition. It is also believed that their signal instrument was out of order, or not working in those conditions. They were finally encircled by a platoon of Pakistan rangers and captured alive before any Indian reinforcement could reach for their help. No trace of this entire patrol was left and Skardu Radio of Pakistan reported that Lt. Saurabh Kalia and five of his men were captured alive.

They were in their captivity for over twenty-two (May 15, 1999 &#8211; June 7, 1999) days and subjected to unprecedented brutal torture as evident from their bodies handed over by Pakistan Army on June 9, 1999. The postmortem revealed that the Pakistan army had indulged in the most heinous acts; of burning their bodies with cigarettes, piercing ear-drums with hot rods, puncturing eyes before removing them, breaking most of the teeth and bones, chopping off various limbs and private organs of these soldiers besides inflicting all sorts of physical and mental tortures before shooting them dead, as evidenced by the bullet wound to the temple.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saurabh_Kalia

Professionalism and humanity, your style!

 

[chindit]

The quote seems to be in bad taste especially for a magazine of India Today's stature. Probably the heat of the war. A link would have made the quote more credible.

Vinod. i can confirm that INDIA TODAY printed something on the lines, it was also confirmed by another book. But what the Pakistanis fail to notice it was that the dead body was displayed in the initial days when the whole of Pakistan was in denial and all the intruders were tom-tomed to be "Mujahids". even the indian press was refering to them as 'militants'. Someone in the army got a bright idea and hauled a dead regular (with complete uniform and fittings - belt, khaki jacket/sweater, cap etc) down the mountains and put it up in the local brigade HQ for all to see. If there was any convincing that the press needed then that was enough! Once the message was done the body was buried. The indian army estimated that it buried more than 250 dead pakistanis in Indian territories. They took back only three to five bodies.

Displaying bodies of dead terrorists is not a new phenomena. but displaying the bodies of dead soldiers of the opposite side is. But if the Pakistan govt was completely denying their involvement, it left no choice to the army but to show proof.

 

[chindit]

Let’s see now, 630 Indian soldiers killed. 16 out-posts captured. (Both according to sources the Indian DGMO Lt-Gen V.R. Raghavan calls ‘candid and objective’.)

Indian casualities were not more than 540 or so - the list of the martyrs are online on every website. on the other hand, very little has been published about the Pakistani kargil dead other than varying numbers.

 

[chindit]

Stingers in Kargil

Indian Forces captured atleast two Stingers





Does anyone know how many Stingers were deployed by Pakistan in Kargil? How many were fired and how many were lost? or all these still state secrets?

 

[Vinod2070]

Vinod. i can confirm that INDIA TODAY printed something on the lines, it was also confirmed by another book. But what the Pakistanis fail to notice it was that the dead body was displayed in the initial days when the whole of Pakistan was in denial and all the intruders were tom-tomed to be "Mujahids". even the indian press was refering to them as 'militants'. Someone in the army got a bright idea and hauled a dead regular (with complete uniform and fittings - belt, khaki jacket/sweater, cap etc) down the mountains and put it up in the local brigade HQ for all to see. If there was any convincing that the press needed then that was enough! Once the message was done the body was buried. The indian army estimated that it buried more than 250 dead pakistanis in Indian territories. They took back only three to five bodies.

Displaying bodies of dead terrorists is not a new phenomena. but displaying the bodies of dead soldiers of the opposite side is. But if the Pakistan govt was completely denying their involvement, it left no choice to the army but to show proof.

I have read that the extremely brutal, uncivilized and inhuman treatment meted out to Lt. Kalia and his mates at the hand of Pakistani army caused a great deal of anger in the Indian soldiers. This led to the bodies of the intruders being hung from the trees in some cases. It was not to prove that Pakistani army was involved. That was known to all from day-1 in India, the pathetic denials notwithstanding.

Indian army ensured proper Islamic burial for these intruders even after that incident and the refusal of Pakistan to own up to them. This alone should clear any doubts about the issue of "Professionalism and humanity" once and for all!

The military leaders of Pakistan gave a poor account of themselves in the situation and failed to honor those they had sent to death.