Jinnah had a dream, and we failed him

[Icarus]

Ok. Lets really discuss this. I strongly disagree with that assessment. There are leaders who can rile up the masses and there are visionaries who are good leaders but can or cannot rile up the masses. Jinnah and Gandhi are in the same boat, IMHO. Both were very good politicians and good leaders. But they lacked vision, a foresight. In India the visionaries were Nehru, Patel and others who crafted the policies which are reaping benefits for the nation even today. Unfortunately for Pakistan, there were no visionaries to nurture the state after Jinnah- the politician- got what he wanted. Hence it is but unfortunate that you people want to believe in Jinnah the visionary for the lack of true visionaries then. All the subsequent leaders that Pakistan had or has are more like 'reactionaries' -reacting to events rather than visionaries - influencing events.

I would disagree, Jinnah had seen how Hindus had adapted to British Rule and the entire blame for the 1857 War had fallen on muslims. They had been sidetracked not only by the British rulers but also by the Hindus and Sikhs who now found favour with the British. Life for a muslim in India was difficult, prospects for muslims in India were limited as is evident by the lack of Civil and military officers, Businessmen and other qualified men that Pakistan faced after it's creation. The division was never meant to break India, merely create a federation in which Pakistan would be a state like Andhra Pradesh, Tamil Nadu, Hyderabad, etc. It was the Indian leadership who chose not to entertain these plans. Gandhi and Nehru in June 1946 and Nehru alone in 1954.

Again, India too was created at the same time. India withstood against all those vested global interests and yet thrived. Why couldnt Pakistan do the same? Answer- lack of visionaries like I mentioned before.
You might argue that Jinnah passed away quite early after Pakistan was created. So did Gandhi. But we had other visionaries who understood what India was and paved a path for its development. Those are the real visionaries. Not Gandhi. And definitely NOT Jinnah.

For much of it's history and up till the economic reforms, India lagged way behind Pakistan. Up till 2007 Pakistan was the second fastest growing economy in the world and a global economic reformer, I wouldn't count us out that easy. We just had to face a difficult time at this stage in our history, like India faced in the 80s and anyone alive at the time will tell you that India was in pretty dire straits then. Like you overcame your problems, we'll eventually overcome ours.

we are neither talking about terrorists nor religious riots. We are talking about officially sanctioned discrimination here. Like for eg, Ahmedis/Ismailis who are constitutionally barred as calling themselves as Muslims. Explain THAT. Who gives one the right to discriminate as such?

They are legally non-muslims, though I am personally a critic of this policy(since no other country enforces it), I cannot see how it can be warranted as officially sanctioned discrimination, they have the highest representation of any minority in the Army and the Civil Services, they are a thriving community.

Something right in the middle of Islamabad, a trade center and you think security would be lax for protestors to simply enter and protest? Its not that rosy as you want us to believe.

The place has no security, period. That's about it. Just tinted windows.

Jinnah's dream was fulfilled when Pakistan was created - based on separation of the sub-continent's Muslims from the majority Hindus. Again, IMHO, there was no other dream that Jinnah harbored. That speech he gave in the assembly about secularism is simply too good to believe and goes against the very reason for creation of Pakistan.
Do not delude yourselves in to believing that Jinnah had a dream for Pakistan. There was none. There still is none.

Oversimplification my friend, you think he just secured a partition and we were done? Find another thing to do? He was not learning to play the guitar, he was making nation from scratch. Pakistan was based on protection for minorities and equal rights for all, muslims had to suffer and knew what suffering felt like. Jinnah wanted to ensure that in Pakistan, minorities would not be faced with such suffering. The speech was meant to be all it said it wanted to be. Why else would Pakistan offer to accommodate Sikhs, even after the widely publicized massacre of muslim immigrants by the Sikh community? Why would he offer a Sikh the post of the first Commander-in-Chief of the Pakistan Army?

Jinnah himself wanted a Muslim Majority however with Secularism it still not to late to try to get his pakistan, currently now it's zia pakistan. A De-Radicalization of Pakistan is seriously needed. Anyway Jinnah Pakistan already exists to a certain extend it's called bangladesh.

A country based on Bangla nationalism is Jinnah's Pakistan? You need some research....

 

[American Pakistani]

Jinnah himself wanted a Muslim Majority however with Secularism it still not to late to try to get his pakistan, currently now it's zia pakistan. A De-Radicalization of Pakistan is seriously needed. Anyway Jinnah Pakistan already exists to a certain extend it's called bangladesh.

You are right, Pakistanis need to unite against mulllas & zia's Pakistan. He was evil who brought in tolerance. & also it is annoying that those mullas who were in favor of india in 1947 now openly roam in Pakistan, they must be hanged as they were against creation of Pakistan.

Though i don't agree with last part.

 

[Gautam]

Bit Shortage of Time Mate,but I've hundread of Arguments .. Yea Indian Muslims are Quite Successful on their own, Mostly They are still Facing denail and rejection kind of situation in india, They are Threatened , They are Killed in Riots and they are sentenced to death the worst considered in india.. They gets in jail when they eat Beef, They were abused, I've seen hundreds of Hindu abusers who always shows there frustration against Islam on Net.. And There views are enough to read some on ground realities.

no mate.
Hindus are also abused- killed and harassed. in fact Christians also. it just shows that every sect in India is strong enough to harass some other sect.
you can't compare India with pakistan. every Indian has equal opportunities unlike Pakistan (which was promised by Jinnah.)
two nation theory is failed mate. the sooner you accept it is better.

 

[NeutralCitizen]

I would disagree, Jinnah had seen how Hindus had adapted to British Rule and the entire blame for the 1857 War had fallen on muslims. They had been sidetracked not only by the British rulers but also by the Hindus and Sikhs who now found favour with the British. Life for a muslim in India was difficult, prospects for muslims in India were limited as is evident by the lack of Civil and military officers, Businessmen and other qualified men that Pakistan faced after it's creation. The division was never meant to break India, merely create a federation in which Pakistan would be a state like Andhra Pradesh, Tamil Nadu, Hyderabad, etc. It was the Indian leadership who chose not to entertain these plans. Gandhi and Nehru in June 1946 and Nehru alone in 1954.



For much of it's history and up till the economic reforms, India lagged way behind Pakistan. Up till 2007 Pakistan was the second fastest growing economy in the world and a global economic reformer, I wouldn't count us out that easy. We just had to face a difficult time at this stage in our history, like India faced in the 80s and anyone alive at the time will tell you that India was in pretty dire straits then. Like you overcame your problems, we'll eventually overcome ours.



They are legally non-muslims, though I am personally a critic of this policy(since no other country enforces it), I cannot see how it can be warranted as officially sanctioned discrimination, they have the highest representation of any minority in the Army and the Civil Services, they are a thriving community.



The place has no security, period. That's about it. Just tinted windows.



Oversimplification my friend, you think he just secured a partition and we were done? Find another thing to do? He was not learning to play the guitar, he was making nation from scratch. Pakistan was based on protection for minorities and equal rights for all, muslims had to suffer and knew what suffering felt like. Jinnah wanted to ensure that in Pakistan, minorities would not be faced with such suffering. The speech was meant to be all it said it wanted to be. Why else would Pakistan offer to accommodate Sikhs, even after the widely publicized massacre of muslim immigrants by the Sikh community? Why would he offer a Sikh the post of the first Commander-in-Chief of the Pakistan Army?



A country based on Bangla nationalism is Jinnah's Pakistan? You need some research....

Bangladesh is probably the closeted thing to Jinnah Pakistan Mix of Secularism and Islam.

 

[Icarus]

no mate.
Hindus are also abused- killed and harassed. in fact Christians also. it just shows that every sect in India is strong enough to harass some other sect.
you can't compare India with pakistan. every Indian has equal opportunities unlike Pakistan (which was promised by Jinnah.)
two nation theory is failed mate. the sooner you accept it is better.

You got the fourth line wrong, in Pakistan, a non-muslim may contest for any position except for that of President or Prime Minister. As for your closing comment, until Pakistan stands, the Two-Nation Theory stands.

 

[NeutralCitizen]

You are right, Pakistanis need to unite against mulllas & zia's Pakistan. He was evil who brought in tolerance. & also it is annoying that those mullas who were in favor of india in 1947 now openly roam in Pakistan, they must be hanged as they were against creation of Pakistan.

Though i don't agree with last part.

The First steps are De-Radicalization and getting rid of all terror groups hiding in Pakistan, you should try a method used by other countries to combat extremism by government approved mosques and selecting the imams and letting people in when 18.

 

[Gautam]

I had explained you multiple times but your f@t brain finding it hard to throw it in your head or you love trolling? I told you that Bangladesh was not included in original plan & was to be a separate country named Banglistan or Bangistan, while original Pakistan was supposed to be Punjab, Afghania, Kashmir, Sindh & BalochisTAN but because there were many many top influential leaders from E Bengal in All India Muslim League so they all strongly reject this plan & that made to change the original plan. Bangladesh was never original Pakistan so either they remain with mainland federation or not it doesn't matter.

you're getting me all wrong American Pakistani.
i know what you've told me. in return- I've also asked you some questions.
if Bangal was not your plan- you could have always rejected it. but the reason you did not do it because you believed in Islamic unity. which by the way failed in 71 with the creation of Bangladesh.

 

[Icarus]

I Think Pakistan should Probably disintegrate,carve out a Seperate "Jinnahpur" and the Try again to make his vision a success

Trolling aside
I Think East Pakistan i.e Bangladesh did lived up to his dreams,Bangladesh as a Country is Doing better than Pakistan

1) Post Reported

2) Doing better on what grounds ?

 

[American Pakistani]

Hindus are also abused- killed and harassed. in fact Christians also. it just shows that every sect in India is strong enough to harass some other sect.
you can't compare India with pakistan. every Indian has equal opportunities unlike Pakistan (which was promised by Jinnah.)

All these problems are same in Pakistan, Muslims are the ones who gets killed most, whereas Hindus & Christians Pakistanis also get killed, situation is comparable. But it is smart of indian media who hide this & it is dumb of Pakistan media who shows every thing in the name of freedom of speech.

two nation theory is failed mate. the sooner you accept it is better.

Until one Pakistani is alive & takes the name of Pakistan & raises its flag, 2 Nation Theory is alive.

 

[PAKBARBIE]

no mate.
Hindus are also abused- killed and harassed. in fact Christians also. it just shows that every sect in India is strong enough to harass some other sect.
you can't compare India with pakistan. every Indian has equal opportunities unlike Pakistan (which was promised by Jinnah.)
two nation theory is failed mate. the sooner you accept it is better.

Hindus Christians and Muslism are religions not sects.

"every Indian has equal opportunities unlike Pakistan"

 

[majesticpankaj]

You got the fourth line wrong, in Pakistan, a non-muslim may contest for any position except for that of President or Prime Minister. As for your closing comment, until Pakistan stands, the Two-Nation Theory stands.

no sir...where is actual pakistan (1947) stands. two nation theory got failed after dhaka's fall.... the basic premises of two nation theory got fall in 1971.

 

[Gautam]

You got the fourth line wrong, in Pakistan, a non-muslim may contest for any position except for that of President or Prime Minister. As for your closing comment, until Pakistan stands, the Two-Nation Theory stands.

but pakistan is not the pakistan which Jinnah had dreamt of i.e.east and west Pakistan.
hence it is failed. if you ask me personally- i have no problem accepting Pakistan as a country and a reality. im just disputing this so called 2 nation theory.

 

[NeutralCitizen]

De-Radicalization is the first thing pakistan needs.

 

[American Pakistani]

you're getting me all wrong American Pakistani.
i know what you've told me. in return- I've also asked you some questions.
if Bangal was not your plan- you could have always rejected it. but the reason you did not do it because you believed in Islamic unity. which by the way failed in 71 with the creation of Bangladesh.

IT WAS INFLUENTIAL LEADERS FROM E BENGAL WHO REJECTED THE IDEA, CAN'T YOU UNDERSTAND????

The decisions are made by political parties & if many influential leaders were from E Bengal & they rejected the idea it was wise to accept their demand. Otherwise Muslim Leaguers would end up fighting & there would be no Pakistan.

 

[DRaisinHerald]

"every Indian has equal opportunities unlike Pakistan"

Pakistan isn't the country with a caste system, and a population of 150 million + Dalits which are considered unclean by the majority. Even Indian constitution, to a great degree, based on these castes. You don't see such things in Pakistan.
Even by law, everyone is equal. Stuff like Blasphemy law in theory apply to everyone. Only trouble is, law-keepers themselves are corrupt and enforcement is weak