Kargil: A Debacle or A Lost Opportunity?

[chindit]

I have read that the extremely brutal, uncivilized and inhuman treatment meted out to Lt. Kalia and his mates at the hand of Pakistani army caused a great deal of anger in the Indian soldiers. This led to the bodies of the intruders being hung from the trees in some cases. .

Read it where? My impression is that Kalias body was returned later into the war. Can we have dates and sources?

 

[duhastmish]

SIR,

i don't know why most post are inclined to what media projected to their following nations.
it was said Pakistan was in better strategic location. they were informed about war earlier. so how cam Pakistan loose more soldiers than us in that war. you should have seen what happened in mahendra garh. how many dead bodies arrived. in this small village near Delhi. Not that these soldier were anywhere less capable to hit pakistan, but because of our top official and politicians. who just bloody sent the (***) regiment without proper planning. thank goodness that sensibility prevailed and India hit back hard, after initial fallback we suffered.

 

[chindit]

SIR,

i don't know why most post are inclined to what media projected to their following nations.
it was said Pakistan was in better strategic location. they were informed about war earlier. so how cam Pakistan loose more soldiers than us in that war. you should have seen what happened in mahendra garh. how many dead bodies arrived. in this small village near Delhi. Not that these soldier wer .

Umm. where exactly is this mahendra garh in delhi? And what is your definition of 'many dead bodies'?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I have read that the extremely brutal, uncivilized and inhuman treatment meted out to Lt. Kalia and his mates at the hand of Pakistani army caused a great deal of anger in the Indian soldiers. This led to the bodies of the intruders being hung from the trees in some cases. It was not to prove that Pakistani army was involved. That was known to all from day-1 in India, the pathetic denials notwithstanding.

Indian army ensured proper Islamic burial for these intruders even after that incident and the refusal of Pakistan to own up to them. This alone should clear any doubts about the issue of "Professionalism and humanity" once and for all!

The 'torture and mutilation' stories were not true - they were propaganda according to several analyses in the Indian media as well.

I had the links bookmarked, but none except one work any more.

The return of six tortured bodies of Indian soldiers by Pakistan on June 10, 1999, is an incident,108 which, in addition to inflaming passions (the perceived force multiplier effect), also revealed the loss of restraint and objectivity in the media. Siddharth Vardarajan observes that:

Virtually every newspaper carried the gory details released by an Indian wire service without waiting for independent confirmation. Such confirmation never arrived…. probably only one of the bodies bore signs of mutilation…109


The issue here is not about the veracity of the torture. To manage emotions and balance them efficaciously with judicious observation is a hallmark of conflict reportage. The semantics of reportage in this case led to a proliferation of exaggerated stories about the mutilation, since certain sections of the media presumed that to contradict or question would appear unpatriotic or anti-national:

All of this is shocking and deeply reprehensible. Nevertheless, it does not amount to mutilation…. But the mutilation story – which so inflamed passions in India – remained in print because we (emphasis added) felt that to contradict the army would be unpatriotic and demoralizing.110


Objectivity, while reporting on terrorism from the theatres of conflict, is at best difficult to approximate, much less, to achieve. Nevertheless, if one regards discovery and disclosure to be

The Media in Terror

A couple of my links were also used in the SATP analysis, but are not workig anymore, nonetheless satp still has them listed under its references for the conclusions it drew.

109: "Lies out of control", www.himalmag.com/99Sep/lies.htm; "Pak sends mutilated bodies ahead of Aziz", Indian Express, June 11, 1999; "Pakistan tortured soldiers, reveals post-mortem report", Financial Express, June 12, 1999; "Torture Finger Pointed at Pakistan Army", Telegraph, June 12, 1999.


110: "Defending the indefensible", Hindustan Times: Latest Breaking News from India, Cricket, Bollywood, World, Business, Videos /nonfram/200899/detOP101.htm.

Resorting to lies and propaganda to malign the PA, and then subsequently allowing those lies and propaganda to 'hang dead bodies from trees' does not in anyway indicate 'professionalism and humanity'.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Vinod. i can confirm that INDIA TODAY printed something on the lines, it was also confirmed by another book. But what the Pakistanis fail to notice it was that the dead body was displayed in the initial days when the whole of Pakistan was in denial and all the intruders were tom-tomed to be "Mujahids". even the indian press was refering to them as 'militants'. Someone in the army got a bright idea and hauled a dead regular (with complete uniform and fittings - belt, khaki jacket/sweater, cap etc) down the mountains and put it up in the local brigade HQ for all to see. If there was any convincing that the press needed then that was enough! Once the message was done the body was buried. The indian army estimated that it buried more than 250 dead pakistanis in Indian territories. They took back only three to five bodies.

Displaying bodies of dead terrorists is not a new phenomena. but displaying the bodies of dead soldiers of the opposite side is. But if the Pakistan govt was completely denying their involvement, it left no choice to the army but to show proof.

Hanging a dead body from a tree was necessary for proving that the body was that of a Pakistani soldier?

Oh please - your don't even believe that BS. If 'showing a dead body' was necessary for 'proving PA involvement' then images of the bodies in the morgue or on the ground would have sufficed. Stringing up a body on a tree only indicates a malicious and dishonorable mind.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

On the body counts - the IA is lying (and perhaps the PA is too).

Given that the the militants/NLI were defending from dug in defenses on peaks, there is no way on earth that PA casualties could have been higher than India's. Salim himself admitted that the 'rule of thumb ratio of losses' (attackers to defenders in mountain combat) was 9:1.

PA losses were likely a few hundred, but there probably is a lot of truth to the story published in India about '3000 coffins being ordered'.

 

[vish]

On the body counts - the IA is lying (and perhaps the PA is too).

Given that the the militants/NLI were defending from dug in defenses on peaks, there is no way on earth that PA casualties could have been higher than India's. Salim himself admitted that the 'rule of thumb ratio of losses' (attackers to defenders in mountain combat) was 9:1.

PA losses were likely a few hundred, but there probably is a lot of truth to the story published in India about '3000 coffins being ordered'.

What are you talking about?

Salim said, and this is widely known, that the required ratio of attackers to defenders in a high altitude mountainous terrain for victory is 11:1. He never said that casualties/losses are in the ratio 11:1 in favor of defenders.

Further, those 3000 coffins were bought to meet the needs of the forces at large. These are used to deliver the bodies of fallen soldiers to their families and, if I'm not wrong, are reused. These are still being used by the forces. India lost 527 men in Kargil.

 

[Vinod2070]

^^ I was about to say the same thing.

Also why did Mr. Sharif, your elected PM of the time openly say that he went to the USA at the prodding of the army and to maintain the folklore, one that is so dear to many: "The army can do no wrong"!

Also he talked about 4000 casualties (mainly in NLI?). I think Pakistan has never done or revealed a detailed inquiry into the Kargil fiasco and so no one knows the real truth.

The fact remains that the mutilation stories were widely believed in India at that time and hanging bodies of some of the "enemies" (those who were not owned up by even Pakistan) would appear to be an angry response in the heat of the war and the inflamed passions, though not one that should be condoned. Even now I don't see any report credible enough to discredit those reports. It is ultimately what you want to believe.

 

[vish]

These are the words of an Indian, not mine exactly. Speaking of which, going over the thread looking for this guys post however lead me to…

It was me. And calling those mass infantry attacks stupid was my wrong.

Where the hell is the "contradiction"? You obviously disbelieve that Operation Vijay was the primary source of the considerable Indian casualties. The Indians lost more than 1150 soldiers in 3 YEARS hard fighting in Sri Lanka, and at Kargil in the matter of weeks the Indian figure was 600 plus. How can you suggest that ‘probing parties’ are the principle cause of this bloated figure?

I disagree that 600 plus people lost their lives in Operation Vijay. We lost 527 men.

Your view is designed to discourage the notion that India lost men during hard-fast head-on decisive fighting in operations launched with over whelming numbers, firepower and definitive objectives of seizing Pakistani positions. It is unlikely that massed infantry attacks were used in ‘probing’ operations, even if it is true to some extent then it represents shocking incompetence. If you experience more resistance than expected and failed to achieve the intended objectives, the mission should not be branded a ‘probing’ operation in an attempt to dilute the failure no matter how tempting that might be.

This would indicate that you are having inconvenience believing that India lost their bulk of men to Pakistani boys in decisively planned confrontations.

You may be right here in that some of these failures may have been branded as probing parties. Also, you are right in that the fight was tough and NLI fought often beyond its means. But the end-result is that you guys lost and withdrew. And yes, IA did loose men in these attacks.

There was immense pressure on India not to widen the conflict, you cannot pretend that India could have launched a full scale war then and crippled Pakistan (which in itself would take considerable time according to the most India-friendly ‘experts&#8217 without severe international repercussions and at the same time justify your military setbacks due to international pressure not to cross the LoC. Not that crossing the LoC and engaging other fresh (regular) Pakistani formations would have benefited IA’s unbalanced and over-committed disposition.

If you were honorable you would admit that in face of the unrealistic and probably futile option of trying to use your already committed forces and equipment to wrestle control of (well defended) logistics routes inside Azad Kashmir from the regular PA formations, the generals and the politicians decided to stick to Occupied Kashmir and receive the international “good will” for using self-proclaimed “restraint”. An Indian Mig was shot down in Pakistani territory, so it’s not like the Indians were particularly careful about provoking us either...fustration was there which I dont deny.

I don’t see how anyone can delude themselves to the gravity of the situation the Indians faced, according to Brian Cloughley in a book the Indian DGMO Gen. V.R. Raghavan says is ‘written by an observant military author who is both candid and objective’, the Pakistanis evacuated from the 14 posts the Indians attacked, while the remaining 120 or so posts were only vacated on orders from across the LoC. Also that Indian casualties would have been ‘very much higher’ had the Pakistanis decided to stay. I just don’t see how bringing the bulk of Pakistani forces into the fray would solve India’s problems. Unless you have any concrete proof to suggest the contrary?

True there was pressure on us, and there was pressure on you guys to stop acting silly every now and then. But had the peaks not fallen in a timely manner, India was willing to go to war.

You are quoting Brian Cloughley... more than enough for me to not chuckle.

It wasn’t a ‘slur’, just an expression. But I can keep it up if you’re glad to hear it so much.

Please continue, proves how worthwhile and orgasmic your neuroplasm is.

Ofcourse I know you have more to lose, i.e. population, economy, investment, etc…

How?

Ofcourse I have nothing to express other than amusement for the uneducated opinions some overly nationalistic Indians have expressed in this thread.

Thank you for clearing the air.

 

[Zob]

ok see the problem here is that indians are very good at one thing BOLLYWOOD NATION....media and fake propaganda played so many times over that it seems like the truth!! about ur some colonel dying and stuff listen i am sure that ur torture is well known to us...like the two hollow civilian bodies we got with nothing in them no organs....and we remeber what u did to our lance naik who was captured in 1971 and u cut his tongue and tortured him to insanity.....indian media is the strongest arm of ur government and i have 2 give them credit for that!! u cry when sharkh cries u bollywood nation!!

 

[Kasrkin]

Regarding humanity, I hope you have not forgotten the bodies of Lt. Kalia and his troops and in what condition they were sent back! We have not.

Professionalism and humanity, your style!

I have read that the extremely brutal, uncivilized and inhuman treatment meted out to Lt. Kalia and his mates at the hand of Pakistani army caused a great deal of anger in the Indian soldiers.

That was known to all from day-1 in India, the pathetic denials notwithstanding.

This alone should clear any doubts about the issue of "Professionalism and humanity" once and for all!

Vinod, I always knew you were little more than a loud mouth enthusiast with little concern for objectivity. But you continue to astound me with your ignorance, and what is even worse is the pathetically primitive mentality that dictates your opinions.

You’ve all but publicly confessed your inclination to believe whatever you see on ‘your TV’, but have you ever concerned yourself with reading a simple book? Or an impartial article even? I mean sure you come here and rant about things as if nothing has ever escaped your knowledge. But your attitude and words seem to indicate otherwise. However worry not, for I shall endeavor to illuminate you and rid you of your character defining arrogance.

Now Brian Cloughley is a widely acknowledged commentator on South Asian affairs and he is appropriately qualified as he has served as the deputy head of the UN mission in Kashmir among other things. He has close contacts in the Pakistani as well as the Indian militaries and his impartiality is beyond dispute. His particular work that I refer to, in the hopes that you might sum up the courage to read this widely distributed book yourself, is described as having “the special advantage of being written by an observant military author who is both candid and objective” by the Indian Director General of Military Operations himself. So therefore, you cannot hope to dispute and discredit its ‘candid and objective’ nature without looking like complete fools yourself. It is irrefutable, and I as a Pakistani won’t get my hands on any evidence more ‘irrefutable’ than that having Indian DGMO’s own shining endorsement.

Furthermore in the hopes of comforting any lingering insecurities here, I would point out that while Cloughley did appreciate the professional competence and inherit valor with which the Pakistanis carried out the Kargil endeavor, he does hold Pakistanis responsible for breaking the terms of the Simla Accords by launching Kargil (just like he accuses the Indians of doing the same in Siachen and skillfully refutes their ‘excuses&#8217. The following extract contains ridiculing of Pakistani as well as Indian claims:

‘The temperature in the mountains is zero and below but has risen markedly in New Delhi and Islamabad, in part because Pakistan reported that Indian has used chemical weapons, and largely because of Indian allegations of torture of prisoners of war. The former claim is nonsense, for many technical reasons, but the accusation of torture in more serious, if only because it has inflamed public opinion in India. There is not an Indian who disbelieves that the half-dozen soldiers whose bodies were delivered to the Indian Army (across the Line from the Pakistani side, to the significance of which little publicity has been given) were tortured and put to death after capture. There is no point in attempting to question the Indian version- although any soldier who has seen the result on a human body of concentrated firing from an ambush will know that the victims resemble pulped and messy colanders of meat, with eyes and teeth shattered and bits of flesh torn away by the lacerating impact of point-blank bullets. It was the fact that eyes had been destroyed – “gouged out” – that particularly upset Indian public opinion.

It has been acknowledged in some quarters in India that the claims were exaggerated, but the damage has been done and it would be a brave Indian commentator who would deny that torture took place.

…and it was easy to believe what was being retailed in the media as a result of statements by government spokesmen. There may have been hesitancy, later, about the truth of the stories, especially as the matter was not taken up by the international media (which would have been more than happy to expand on such a juicy story had they considered it credible), but tales of atrocities are easier to spread than to deny, even if the originator sincerely wishes to do that.

There is terrible irony in the gleeful description in India Today of the body of what might have been a soldier of the NLI.’

Now I knew of this for a long time, through other international sources and articles as well, as did AM obviously and by the looks of it some adequately educated Indians here do too. But you Vinod are obviously part of the crowd that passionately believes in whatever BS the Indian government fed the masses to distract the nation from continuing defeats. But why Vinod, do you feel so drastically obliged to demonize Pakistan? What compels you to convince yourself of fake-righteousness and ignore the real human right abuses and sub-human conduct? Though in all fairness to you, I do applaud what no doubt would have required you to summon monstrous will-power in saying you do not 'condone’ the hanging of dead bodies upside down with ropes. Bravo Vinod.

But unfortunately for you, in an effort to justify your own human right abuses you not only exposed your own ignorance and mentality, but you were also forced to acknowledge (despite trying to deny it first) the inhumane nature of your own troops. If the Pakistanis thought the Indians were using chemical weapons, we didn’t consider deploying nerve gas ourselves and descending to the same level did we? So there were international law breaches in Kargil, and we all know who did it. If we Pakistanis possessed even a fraction of arrogance, vanity, hate and shameless ambition you and large portions of your nation represent, then we would have pursued this further. But we didn’t. Consider this an appropriate answer to some of your unseemly insults to our soldiers, our nation and our honor. For the rest… I don’t want to stoop to your level. But be advised, what you’re doing here (and given the level of your own credibility) can easily be described as trolling. If you can’t talk in the domain of facts and credibility, then don’t throw crap at our faces.

P.S. The figure of 600+ Indian killed, 1800 wounded is accurate.
www.subcontinent.com/sapra/military/kargil11.html quoting the Times of India on 6 and 9 July 1999.
As is the Pakistani figure (perhaps as high as 400).

If 'showing a dead body' was necessary for 'proving PA involvement' then images of the bodies in the morgue or on the ground would have sufficed.

Even that is something only the IA indulges in AM. Dancing around dead bodies and picturing them as trophes. Every soldier knows that picturing the dead is indecent. Pakistan Army never does it. Weapons ought to suffice.

 

[Vinod2070]

I had some respect for you as someone who can possibly debate without getting personal.

That was before this post.

 

[Kasrkin]

Professionalism and humanity, your style!

If you can't finish what you started, not my fault.

 

[Vinod2070]

The same posts were read by both AM and you.

AM came back with his own facts that said why he believed it was not true.

You came back trying to judge my personality!

Vinod, I always knew you were little more than a loud mouth enthusiast with little concern for objectivity. But you continue to astound me with your ignorance, and what is even worse is the pathetically primitive mentality that dictates your opinions.

You may always have known something and I may always have known something. Doesn't matter.

You can have a good debate when you try not to judge the other person and comment about him but about the contents of his posts. I have seen for some time that you find it difficult at times and then instead of the original issue, the mutual bickering takes over which we all should avoid.

I think of myself as an objective person. I go more with facts than opinions something I have seen missing from most Pakistani members (with few honorable exceptions) including you. I am ready to change my opinion if an alternate fact is presented which is creditworthy. I don't think you have been able to present one or you have seriously devalued what you presented because of the way it was done.

AM's post on the other hand was much more effective in conveying the message that he did not find the torture story true based on facts rather than rhetoric.

Anyway you are a good poster overall. Lets keep going. Drop this discussion as it has degenerated to personal attacks (from your side).

 

[Vinod2070]

Professionalism and humanity, your style!

If you can't finish what you started, not my fault.

Please don't assume what I can finish or not.

I presented my facts for my saying that as you accused India for disregarding these based on a media report. I retorted that your record was much worse (and that by the army not some journalist) if those torture reports are to be believed.

I see no need to keep on repeating the same thing or to "finish" it. What would that mean anyway! Would pasting a 100 links for the same story be finishing it!

Or if I prove how the Ghaddafi stadium was used to hold rallies where a severed head (supposedly of an Indian army captain) was shown to delirious crowds (perhaps an LET rally), that would prove it?