Joint Exercise ACES Meet 2017

[Talon]

Air Force professionalism is a direct result of its initial operating ethos. The PAF isn’t some all elite pilot force and as such is only somwhat above average in pilot quality in terms of a complete spread.

However, the term average is a relative term depending upon size, modernization,combat experience,inductee quality and training syllabus

By that measure the PAF is fairly high up in terms of its selection pool and process since it has the benefit of a large pool of volunteers due to associated glamour. However, few of these inductees come from established educated backgrounds(discounting children of military personnel )so it does lack representation from what might be a talented resource.

By contrast, the best pilot program which is the IDF/AF actually hunts down the best and brightest out of its education system to groom them- this leads to a very high candidate caliber in all respects.

Next is training/tactics, while the PAF has inherited an ethos for high training and knowledge standards- its basic limitations as being part of an on/off pariah state along with taking on a national induction that invariably includes dishonest individuals of various characteristics- this ethos does not go air force wide. This means that while 20-30% of the PAF may be excellent fliers with a good grip on current technologies and tactics; the remaining are at different levels of skills and morale levels.

Add to the general lost decades of the PAF in terms of modern technology and it has taken a while to update all existing personnel and training syllabus.

As a contrasting example, the UAEAF is now a thoroughly modern air force both equipped and training from top to bottom with the latest technologies and tactics. The difference lies in the qualty and dedication of personnel the AF hires and regardless of the mercenaries/contract pilots (including those from Pakistan) hired in the early decades; the UAEAF is using ethnically “pure” candidates for its newest cadre and their dedication levels are generally considered acceptable.

Lastly, the Indian Air Force too has undergone a massive change in personnel as its newer inductions are docused more on the educated middle class which has led to higher quality candidates. While their middle tier leadership still suffers from a massive brain drain that happened in the 90’s - the newer inductees are both motivated and bright- leaving the general pilot quality much improved.

So clearly the PAF’s boast about personnel quality has to now be taken with a pinch of salt.

I think u havent been in touch with PAF's selection and training procedure in recent times..wont say anything else.

 

[SQ8]

I think u havent been in touch with PAF's selection and training procedure in recent times..wont say anything else.

If recent times refers to the last three years.. perhaps

 

[-BAJWA-]

do u live in Sgd.

Yes, I do

 

[Talon]

If recent times refers to the last three years.. perhaps

actually more than that..but yeah people have different views so no arguments.

 

[CriticalThought]

Thank you for showing us all how an argument on a discussion board is stductured. The above posts are why I linger on this board rather than packing my bags and leaving. I think we should all learn from the two of you how to argue and in case of disagreement move on agreeing to disagree. Thank you.
Any force relies on the selection pool, and its training. In my University, three of the top students were from the interior of Sindh with very uneducated backgrounds. They were however very dedicated to their studies and performed a notch above the rest. Even some of the finest produce of Grammer school Karachi could not compete with those three and always came fourth. So background and parental education has little to do with your own talent. The Diamond in the rough will shine irrespective. However to some extent educational background does play a role.
Moral degradation and terpitude also comes from individual ethics and Principals. Here the background does play a role but still is not a necessity. Too much ferromones and not enough personal discipline will lead one down to a path of chasing anyone in a skirt or dopatta.So the subject of morality is a difficult one to fathom.
As to technical skills, you can divide them into 3 groups. The brilliant will shine out and show their talents irrespective. Those are few and far between. The funny thing is this is not necessarily related to educational abilities as some brilliant academicians tend to perform badly in actual practice. The vast majority of what the force choses are a combination of skills and educational aptitude. These have a potential to be converted into very good pilots depending on their dedication. However pressures of earning a livelihood lures some of them away from armed forces into Commercial airlines.
So the subject is a very complicated one and to tackle it in a few lines is doing injustice to it. Anyways have made my contribution to the debate.
Kind regards.

This is what hunting for top talent looks like. My cousin, near the time of completion of her American High School education, started getting letters from USAF inviting her to join. Her step father initially ignored them, but the letters became so insistent and frequent that he actually got scared and sent her back to Pakistan for Bachelors. Some time later he himself packed bags and moved permanently to Pakistan. This is what hunting for talent looks like.

 

[Raider 21]

This is what hunting for top talent looks like. My cousin, near the time of completion of her American High School education, started getting letters from USAF inviting her to join. Her step father initially ignored them, but the letters became so insistent and frequent that he actually got scared and sent her back to Pakistan for Bachelors. Some time later he himself packed bags and moved permanently to Pakistan. This is what hunting for talent looks like.

It happens. Know someone who applied to PAF twice, they turned him down saying he wasn't physically fit enough despite being a tennis player at a university in USA. Joined the Marines, qualified as a naval aviator and eventually flew Hornets. Another distant cousin joined USAFA for astronautical engineering, and that too on encouragement from her dad (former PAF F-6/T-37 driver) due to the opportunities being there.

 

[Talon]

It happens. Know someone who applied to PAF twice, they turned him down saying he wasn't physically fit enough despite being a tennis player at a university in USA. Joined the Marines, qualified as a naval aviator and eventually flew Hornets. Another distant cousin joined USAFA for astronautical engineering, and that too on encouragement from her dad (former PAF F-6/T-37 driver) due to the opportunities being there.

Tennis player...must have been rejected due to Cubitus valgus..PAF's NONAY reject lots of candidates on this basis though this isnt much of an issue in my opinion.

 

[Gomig-21]

General comment not intended for Gomig21 - Good aviators everywhere. Please don't denigrate on the basis of nationality.

That was the whole point of my post to that member.

For Pakistan and Egypt, they need to move beyond the legacy of the Suez Canal invasion. That has left these two powerhouses from cooperating and building on the relations.

Pakistani Marines have been invited several times to exercise Bright Star in Egypt back in the 80's. This was way after any of the wars. What Suez Canal invasion are you speaking of? 1956 was the Brits and French attacking in the northern city of Port Said while the Israelis sneaked into the Sinai, only to see all 3 withdraw in total shame for their criminal acts. Nasser was nationalizing the canal because it belonged to Egypt, not the other 3. The only other time the canal was invaded was in 1973 when the Egyptian army launched the October war and crossed the canal and took control of all the Israeli bunkers and command posts the entire west bank of the canal. Are you referring to that?

Frivolous comm.
Keep these to yourself.

You should take your own advice, now that you've been called out for falsehood. Had you passed it on as your own opinion instead of throwing it on Pakistani pilots, it might not have been as pricey as it ended up being.

Messiach is a professional---don't take her comments lightly---.

I think you meant something else, because that's exactly what I did, I didn't take her comments lightly since they were despicably untrue. I would politely ask you to revisit what she said, but judging from the disparaging comments you've since made about Egyptians, it would most likely be an exercise in futility.

Firstly that is not a guy you refer to but a lady. Looking at her posts she has vast experience with aeronautical engineering so likely to be Ex PAF. I would not be so quick to denegrate others. People in professional capacity often have opjnions contrary to public perceptions and whereas you may or may not agree with them respect them for their services.
As a principal we respect all forces personnel who share their experiences although we often have arguments regarding their statements. I would take the time to read @messiach or @gambit or @Bilal Khan 777 posts before you reply again. You will with a bit of patience and understanding realize why their contributions are respected.
A

I've known @gambit since 2009/2010 from another forum. I've had several discussions with him and even disagreements, but what's more relevant is that even with his occasionally harsh criticisms, he never lies or inserts his opinion and tries passing them on as fact. He always supports his arguments with undeniably persuasive material, not opinions and certainly not made-up, derogatory insults. That's the big difference in someone like him and other pros like @jhungary etc. With these people, you can tell in 2 or 3 sentences that they truly are who they say they are and they never lie about experiences. As a matter of fact, they have come out and said who and what they are and have backed it up with proof, not heresay. This other member's position is nothing but speculation, even by your admission. I don't know about the 3rd username member you mentioned, but I can tell you for certain, the comments that were made by this supposed aeronautical or possibly ex-Pak individual reeked of nothing but untrue, biased and ignorant opinions that were being passed on as facts -- for what appears to be a pretty obvious reason -- which when you stop and think about it for a minute, was actually not only insulting and totally nonfactual about the Saudi and Egyptian military but in reality, it reflected negatively on Pakistani Air Force pilots. This was the immediate give-away. If you've ever been around military aviators of any type, they kid around about other military groups be it within their own armed forces or others, but it's always done in fun and busting chops and friendly one-upmanship, not the rubbish that was brought up. Their behavior is based on military air force discipline which is of the highest order, nothing to do with their abilities as pilots. So let's see, Pakistani pilots...IN SAUDI ARABIA... are yacking about shooting down Saudi pilots blindfolded to a supposed, unknown, ex-Pak aeronautical something or other, who's now on a forum talking about these Pakistani pilots behaving like high school children? You see any truth to that, or are they just made up fantasies based on biased opinion looking for attention and acceptance?

What I found offensive was that the OP had covered her own prejudice by quoting un-named sources in the PAF.

Of course. Hard to believe there's even any semblance of agreement to those despicable lies. That prejudice and lying was very easy to spot.

The only experience i had with them was, not even worthy of posting.

Yet you did! Twice that I know of! Let me ask you; do you think that's indicative of the entire armed forces? Did the actions of the US soldiers in Abu Ghreb reflect on the entire US Army, Marine Corp and Navy? I think we can agree that there are a few bad apples in every group. Sometimes when a story like that is repeated, one can tend to believe there is an agenda behind it. Hope that's not the case. BTW, my father was 25 years with the United Nations, administrative level, and 2 of those years in Pakistan.

By contrast, the best pilot program which is the IDF/AF actually hunts down the best and brightest out of its education system to groom them- this leads to a very high candidate caliber in all respects.

Not sure why you consider it the best program. They follow the same recruitment process as the USAF.

Hi,

It is not a matter about " brother armed forces "----it is about warriors and war fighting machine---.

No kiss ar-se attitude is acceptable when describing the actual capabilities of a military---be it brotherly---or the enemy---.

There is no bilateral relationship with egypt---.

I'm glad you edited your comment, because that was truly a disgusting thing you said.

 

[The Eagle]

Army chief visits PAF Mushaf, witnesses multinational exercise

RAWALPINDI: Chief of Army Staff General Qamar Javed Bajwa on Thursday visited Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Mushaf airbase and witnessed the ongoing multinational exercise at the recently established Air Power Centre of Excellence (ACE).

The exercise, ACES meet 2017, has the participation of the Royal Saudi Air Force and the Turkish Air Force, with observers from eight other countries. The two-week long exercise started on October 16, said a statement from the Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR).

The army chief was briefed on the ACE facility and the scope of the exercise, which is aimed at mutual cooperation between air forces and to consolidate upon modern concepts in the domain of counter-terrorism, added ISPR.

Addressing the occasion, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman said that the existing global security scenario coupled with changing dynamics of warfare calls for an enhanced partnership among nations and their armed forces.

The air chief added that the establishment of PAF ACE was a strategic initiative for developing a unique institution to share experiences of PAF with friendly air forces gained during counter-terrorism operations. He further said that air operations have to remain in sync with land operations to make decisive gains on the ground.

General Bajwa thanked the PAF for the opportunity to see the exercise and acknowledged PAF's contributions and support in the fight against terrorism. COAS hailed operational readiness and professional expertise of the PAF, further said ISPR.

Upon arrival at base, the army chief was received by Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman. Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Zafar Abbasi, defence attachés of various countries and other senior officers from the three services.

 

[blain2]

That was the whole point of my post to that member.



Pakistani Marines have been invited several times to exercise Bright Star in Egypt back in the 80's. This was way after any of the wars. What Suez Canal invasion are you speaking of? 1956 was the Brits and French attacking in the northern city of Port Said while the Israelis sneaked into the Sinai, only to see all 3 withdraw in total shame for their criminal acts. Nasser was nationalizing the canal because it belonged to Egypt, not the other 3. The only other time the canal was invaded was in 1973 when the Egyptian army launched the October war and crossed the canal and took control of all the Israeli bunkers and command posts the entire west bank of the canal. Are you referring to that?

I was referring to the 56 crises.

 

[SQ8]

It happens. Know someone who applied to PAF twice, they turned him down saying he wasn't physically fit enough despite being a tennis player at a university in USA. Joined the Marines, qualified as a naval aviator and eventually flew Hornets. Another distant cousin joined USAFA for astronautical engineering, and that too on encouragement from her dad (former PAF F-6/T-37 driver) due to the opportunities being there.

That shows proactive talent searching rather than a bias for military kids.. otherwise pudgy A-5 drivers wont exist. A focused search pool which is where you get exceptional leadership qualities from rather than counting on this small town or military kid pool.

As an alternate example, these same MI intel jackasses whose paranoia and low IQ leads to such rejections- let a KNOWN Hizb ut Tahrir & TTP sympathizer into the JF-17 manufacturing facility due to a certain skill set needed because they cant see stuff beyond the filled forms.

Not sure why you consider it the best program. They follow the same recruitment process as the USAF.

Really?
I guess the thousand articles on this unique recruitment process must be all lies since you’re the only one who knows the true story.

 

[Raider 21]

Tennis player...must have been rejected due to Cubitus valgus..PAF's NONAY reject lots of candidates on this basis though this isnt much of an issue in my opinion.

Nope....they didn't mention why. Still managed to get a fighter slot with the Marines with 3 deployments, including one a carrier. If he had Cubitus Valgus, the Marines wouldn't have selected him for flight training.

Not sure why you consider it the best program. They follow the same recruitment process as the USAF.

USAF have a very different recruitment system compared to the IDF/AF.

 

[MastanKhan]

That was the whole point of my post to that member.



Pakistani Marines have been invited several times to exercise Bright Star in Egypt back in the 80's. This was way after any of the wars. What Suez Canal invasion are you speaking of? 1956 was the Brits and French attacking in the northern city of Port Said while the Israelis sneaked into the Sinai, only to see all 3 withdraw in total shame for their criminal acts. Nasser was nationalizing the canal because it belonged to Egypt, not the other 3. The only other time the canal was invaded was in 1973 when the Egyptian army launched the October war and crossed the canal and took control of all the Israeli bunkers and command posts the entire west bank of the canal. Are you referring to that?



You should take your own advice, now that you've been called out for falsehood. Had you passed it on as your own opinion instead of throwing it on Pakistani pilots, it might not have been as pricey as it ended up being.



I think you meant something else, because that's exactly what I did, I didn't take her comments lightly since they were despicably untrue. I would politely ask you to revisit what she said, but judging from the disparaging comments you've since made about Egyptians, it would most likely be an exercise in futility.



I've known @gambit since 2009/2010 from another forum. I've had several discussions with him and even disagreements, but what's more relevant is that even with his occasionally harsh criticisms, he never lies or inserts his opinion and tries passing them on as fact. He always supports his arguments with undeniably persuasive material, not opinions and certainly not made-up, derogatory insults. That's the big difference in someone like him and other pros like @jhungary etc. With these people, you can tell in 2 or 3 sentences that they truly are who they say they are and they never lie about experiences. As a matter of fact, they have come out and said who and what they are and have backed it up with proof, not heresay. This other member's position is nothing but speculation, even by your admission. I don't know about the 3rd username member you mentioned, but I can tell you for certain, the comments that were made by this supposed aeronautical or possibly ex-Pak individual reeked of nothing but untrue, biased and ignorant opinions that were being passed on as facts -- for what appears to be a pretty obvious reason -- which when you stop and think about it for a minute, was actually not only insulting and totally nonfactual about the Saudi and Egyptian military but in reality, it reflected negatively on Pakistani Air Force pilots. This was the immediate give-away. If you've ever been around military aviators of any type, they kid around about other military groups be it within their own armed forces or others, but it's always done in fun and busting chops and friendly one-upmanship, not the rubbish that was brought up. Their behavior is based on military air force discipline which is of the highest order, nothing to do with their abilities as pilots. So let's see, Pakistani pilots...IN SAUDI ARABIA... are yacking about shooting down Saudi pilots blindfolded to a supposed, unknown, ex-Pak aeronautical something or other, who's now on a forum talking about these Pakistani pilots behaving like high school children? You see any truth to that, or are they just made up fantasies based on biased opinion looking for attention and acceptance?



Of course. Hard to believe there's even any semblance of agreement to those despicable lies. That prejudice and lying was very easy to spot.



Yet you did! Twice that I know of! Let me ask you; do you think that's indicative of the entire armed forces? Did the actions of the US soldiers in Abu Ghreb reflect on the entire US Army, Marine Corp and Navy? I think we can agree that there are a few bad apples in every group. Sometimes when a story like that is repeated, one can tend to believe there is an agenda behind it. Hope that's not the case. BTW, my father was 25 years with the United Nations, administrative level, and 2 of those years in Pakistan.



Not sure why you consider it the best program. They follow the same recruitment process as the USAF.



I'm glad you edited your comment, because that was truly a disgusting thing you said.

Hi,

I read what she said tongue in cheek---. Those---who have experienced it---know very well what she was saying---.

I speak out of experience in working with them---and also thru colleagues who have worked with them---and truly---the picture is not very "polite".

For me---what messiach says---I am listening to the content of what she wants to deliver---and she made the point very clear---.

 

[Windjammer]

COAS visited PAF Base Mushaf and witnessed the ongoing Multinational Exercise.

 

[GriffinsRule]

From left to right, it looks like the participants and observers include UAE, Russia, Germany, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Turkey, Egypt, Uzbekistan, and Lebanon. Good to see Russian flag there but expected more to be there. Still not a bad start for the first year.
Also surprising to the Uzbeks there but not Azerbaijan as they were interested in JF-17 at some point.