Jinnah VS A.Kalam Azad

[Rig Vedic]

But as if a simple middle finger to the Muslims and their presence and rule over the Indian Subcontinent have been flushed down the drain. The only thing left for them to identify with are representations of them as Terrorists, Gangsters and the occasional sidekick..

The irony is that Jinnah's grandfather was himself a Gujarati Hindu.

Jinnah believed that by getting converted, he now belonged to a different civilization in conflict with his pre-conversion civilization.

 

[Vinod2070]

Epic , just EPIC !

I felt it was more in the nature of personal attack.

Anyway, it has always befuddled me how just a second generation convert (that Mr. Jinnah was) could totally forget his own identity of tens of thousands of years and assumed that of the invaders!

The Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs, litterateurs. They neither intermarry nor interdine together and, indeed, they belong to two different civilizations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions. Their aspect on life and of life are different. It is quite clear that Hindus and Mussalmans derive their inspiration from different sources of history. They have different epics, different heroes, and different episodes. Very often the hero of one is a foe of the other and, likewise, their victories and defeats overlap. To yoke together two such nations under a single state, one as a numerical minority and the other as a majority, must lead to growing discontent and final destruction of any fabric that may be so built for the government of such a state.

I can understand that conversion can change your faith system.

Does it change your history?

The obvious answer is: It doesn't and leads to the identity crisis that we can all see at display.

The only way to sustain the charade is to go ever deeper into the pits of hatred towards your real identity and fake ever more to be what you are not.

Always running just to stand where you are.

Does it work: by all indications, it is a spectacular failure.

 

[jha]

I am a huge supporter of Jinnah's policies. Just love the debates in pakistan about Aug'11 Speech.
cant imagine areas like FATA in my country. Dont want to imagine people like Sami-ul-Haq as president of Defence Council for India. Jinnah got what he wanted and deserved. may he rest in piece..

 

[Vinod2070]

BUT.. when it comes to the exertion of a voice.. the seat of power..The co-existence is impossible unless one side is completely suppressed.

Like you have done in Pakistan? By totally suppressing the Hindus?

And now you are forced to assume that the other side has to have the same low standards and the same sense of morality (or lack thereof).

 

[KS]

I am a huge supporter of Jinnah's policies. Just love the debates in pakistan about Aug'11 Speech.
cant imagine areas like FATA in my country. Dont want to imagine people like Sami-ul-Haq as president of Defence Council for India. Jinnah got what he wanted and deserved. may he rest in piece..

I LOLed....

 

[jbond197]

Dude ..we've had a Hindu Chief Justice.. so what?

Hindu Chief justice proves what?? Nothing, as even with Hindu Chief Justices, Hindu girls are forcefully & openly kidnapped and converted.. No one raise a voice.. And Hindus can not because if they do then they will be killed in the name of blasphemy..

The population is increasing because people like to have sex.. its nothng to do with them being Muslims.

On the other hand, it seems Hindus in Pakistan stopped liking sex or it could be that their girls and families were kidnapped and converted on gun points. Now if you ask me - does that have anything to do with Muslims? then my answer will be - Yes, Muslims are doing the deed to which even the educated Muslims have turned blind eyes.

What is the president's actual governing power apart from being head of state..
We've had martial law presidents.. who actually could do something.. not that it was legal..
but in an actual democratic setup that India is.. what is a president if nothing more than a "showpiece" for the people.

Indian Muslim Presidents have had enjoyed much more power and respect than any of the Pakistani Muslim president any day.. So what are Pakistani Muslim PM/president?? Aren't they just showpieces or do they have any governing power in the country of Muslims?

My mother's uncle is in politics in UP dude.. he babbles on how he is sidetracked all the time due to both religious and racial reasons....how he doesn't actually have power..

Stop BSing!! That's a white lie.. Muslim leaders actually are very strong in the state.. I don't know which area your Mom's uncle is from? But Muslim leaders from Azamgarh, Aligarh, Meerut, Agra, Muzzafar Nagar, Moradabad and many other cities are actually big time goons and forms a big support base for both SP and BSP. So stop talking about marginalization.. These goons infact holds strong positions in SP & BSP. And it is a fact that for some weird reason, Muslims in UP only elect a goon and a normal Muslim leader are shown the door.

Look at your own Kerala.. Muslims actually developed some sort of an identity there..
why was one section so successful but the rest could not match it.?
Majority perhaps?

Education is the reason not the Majority.. But you know what we can not really help those who don't want to help themselves. If the community decides to vote for goons for religious reasons then god only can help them.. In Kerala that's not the scenario, people vote for righteous or not the established goons.

And you are mistaken if you think Kerala is Muslim majority.. It is Hindu majority state and that's the main reason it is peaceful

 

[Vinod2070]

Here you again.. bringing in racial oppression and national identity issues to divert from a topic on religious identity.
What religious identity , cultural carry over do Indian Muslims have?
The Arjun? the Sharuya? the Agni? the Arihant? there are all parts of ancient pre-Islamic culture..

They even have separate Muslim laws governing their civil affairs. Nowhere else in the world you will find it in any non Muslim majority country.

This even when our constitution prefers a uniform civil law.

But as if a simple middle finger to the Muslims and their presence and rule over the Indian Subcontinent have been flushed down the drain. The only thing left for them to identify with are representations of them as Terrorists, Gangsters and the occasional sidekick..

There was no "Muslim rule". There was the rule by some bigot invaders and that was kicked out.

No native Muslim from all of the subcontinent was ever a ruler of any part of India. They were the subjects as much as any others.

Just like the Christians from the subcontinent don't consider themselves the rulers or inheritors of the British rule, Muslims should see the obvious.

And to add insult to Injury(not that they'll ever notice since they are too must trying to scream Vande mataram so that they fit in).. "Muslim" showboy actors are asked to play such roles.. perhaps a sweetner in the form of representations as lovers(mostly Muslim girls), Middle class extras and the ever growing usage of sacred spiritually oriented scripture degenerated as romantic or ridiculous expression.

Whining...

No one is forced to sing Vande mataram. Your concern seems to be why we Hindus don't act like Dhimmis. That is the only way to satisfy you (temporarily). I doubt even that will work for long.

Hence the fact that it was not tolerable.. the idea of having Muslims actually being meaningful in the Indian state.

It is not tolerable to those who derive their raison d'atre from the two nation theory.

And that is you guys.

Again.. the idea is not that Hindus and Muslims cannot co-exist.. they can.. they do .. all over the world.. in communities where neither has a say in policies.

An extension of the justification of TNT which you need every living second.

 

[jbond197]

I felt it was more in the nature of personal attack.

Anyway, it has always befuddled me how just a second generation convert (that Mr. Jinnah was) could totally forget his own identity of tens of thousands of years and assumed that of the invaders!

Such personal attacks as in the OP on A. Kalam Azad by Jinnah, were in fact out of frustration for not being able to achieve the desired results his Muslim Industrialists & landlord clientele wished for..

Out of desperation, he first called names for likes of Kalam and Abdul Gaffar Khan, before finally giving call for turning streets red..

 

[Vinod2070]

Look at your own Kerala.. Muslims actually developed some sort of an identity there..
why was one section so successful but the rest could not match it.?
Majority perhaps?

Someone already pointed out that Muslims in Kerala are no more in population ration than in UP.

So you answered it yourself. The state of India provides the same opportunities, the Muslims of UP are more backward in their social attitudes and that reflects in the indicators.

Even they are doing better than the average Pakistani Muslims on most indicators though!

 

[KS]

Your concern seems to be why we Hindus don't act like Dhimmis.

Precisely.

And you can see that mindset so clearly when the familiar canard of "for 1000 years, we ruled you" pop up every now and then. The TNT , IMO did not arise due to any genuine concerns..the Muslim elites of Lucknow and Bihar understood that they would not be able to rule over the country like the kings did once the British left and that their community would not be able to compete with Hindus one on one either in education or economics.

Solution - get our own country where we could rule. But it seems the Panjabi landlords had an altogether different plan for them. A proverbial anti-climax for them.

 

[Vinod2070]

Anyway, the two nation theory and the creation of Pakistan and all that it entailed, all that mean that they have no right to demand the things they are demanding of India.

It was a permanent event. It demonstrated forever to the world what conversion to Islam means to your sense of history, identity and nationalism.

The theory if extrapolated means that Muslims can't be the same nation as any other religious people. They will always be a nation unto themselves and that will drive their sense of loyalty.

And we can all see it in action everywhere.

We see many of the same proponents of two nation theory go out to non Islamic countries though. They are not able to integrate anywhere and remain "alienated".

It was a good theory and it was true for those who believed in it.

We are both happy to be rid of each other and the logical next step is not obsess with each others' internal affairs and not make ridiculous demands on each other.

Our demand is simple: Stop sending the "non state actors" and stop comparing yourself to us. You are part of the "Islamic ummah" (whatever that means) and should compare yourself to Afghanistan, Iran, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan and so on.

They are your people now. We share nothing now if ever we did.

Precisely.

And you can see that mindset so clearly when the familiar canard of "for 1000 years, we ruled you" pop up every now and then. The TNT , IMO did not arise due to any genuine concerns..the Muslim elites of Lucknow and Bihar understood that they would not be able to rule over the country like the kings did once the British left and that their community would not be able to compete with Hindus one on one either in education or economics.

Solution - get our own country where we could rule. But it seems the Panjabi landlords had an altogether different plan for them. A proverbial anti-climax for them.

Well, you are right of course.

I have one phrase for them and I see the same thing too often.

They were too clever by half.......

For their own good.

And we are glad we are rid of them. Permanently.

 

[jbond197]

The Arjun? the Sharuya? the Agni? the Arihant? there are all parts of ancient pre-Islamic culture..

All the above names and their significance are very much current and are part of thriving Hindu culture. I don't know what exactly you meant by ancient Pre-Islamic culture. As a matter of fact, this culture was thriving when Islam was not born and it is there on its feet today and it will be standing upright much longer after few other hateful culture disappears..

 

[shree835]

I Don thinks A.Kalam Azad needs anyone's certificate... He was a Legend...And We INDIANs respect them a lot...leaving in denial is not going to change the fact.

 

[acetophenol]

Epic , just EPIC !

which book is that?

 

[Rig Vedic]

Our demand is simple: Stop sending the "non state actors" and stop comparing yourself to us. You are part of the "Islamic ummah" (whatever that means) and should compare yourself to Afghanistan, Iran, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan and so on.

For one thing it is impossible to get rid of the pre-Islamic heritage ... they would have to stop speaking Punjabi, Sindhi and Urdu.

Secondly one's sense of identity is a personal matter, and it can change over time, as one learns more.

So we should not make blanket prescriptions for entire populations of nations. You can't put Jinnah and Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan in the same category.

It is not possible to divorce a section of South Asia from its history, no matter how hard some people may try. This is an internal issue of the Indian subcontinent, and will be resolved within the Indian subcontinent. In the long run, truth will prevail (Satyameva Jayate), as it always does.