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Jinnah VS A.Kalam Azad

To compare the merchant muslims of Bosnia to Indian Muslims is an insult to Indian Muslims my friend.

Muslims in undivided India were Martial people who ruled India for over 1000 years. Why did we become so scared of being a huge 40% minority.

I can assure you 40% Muslims would not have faced any discrimination. Forty Percent of Population can bring the govt wheels to a screeching halt.

And that is all Maulana Azad was trying to point out.

Because we were an uneducated, impoverished 40 percent with massive ethno-linguistic differences amongst us. How often does it happen that Muslims come to unanimous agreements? Punjabis, Sindhis, Pashtuns have so many arguments, forget having Tamil, Bengali Muslims in there as well with whom we have little or nothing in common other than religion. In short we would have just been an unorganized, anpar 40 percent at the mercy of Hindu elites. These times arent "martial" times anymore. The rich and well educated rule the world today. Let me give you a personal example. My grandfather graduated from Punjab University in the 1920s. Of the 40 something students in his graduation picture he is the only muslim. This tells you the state we were in then. Despite all of Pakistans massive errors and failures we can move forward as a nation and inshallah correct these errors as a proud independent Muslim nation.
 
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Because we were an uneducated, impoverished 40 percent with massive ethno-linguistic differences amongst us. How often does it happen that Muslims come to unanimous agreements? Punjabis, Sindhis, Pashtuns have so many arguments, forget having Tamil, Bengali Muslims in there as well with whom we have little or nothing in common other than religion. In short we would have just been an unorganized, anpar 40 percent at the mercy of Hindu elites.

..and you think Hindus are a well organised homogenous unit?
 
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..and you think Hindus are a well organised homogenous unit?

Of course not, but the Muslims being the poorer, less educated community and a minority on top of that would be at the mercy of Hindu elites. I wish the best for India with its secular project, i genuinely do, but for men like Jinnah they saw beforehand that things dont always stay rosy. One small spark and all hell can break loose between the religious groups. partition, Gujrat 2002, Sikh temple are all examples of how fast small events can escalate into something massive. Azad believed in his ideals, fair enough, but for me what Jinnah did (with the aid of Nehru and his centralized policies) has meant the Muslims of the north west are masters of their own fate.
 
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Source plz,title of the book??

Yes that is what I was thinking.

I have yet to see any great leaders of the world talking like a bigot and openly offending one religion to convince a person by giving him sake of the same religion both belong to.

OP has started that thread to show some kind of positivity on Mr. Jinnah but it has ended up doing the contrary.

To me jinnahs outburst depicts his arrogance.COuldnt he have argued reasonably without making personal attacks.

You men he was trolling ? ;)
 
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Som Anand provides some clues in this regard.
He remarks that the Hindu and Muslim communities, ‘lived like two streams, flowing side by
side but never meeting at any point’.69 He dilates further:

To keep themselves away from the Muslims’ “polluting touch”, the Hindus had set-up
many barriers in their daily life. My mother, for example, would never allow any Muslim to
enter her kitchen. No cooked food was accepted from them. I remember how, if any of our
Muslim neighbours even sent any special dish for my father, it never went beyond the dining
table, a place where she did not take her own food. While eating she would never allow any of
her Muslim friends or neighbours to touch her. During my childhood such inhibitions were
generally not observed by male members of educated Hindu families. (Women have always
been more conservative in these matters.) Some decades earlier these rules formed a strict
code of conduct for all, no matter how educated or enlightened a person might be….

The absurdities of such Hindu restrictions notwithstanding, the Muslims had come to
accept them as a law of nature. Their older generation knew the limits of a relationship with
the Hindus and considered it improper even to offer them drinking water from their
utensils…. The Hindus have always complained of Muslim fanaticism but they have never
understood that the walls they raised around themselves could have not resulted in any other
attitude….
It took many centuries for the Hindus of Punjab to realise how absurd and harmful
their anti-Muslim prejudices were. In this respect the first current of change was felt during
the Khilafat movement in the early twenties. Though the spirit of Hindu-Muslim amity
received many reverses in later years, at the social level the urban elite had changed its code
of conduct for the better. This was due, in part, [to] Western education. What this change
meant was evident in my father’s attitude. When he was young, my mother used to recall, he
would come back to change his clothes if a Muslim had touched him while walking in the
bazaar; but during my childhood in Model Town, father had several Muslim friends and he
considered my mother’s inhibitions a sign of backwardness

The economic basis of communal violence

The economic structure in Lahore surely compounded the social cleavages. Yunas Adeeb
writes, ‘ The Hindus dominated money lending, import and export of cloth, the business in
gold and silver and in food-grain…. The Muslims worked outside Lahore city in the fields.
They cultivated vegetables and wheat, and most were craftsmen and artisans’.71


http://www.sacw.net/partition/june2004IshtiaqAhmed.pdf
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The socio economic structure of the British India was such that even in majority muslim areas, the Muslims were the labourers, peasents and the Hindus were the well off businessmen. The only rich Muslim community was the landed aristocracy who made just a fraction of the total Muslim populace. This in itself should help Pakistanis realize what freedom they live in now. Yes the country is one unorganized mess but at least we know that we wont be stopped from climbing up the social ladder on the basis of our religion.
 
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both M.A Jinnah & Maulana Abul kalam azad were great men worthy of admiration & respect , now going back to history whether we like it or not but their was an issue of Hindu-Muslim conflicts & the legitimate concerns of the Muslims regarding the balance of power & fear of a majority domination ( i mean you cannot have the Muslim league & the Congress sit side by side with out accommodating the concerns & fears of the other ) & thats were the cabinet mission plan came into the spectrum , a set up in which India would be united to which both Jinnah & Gandhi had agreed but Nehru & Patel did not, plus the ideological difference's between Jinnah & Azad was not the main problem here & as i pointed out it was the rejection of the cabinet mission plan by Nehru instigated by Patel when both Quaid e azam Mohamed Ali Jinnah & Mahatma Gandhijee had agreed to it, but it was none other then Nehru & Patel who hold on to their stubbornness of a centrist state craft policy while the cabinet mission plan was all about a federation oriented form of statecraft under which India would be united as well as the concerns of the Muslims would be addressed, so i don't see from where does Maulana Azad & Mohamed ALI Jinnah's political differences could have played any role in the partition. as i said both were great men of integrity & honor & i respect them as elders. lets keep the problem where it was & it was the failure of the cabinet mission plan & we all know who was behind it
 
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Im sure gentleman's soul would be repenting on his miscalculations -- after Babri Mosque - Gujrat massacres - Kashmiri mass graves. I am sure if he was alive today he would have no shame in saying that in the battle of Two Nation Theory VS Hindu Muslim Unity theory -- later is totally failed - it was bound to.

Dude: not going into the creation of Pakistan, of which I am a big supporter, Jinnah would be spinning at 10000 RPM in his grave if he were to see Pakistan today and how the Muslims are killing Muslims at a much much bigger rate than Hindus are killing Muslims in India.

So let's go easy. There is no need to criticize one to praise other.
 
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What religious identity , cultural carry over do Indian Muslims have?
The Arjun? the Sharuya? the Agni? the Arihant? there are all parts of ancient pre-Islamic culture..
But as if a simple middle finger to the Muslims and their presence and rule over the Indian Subcontinent have been flushed down the drain. The only thing left for them to identify with are representations of them as Terrorists, Gangsters and the occasional sidekick..

Do you realize while criticizing Azad for being a showman you are actually asking for the same "showman"ship from India by asking us what names we have kept for our weapons ?

And I'm damn sure if we had indeed kept some Islamic names then that would have been dismissed as "showmanship". Either way you people will say the same.

We dont indulge in gimmicks like Pakistan by naming our weapons after looters/invaders who did nothing but pillage our territory...Abdali, Babur, AL khalid..seriously ? Babur in his babur nama gloats how he made a mountain of skulls from the pashtuns (in present day Afg-Pak) he killed on his way to India..should we also indulge in the same act ?

What is wrong in Muslims themselves identifying with the pre-Islamic past ? Did you people suddenly jump into this land with the arrival of MBQ.. Do you even understand that some are nothing but the Sanskrit names of the elements of nature ? This is why I respect the Iranians amongst all the Muslims...they dont strive for an artificial identity and their primary identity is Persian/Iranian...next comes muslim or whatever...Ask a Iranian Muslim who he respects more - Nader Shah (a Muslim) or Cyrus (a kuffar)....unanimously they will answer Cyrus and the Iranians still curse the Arabs for destroying their beautiful culture and religion..

p.s.: Anyway for your info the Mi-35 Hind is named Akbar in the IAF, if it soothes anything for you.

Come on... convince me that the Indian Muslim is not suppressed..

Frankly,there is no need to convince you of anything. That 50% of the Muslims rejected the "vision" of Jinnah is proof alone of its shallowness.

p.s: Personally I am a supporter of Jinnah's policies and I thank god he won against Congress.

My mother's uncle is in politics in UP dude.. he babbles on how he is sidetracked all the time due to both religious and racial reasons....how he doesn't actually have power..

UP politics is one of the MOST pro-Muslim in India and if he thinks he is sidetracked then his political acumen sucks and he should consider retiring giving ground for more capable players...No offence..


p.s.: Regarding Kerala..they are not majority there..they make up of 22% of the population...not much difference from the 19% in UP.

Muslims in undivided India were Martial people who ruled India for over 1000 years. Why did we become so scared of being a huge 40% minority.

That is BS and I am tired of exposing it.

Go read yourself about the 1000 years buffalo manure yourself..

Hint : the Delhi sultanates started in 1206 and the Mughals breathed their last in 1756 or 1757.

And even in between they maintained their rule over North and Central India only by alliance with a the Hindu kingdoms like Rajputs and not by crushing anyone...they tried crushing the Marathas and were shown their true place.
 
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both Jinnah & Abul kalam azad were great men now going back to history whether we like it or not but their was an issue of Hindu-Muslims conflicts & legitimate concerns of the Muslims regarding the question & fear of a majority domination ( i mean you cannot have the Muslim league & the congress sit side by side with out accommodating the concerns & fears of the other ) thats why were the cabinet mission plan came, a set up in which India would be united to which both Jinnah & Gandhi had agreed but Nehru & Patel did not, plus the ideological difference's between Jinnah & Azad was not the main problem was & as i pointed out was the rejection of the cabinet mission plan by Nehru instigated by Patel when both Quaid e azam Mohamed Ali Jinnah & Mahatma Gandhijee had agreed to it but it was none other then Nehru & Patel who hold on to their stubbornness of an centrist state craft policy while the cabinet mission plan was all about a federation oriented form of statecraft under which India would be united as well as the concerns of the Muslims would also be addressed, so i don't see from where does Maulana Azad & Mohamed ALI Jinnah's political differences could have played any role in the partition as i said both were great men of integrity & honor & i respect them as elders. lets keep the problem where it is & it was the failure of the cabinet mission plan & we all know who was behind it

For all that years everyone knew that it was traction between two policies and disagreement between Congress and ML. But the kind of evidence is produced by OP suggest it was never technical of Jinnah but a Muslim of Jinnah hating Hindus lead to all this. Congress-I was a political party and was suppose to trade the best outcome and be diplomatic; they did the same.

As suggested by many Indians the patrician was good at the end of the day but from now I wouldn't reject completely the Pakistanis who reject his first address to be secular. I believe they might have a point to ponder.

Its a shock.
 
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Dude: not going into the creation of Pakistan, of which I am a big supporter, Jinnah would be spinning at 10000 RPM in his grave if he were to see Pakistan today and how the Muslims are killing Muslims at a much much bigger rate than Hindus are killing Muslims in India.

So let's go easy. There is no need to criticize one to praise other.

Do you think that Pakistan will exist in this state forever?
Every country goes through ups and downs. Even American's fought a civil war with themselves.
India had low points in 62, 84, 2002, etc.
Pakistan's state at the moment is at it's lowest point, and this provides you Indians endless enjoyment which is proof in itself that you people are still angry about partition.
There is a term for what you Indians are going through. Cognitive dissidence. Meaning that if you didn't get what you wanted, you convince yourself that you never wanted it in the first place. It's a self defense mechanism to prevent people like you from going crazy. Although one can argue that it's not very effective :)
 
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Do you think that Pakistan will exist in this state forever?

Honestly no...I foresee a much darker future seeing how Pak is going. But that is just me.


Every country goes through ups and downs. Even American's fought a civil war with themselves.
India had low points in 62, 84, 2002, etc.

62 was a low..? Seriously. ?...it was a border skirmish with no territorial change and played the part of waking our peace loving govt..

2002..yeah it was a low point in few districts in Gujarat...except that nothing...


Pakistan's state at the moment is at it's lowest point, and this provides you Indians endless enjoyment which is proof in itself that you people are still angry about partition.

BS !

If at all there is some one who is happier than Pakistanis about Partition, its me. Think about it, you will get the reason. A much deeper reason than any of your shallow conspiracy theories.


There is a term for what you Indians are going through. Cognitive dissidence. Meaning that if you didn't get what you wanted, you convince yourself that you never wanted it in the first place. It's a self defense mechanism to prevent people like you from going crazy. Although one can argue that it's not very effective :)

Whatever.
 
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Epic , just EPIC ! :pakistan:

There should be freedom of expression as long as it does not cross limits.
A fondness for the Maulana does not.
Racial undertones in personal attacks do cross limits and will be punished severely.

Now if one reads Jinnah's reply, what does it sound like? Why is Maulana Azad vilified when he held the nation above religion? Jinnah asks the Maulana to resign, but when he himself was the president of Congress, it was usual politics? Where was his 'self-respect' then?

As for your comment about "Anwar", do you really believe that bollywood depicts reality? I can give you numerous other examples to contradict, and in a very entertaining manner, the one example you gave.

Maulana Azad loved the nation more than anything else and this reflected in his decisions. Jinnah payed politics as and when it suited him. Jinnah created a nation built on the premise that Muslims cannot coexist peacefully with other religions, in this case Hindus. And yet, India stands tall. Pakistan OTOH, officially discriminates some of its very own minorities!
 
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Azad asked for a straightforward clarification.

Jinnah showed his petty vindictive nature by letting loose a personal diatribe.

At the end of the day, it is good that Jinnah got his way.
 
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