Joint Exercise ACES Meet 2017

[mingle]

Yeah he ejected for fun....

http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=94223

I was thinking ur dads name is Shahid sikander reason its only F16 shot at westren borders .

 

[MastanKhan]

Ah come on.



And yet they're here in their super F-15's taking one of the highest ranking Pakistan pilots for a friendship ride in one of those F-15s. The level of untrustworthiness! Ironic, isn't it?



I suppose any one is entitled to his or her opinion. Luckily for all of us, you are just like all the rest of us, nothing more than a forum member giving his opinion.



Amateurs don't usually have an 84 year history flying the 4th largest fleet of F-16s, Rafales (the 1st non-French AF to fly them) Mirage 2000 (also the first to fly them since 1982) and now the first to fly the MiG-35. That really screams of amateurism.



"Stroke of luck"



..............



You have heard?

I'm willing to bet that these same, exact PAF officers whom are professionals and have the same ethics as all other military aviators -- whom they exercise with in tactics that involve killing others before they kill you -- would hold the highest, military standards of respecting other military men and nations. In the military (and especially in the navy and air force), individuals are taught to hold other members of the same profession with the highest regard and respect, let alone their adversaries. The mere fact that your claim shows that these PAF officers would behave in the opposite manner to that, would only suggest 2 things:

1) That it's nothing further from the truth. A blatant lie.
2) That PAF officers are that arrogant and unprofessional. Of course that's not true.

This is not even getting into the unlikeliness that any PAF pilot or crew would utter such nonsense that could be overheard by "someone" who would later, be able to spew that nonsense publicly.

Messiach is a professional---don't take her comments lightly---.

 

[araz]

Absolutely correct and I am glad you kicked that stupid guy's but. As a fellow Muslim, a brother, I am extremely proud of the contribution Egypt had made to the world and Islam. From pyramids to the oldest Islamic university and much more. The Egyptian armed forces are well equipped and well trained, there is no doubt about it and should be coming to PK to show their true colours.

Firstly that is not a guy you refer to but a lady. Looking at her posts she has vast experience with aeronautical engineering so likely to be Ex PAF. I would not be so quick to denegrate others. People in professional capacity often have opjnions contrary to public perceptions and whereas you may or may not agree with them respect them for their services.
As a principal we respect all forces personnel who share their experiences although we often have arguments regarding their statements. I would take the time to read @messiach or @gambit or @Bilal Khan 777 posts before you reply again. You will with a bit of patience and understanding realize why their contributions are respected.
A

 

[CriticalThought]

Sir can a fighter jet with less speed, service ceiling lesser range radar can challenge a high ceiling,more speed jet with superior ECM/Radar in real war scenario.

Here is how it would play out in ideal circumstances. F-15 would use potential energy and kinetic energy superiority to extend the range and increase the lethality of its AMRAAM. The Thunder will close in under complete radio silence guided by AEWAC taking away the radar advantage. Since the SD-10 needs to increase height, the Thunder probably won't launch from nax rabge, thus putting it at disadvantage as well. The Thunder, guided by AEWAC, will close in using evasive tactics. It might cancel the F-15s advantage using numerical superiority as well, but let us concentrate on 1 vs 1. Evasive tactics could mean an approach that is perpendicular to Eagle's vector. The outcome of the first BVR exchange will be determined by the capabilities of SD-10. But given that Thunder has been optimized against SU-30 which could potentially attain similar advantages, it is logical to assume that SD-10 would be up to scratch.

If the first BVR exchange results in a tie, and the Thunder gets close enough to launch WVR forcing Eagle to take evasive action, the Eagle will have to reduce speed to gain maneuverability, drawing it into a gruelling WVR situation. The astute Eagle pilot will look to keep the BVR advantage, while Thunder will look to force it into WVR to take away the potential and kinetic energy advantage. Note that this assumes technological superiority of Eagle's radar at intermediate (50 km) range.

Given so many cases, it could go either way. Which way it actually goes will be determined in the current exercises but unfortunately we will never know the details.

 

[Liquidmetal]

Firstly that is not a guy you refer to but a lady. Looking at her posts she has vast experience with aeronautical engineering so likely to be Ex PAF. I would not be so quick to denegrate others. People in professional capacity often have opjnions contrary to public perceptions and whereas you may or may not agree with them respect them for their services.
As a principal we respect all forces personnel who share their experiences although we often have arguments regarding their statements. I would take the time to read @messiach or @gambit or @Bilal Khan 777 posts before you reply again. You will with a bit of patience and understanding realize why their contributions are respected.
A

I like to think that I have enough manners even in this day and age of trolls and fake news to respect other people's opinions. However, you will agree that no matter the pedigree, if you make generalisations then these will prove to be offensive. What I found offensive was that the OP had covered her own prejudice by quoting un-named sources in the PAF. I have no doubt that a professional body like the PAF would never make such disparaging remarks about a brother armed forces never mind one that is as well equipped and trained as the EgAF. The EgAF should be invited to train with the PAF for better bilateral relations. However, I would like to take this opportunity to withdraw my acerbic comments in my previous post and apologise.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

As a fellow Muslim, a brother, I am extremely proud of the contribution Egypt had made to the world and Islam. From pyramids to the oldest Islamic university and much more. The Egyptian armed forces are well equipped and well trained, there is no doubt about it and should be coming to PK to show their true colours.

The only experience i had with them was, not even worthy of posting.

Egyptian peacekeeping troops at Ivory Coast... smoking sheesha,not doing any grunt work assigned ... and chasing hookers.

And the hookers causing a scene at UN camp... and Pak Army officer (commanding UN peacekeepers) pitchin in to calm the situation down.

Our f16A got shot down in Afghanistan? We had no loses

1 F-16 was shot— friendly fire...

A stray sidewinder I believe hit.

 

[SQ8]

Air Force professionalism is a direct result of its initial operating ethos. The PAF isn’t some all elite pilot force and as such is only somwhat above average in pilot quality in terms of a complete spread.

However, the term average is a relative term depending upon size, modernization,combat experience,inductee quality and training syllabus

By that measure the PAF is fairly high up in terms of its selection pool and process since it has the benefit of a large pool of volunteers due to associated glamour. However, few of these inductees come from established educated backgrounds(discounting children of military personnel )so it does lack representation from what might be a talented resource.

By contrast, the best pilot program which is the IDF/AF actually hunts down the best and brightest out of its education system to groom them- this leads to a very high candidate caliber in all respects.

Next is training/tactics, while the PAF has inherited an ethos for high training and knowledge standards- its basic limitations as being part of an on/off pariah state along with taking on a national induction that invariably includes dishonest individuals of various characteristics- this ethos does not go air force wide. This means that while 20-30% of the PAF may be excellent fliers with a good grip on current technologies and tactics; the remaining are at different levels of skills and morale levels.

Add to the general lost decades of the PAF in terms of modern technology and it has taken a while to update all existing personnel and training syllabus.

As a contrasting example, the UAEAF is now a thoroughly modern air force both equipped and training from top to bottom with the latest technologies and tactics. The difference lies in the qualty and dedication of personnel the AF hires and regardless of the mercenaries/contract pilots (including those from Pakistan) hired in the early decades; the UAEAF is using ethnically “pure” candidates for its newest cadre and their dedication levels are generally considered acceptable.

Lastly, the Indian Air Force too has undergone a massive change in personnel as its newer inductions are docused more on the educated middle class which has led to higher quality candidates. While their middle tier leadership still suffers from a massive brain drain that happened in the 90’s - the newer inductees are both motivated and bright- leaving the general pilot quality much improved.

So clearly the PAF’s boast about personnel quality has to now be taken with a pinch of salt.

 

[Major Sam]

Today, at 04:00 PM PST, I saw 2 F-15s along with 2 JFTs over Sargodha. A dogfight, JFT chasing F-15. After that F-15 came for landing. It is impressive bird. Very smooth and quiet landing, slow speed, less noise as compared to F-16, although it is twin engine jet.



(If anyone wants to ask about pics, should keep in mind that clicking any jet on landing line will land me in safe house with zero clue of myself to my family)

do u live in Sgd.

 

[Raider 21]

1 F-16 was shot— friendly fire...

A stray sidewinder I believe hit.

Sidewinder was sent for a locked-on Soviet MiG-23....the F-16 came in the way of its trajectory as it was chasing another MiG-23...

 

[Jammer]

@Oscar, let me begin by agreeing with the fact that the PAF is not some horde of magical golden warriors, some sort of an elite force. Neither is in my opinion the much venerated IDF-AF, both forces in my opinion have a well established and effective pilot training program and an extremely high standard of selection. In my experience I do not see or understand your implied correlation of "established educated backgrounds" and lack of talented resource. For the overwhelming (I will qualify in a bit) majority, the academic standard set at the academy does not discriminate. So you could be a son of a poor farmer from a tiny village near Kohat having passed your FSC from a nondescript local public school, however, you still have to achieve the same standards as the son of an highly educated family a gentleman cadet from lets say Aitchison college. You don't cut it academically, physically, mentally you wash out. Having said that, have there been instances where some students for one reason or the other have been given another shot or chance, yes. Is that gentle nudge provided to a select few in the IDF, you and I would never know. I talk specifically about the GDP program in the PAF when I say this, these students that need that gentle nudge are one in a million and they are never nudged and supported to the point of blatant stupidity.
Also consider the size of the sample set that the PAF has to choose from when compared to the IDF, without going going into the details it should be clear that the potential talent pool at PAF's disposal is gigantic. Statistics and related sample sets is a funny thing that often comes about in normal conversation in a fairly disconnected and erroneous manner. Some one will say so and so is the best polo player in the country. Now out of the 100 people in the country that can afford to play the game surely this fellow is the best. However, if there is a larger sample set, if the cost of playing polo was dropped so that anyone that can meet the the basic physical requirements of the game can play then I'm not sure the affore mentioned fellow would be the best.
All this mumbo jumbo brings me to the point you make about 20% to 30% of the PAF pilots being excellent fliers with a good grip of current technology and tactics. Without getting into the definition of "excellent" pilot if I were to make up a number of very good fighter pilots based on some tangible evidence I would look at the pass rate at the CCS. Pilots in the PAF like the other established air forces across the world are constantly tested throughout their career, these tests determine there track in the force and in some instances their skill level in the eyes of the brass. The CCS course is a critical step for all fighter pilots in the PAF, to say its rigorous would be polite, you wash out, you'r pretty much done as a fighter pilot. The first step to getting to CCS is to be selected for it, I'd say 5% to 10% are never given the opportunity, once selected I'd say about 90%+ pass the course. These pilots are than potentially able to attain the wing commanders rank. I would therefore make an assumption that at any given moment at all levels of rank 80%+ of the PAF fighter pilot crop can be considered as highly trained professionals, out of these you can say some are just off the chart good. Are PAF pilots as technologically savvy (and the related tactics) as their IDF, USAF, UK and to some extent IAF counterparts, no because of obvious reasons. However, a great majority of them are very good fighter pilots and posses the aptitude to pick up the technology and tactics quickly.

Air Force professionalism is a direct result of its initial operating ethos. The PAF isn’t some all elite pilot force and as such is only somwhat above average in pilot quality in terms of a complete spread.

However, the term average is a relative term depending upon size, modernization,combat experience,inductee quality and training syllabus

By that measure the PAF is fairly high up in terms of its selection pool and process since it has the benefit of a large pool of volunteers due to associated glamour. However, few of these inductees come from established educated backgrounds(discounting children of military personnel )so it does lack representation from what might be a talented resource.

By contrast, the best pilot program which is the IDF/AF actually hunts down the best and brightest out of its education system to groom them- this leads to a very high candidate caliber in all respects.

Next is training/tactics, while the PAF has inherited an ethos for high training and knowledge standards- its basic limitations as being part of an on/off pariah state along with taking on a national induction that invariably includes dishonest individuals of various characteristics- this ethos does not go air force wide. This means that while 20-30% of the PAF may be excellent fliers with a good grip on current technologies and tactics; the remaining are at different levels of skills and morale levels.

Add to the general lost decades of the PAF in terms of modern technology and it has taken a while to update all existing personnel and training syllabus.

As a contrasting example, the UAEAF is now a thoroughly modern air force both equipped and training from top to bottom with the latest technologies and tactics. The difference lies in the qualty and dedication of personnel the AF hires and regardless of the mercenaries/contract pilots (including those from Pakistan) hired in the early decades; the UAEAF is using ethnically “pure” candidates for its newest cadre and their dedication levels are generally considered acceptable.

Lastly, the Indian Air Force too has undergone a massive change in personnel as its newer inductions are docused more on the educated middle class which has led to higher quality candidates. While their middle tier leadership still suffers from a massive brain drain that happened in the 90’s - the newer inductees are both motivated and bright- leaving the general pilot quality much improved.

So clearly the PAF’s boast about personnel quality has to now be taken with a pinch of salt.

 

[SQ8]

@Oscar, let me begin by agreeing with the fact that the PAF is not some horde of magical golden warriors, some sort of an elite force. Neither is in my opinion the much venerated IDF-AF, both forces in my opinion have a well established and effective pilot training program and an extremely high standard of selection. In my experience I do not see or understand your implied correlation of "established educated backgrounds" and lack of talented resource. For the overwhelming (I will qualify in a bit) majority, the academic standard set at the academy does not discriminate. So you could be a son of a poor farmer from a tiny village near Kohat having passed your FSC from a nondescript local public school, however, you still have to achieve the same standards as the son of an highly educated gentleman cadet from lets say Aitchison college. You don't cut it academically, physically, mentally you wash out. Having said that, have there been instances where some students for one reason or the other have been given another shot or chance, yes, is that gentle nudge provided to a select few in the IDF, you and I would never know. I talk specifically about the GDP program in the PAF when I say this, these students that need that gentle nudge are one in a million and they are never nudged and supported to the point of blatant stupidity.
Also consider the size of the sample set that the PAF has to choose from when compared to the IDF, without going going into the details it should be clear that the potential talent pool at PAF's disposal is gigantic. Statistics and related sample sets is a funny thing that often comes about in normal conversation in a fairly disconnected and erroneous manner. Some one will say so and so is the best polo player in the country. Now out of the 100 people in the country that can afford to play the game surely this fellow is the best. However, if there is a larger sample set, if the cost of playing polo was dropped so that anyone that can meet the the basic physical requirements of the game can play then I'm not sure the affore mentioned fellow would be the best.
All this mumbo jumbo brings me to the point you make about 20% to 30% of the PAF pilots being excellent fliers with a good grip of current technology and tactics. Without getting into the definition of "excellent" pilot if I were to make up a number of very good fighter pilots based on some tangible evidence I would look at the pass rate at the CCS. Pilots in the PAF like the other established air forces across the world are constantly tested throughout their career, these tests determine there track in the force and in some instances their skill level in the eyes of the brass. The CCS course is a critical step for all fighter pilots in the PAF, to say its rigorous would be polite, you wash out, you'r pretty much done as a fighter pilot. The first step to getting to CCS is to be selected for it, I'd say 5% to 10% are never given the opportunity, once selected I'd say about 90%+ pass the course. These pilots are than potentially able to attain the wing commanders rank. I would therefore make an assumption that at any given moment at all levels of rank 80%+ of the PAF fighter pilot crop can be considered as highly trained professionals, out of these you can say some are just off the chart good. Are PAF pilots as technologically savvy (and the related tactics) as their IDF, USAF, UK and to some extent IAF counterparts, no because of obvious reasons. However, a great majority of them are very good fighter pilots and posses the aptitude to pick up the technology and tactics quickly.

As I pointed out earlier, you are referring to the production plant.. not the quality of ingredients. Sure, they are good by any standard but not varied nor are they representative of all Pakistanis or talent. By relying on the pool of talent that comes in, you are assuming that somehow they represent all of the best and brightest available with all the potential there is; which they dont- had it been a university based system or a country wide college based system rather than some piss poor ad in obscure newspapers- then it would show that the PAF actually knows what its doing in terms of recruits; so regardless of how well the CCS creates graduates- it is bound by the pool it takes in and the talent it generates is limited ipso facto.

 

[Jammer]

In my opinion and experience the intake is pretty representative of what Pakistan has to offer. Agree to disagree friend.

As I pointed out earlier, you are referring to the production plant.. not the quality of ingredients. Sure, they are good by any standard but not varied nor are they representative of all Pakistanis or talent. By relying on the pool of talent that comes in, you are assuming that somehow they represent all of the best and brightest available with all the potential there is; which they dont- had it been a university based system or a country wide college based system rather than some piss poor ad in obscure newspapers- then it would show that the PAF actually knows what its doing in terms of recruits; so regardless of how well the CCS creates graduates- it is bound by the pool it takes in and the talent it generates is limited ipso facto.

 

[MastanKhan]

I like to think that I have enough manners even in this day and age of trolls and fake news to respect other people's opinions. However, you will agree that no matter the pedigree, if you make generalisations then these will prove to be offensive. What I found offensive was that the OP had covered her own prejudice by quoting un-named sources in the PAF. I have no doubt that a professional body like the PAF would never make such disparaging remarks about a brother armed forces never mind one that is as well equipped and trained as the EgAF. The EgAF should be invited to train with the PAF for better bilateral relations. However, I would like to take this opportunity to withdraw my acerbic comments in my previous post and apologise.

Hi,

It is not a matter about " brother armed forces "----it is about warriors and war fighting machine---.

No kiss ar-se attitude is acceptable when describing the actual capabilities of a military---be it brotherly---or the enemy---.

There is no bilateral relationship with egypt---.

 

[Falcon26]

Hi,

It is not a matter about " brother armed forces "----it is about warriors and war fighting machine---.

No kiss ar-se attitude is acceptable when describing the actual capabilities of a military---be it brotherly---or the enemy---.

There is no bilateral relationship with egypt---. Never trust an egyptian. They are the rudest and most arrogant self centered people.

Wow! Easy man. No need to make prejudiced generalizations.

 

[araz]

In my opinion and experience the intake is pretty representative of what Pakistan has to offer. Agree to disagree friend.

Thank you for showing us all how an argument on a discussion board is stductured. The above posts are why I linger on this board rather than packing my bags and leaving. I think we should all learn from the two of you how to argue and in case of disagreement move on agreeing to disagree. Thank you.
Any force relies on the selection pool, and its training. In my University, three of the top students were from the interior of Sindh with very uneducated backgrounds. They were however very dedicated to their studies and performed a notch above the rest. Even some of the finest produce of Grammer school Karachi could not compete with those three and always came fourth. So background and parental education has little to do with your own talent. The Diamond in the rough will shine irrespective. However to some extent educational background does play a role.
Moral degradation and terpitude also comes from individual ethics and Principals. Here the background does play a role but still is not a necessity. Too much ferromones and not enough personal discipline will lead one down to a path of chasing anyone in a skirt or dopatta.So the subject of morality is a difficult one to fathom.
As to technical skills, you can divide them into 3 groups. The brilliant will shine out and show their talents irrespective. Those are few and far between. The funny thing is this is not necessarily related to educational abilities as some brilliant academicians tend to perform badly in actual practice. The vast majority of what the force choses are a combination of skills and educational aptitude. These have a potential to be converted into very good pilots depending on their dedication. However pressures of earning a livelihood lures some of them away from armed forces into Commercial airlines.
So the subject is a very complicated one and to tackle it in a few lines is doing injustice to it. Anyways have made my contribution to the debate.
Kind regards.