Jihad only solution to Kashmir issue: Nizami

[ares]

than what's the solution to Pakistan?

Don't worry, their own obsession with Kashmir is gradually decimating them.

 

[JanjaWeed]

Don't worry, their own obsession with Kashmir is gradually decimating them.

now.. that's not a good thing.. if you know what i mean!!

 

[ares]

now.. that's not a good thing.. if you know what i mean!!

Unfortunately its not in our hands, their fate is theirs to decide.

 

[Stumper]

Guys (Ind/Pak members),

Aint you tired? . Does 60 plus years mean nothing to you guys?

Have you ever thought the amount of money we have spent on wars and arms over this land dispute?. Dont you ever wonder what infrastructure we could have built had this money not been used for this wars?

For heavens sake, give peace a chance. Instead of fighting it out in this cyber world, maybe have some gentle discussion on peacefull ways to address the "K" issue, discuss ways in which this animosity can be reduced (if not eliminated).

The same old, holier than thou attitude, belittling each other ..... Dont you get tired guys?

Give nationalism a break, if you can.

 

[JanjaWeed]

Unfortunately its not in our hands, their fate is theirs to decide.

well.. my remark was a bit like tongue in cheek! their obsession with kashmir has put them back in many ways. be it economically, social development or their standing internationally. public in pakistan tend to dwell in kashmir crisis, whereas in india not many lose sleep over it!

 

[American Eagle]

I think the JKLF and it's pacific (peaceful, non-violent) leader who have done in person petitions and studies among all the people of all parts of Kashmir, except the Chinese held portion of Kashmir, understand a general mood for neither Pakistan nor India to dominate them. In that context I have long advocated the Andorran Model be used, which defacto or in fact did begin under Musharraf and is in my humble outsiders view still the most rational basis to slowly, carefully build a solution. In France and Spain, where the Kingdom of Andorra still exists, this slow, over hundreds of years, approach has worked well. The impatience of human nature is not a solution, ever, and leads to ill founded quick fix attempts that do not work and will not last.

 

[Stumper]

their obsession with kashmir has put them back in many ways. be it economically, social development or their standing internationally. public in pakistan tend to dwell in kashmir crisis, whereas in india not many lose sleep over it!

Dont get fooled by that popular cry. They mess they are in, while of its own making, has roots in the Zia era, specifically the Afghan war and The subsequent Kalashnikov culture. The religious bigotry was already prevalent before Hamid Gul started extensive arms support for terrorists activities in Jammu and Kashmir. The Kashmir dispute has hardly added to the misery of Pakistan. If anything, P0K has seen the least violence of all regions under Pakistan Army control (as compared to the other cities of Pakistan).

 

[ares]

I think the JKLF and it's pacific (peaceful, non-violent) leader who have done in person petitions and studies among all the people of all parts of Kashmir, except the Chinese held portion of Kashmir, understand a general mood for neither Pakistan nor India to dominate them. In that context I have long advocated the Andorran Model be used, which defacto or in fact did begin under Musharraf and is in my humble outsiders view still the most rational basis to slowly, carefully build a solution. In France and Spain, where the Kingdom of Andorra still exists, this slow, over hundreds of years, approach has worked well. The impatience of human nature is not a solution, ever, and leads to ill founded quick fix attempts that do not work and will not last.

JKLF is a militant organisation, whose leader Yasin Malik was one of main conspirators behind killing and driving out 300,000 Kashmiri Pandits(Hindus) from Kashmir.
Kashmiri Pandits launch signature campaign against Yasin Malik

 

[Stumper]

I think the JKLF and it's pacific (peaceful, non-violent) leader who have done in person petitions and studies among all the people of all parts of Kashmir, except the Chinese held portion of Kashmir, understand a general mood for neither Pakistan nor India to dominate them. In that context I have long advocated the Andorran Model be used, which defacto or in fact did begin under Musharraf and is in my humble outsiders view still the most rational basis to slowly, carefully build a solution. In France and Spain, where the Kingdom of Andorra still exists, this slow, over hundreds of years, approach has worked well. The impatience of human nature is not a solution, ever, and leads to ill founded quick fix attempts that do not work and will not last.

Not sure. The congress led government do have the votes but not the spine to take a magnanimous approach here. Also the maturity of the masses is still not there, for any "needless" discount be given to the enemy state.

On the other hand, GoP does not have the mandate or Army support for anything less than total dilapidation of the Indian state.

Only hope is a US brokered back channel discussion, if it can somehow make India come to the table by way of some carrot (Say a permanent UN Sec seat?)

 

[ares]

Dont get fooled by that popular cry. They mess they are in, while of its own making, has roots in the Zia era, specifically the Afghan war and The subsequent Kalashnikov culture. The religious bigotry was already prevalent before Hamid Gul started extensive arms support for terrorists activities in Jammu and Kashmir. The Kashmir dispute has hardly added to the misery of Pakistan. If anything, P0K has seen the least violence of all regions under Pakistan Army control (as compared to the other cities of Pakistan).

That is one perspective ..but also another way of looking at it is.

Kashmir is the reason..why India and Pakistan are enemies and to match India militarily ..has led it to making, some very bad choices for itself.
eg Going in American camp, in 50s
Initiating 65 war with a sneak attack, making sure that India-Pakistan relations which were luke warm up till then, turned into cauldron fire..in turn making sure that India takes advantage of situation in Bangladesh in 1971.

Or joining American war against Soviets..which lead to the introduction gun culture in pakistan.

Or Initiating kargil war..which lead to nothing but utter embarrassment for it.

Infact some of the Kashmiri militant organisation(like JeM, LeJ) have even turned against Pakistan and joined hands with Taliban and Al Qaida...twice attempted to kill Musharaf.

 

[JanjaWeed]

Dont get fooled by that popular cry. They mess they are in, while of its own making, has roots in the Zia era, specifically the Afghan war and The subsequent Kalashnikov culture. The religious bigotry was already prevalent before Hamid Gul started extensive arms support for terrorists activities in Jammu and Kashmir. The Kashmir dispute has hardly added to the misery of Pakistan. If anything, P0K has seen the least violence of all regions under Pakistan Army control (as compared to the other cities of Pakistan).

while i agree with what you had to say.. however there is something we need understand that every major foreign policy decisions pursued by pakistan right from day one is revolved around india . if zia had given a free hand to US in the 80's or the subsequent admission by musharraf that had he not sided with US on their mission in afghanistan, India would taken the advantage of the situation. even though pakistan is paying dearly for these misadvntures, it only goes to show that their obsession with india sometimes drives them to take kind of steps which would prove harmful to their own well being in the long run!!

 

[Stumper]

Kashmir is the reason..why India and Pakistan are enemies and to match India militarily ..has led it to making, some very bad choices for itself.
eg Going in American camp, in 50s

Nope. That again was the Dollars provided by Uncle Sam , for services rendered in throwing out the Russians. While you are correct that Zia took a shortcut to arm his forces.

Initiating 65 war with a sneak attack, making sure that India-Pakistan relations which were luke warm up till then, turned into cauldron fire..in turn making sure that India takes advantage of situation in Bangladesh in 1971.

We can avoid on "who started the war " thing. But lets accept, that we played a major role in dismembering state of Pakistan in 71. They have every right to return the favor, isnt it?

Or joining American war against Soviets..which lead to the introduction gun culture in pakistan.

Or Initiating kargil war..which lead to nothing but utter embarrassment for it.

But whats your point? Before the Hamid Gul - Kashmir era, the Jihad mindset was already set in the people of Pakistan.

Infact some of the Kashmiri militant organisation(like JeM, LeJ) have even turned against Pakistan and joined hands with Taliban and Al Qaida...twice attempted to kill Musharaf.

yes, but nothing to do with Kashmir. But because of the perception that the current GoP is a US lackey.

 

[desioptimist]

It seems a lot of people here misunderstand the meaning of Jihad. In fact Jihad is an approach to push people into achieving something that is beyond their capabilities. And Jihad does not specifically mean violence. If violence is a factor to take into consideration, then it will be there for sure. But not an integral part of Jihad.

In fact, people of other religions can also benefit from Jihad, mainly by applying Jihad-e-Akbar (greater Jihad), that precisely means making our lives more disciplined.

I would request Indian members not to take the word Jihad in a wrong manner simply because some people are using it serve their not so angelic personal agendas.

And no, I do not agree with/appreciate Niazmi's views, that seem to endorse violence as part of the Jihad in Kashmir.

I would rather go by the popular use of jihad by muslims themselves. Not some ideal meaning which is discussed in theology session.
Here are some more which you will like to tell us.

They are not real muslims, they are terrorists.
Islam is a peaceful religion, some nutcases abuse it for their own benefits.

 

[Bhim]

@ American Eagle.
Are we talking of Kashmir from religion point of view?

Separation based on muslim majority, which has driven all other religions out of state?

 

[Stumper]

while i agree with what you had to say.. however there is something we need understand that every major foreign policy decisions pursued by pakistan right from day one is revolved around india . if zia had given a free hand to US in the 80's or the subsequent admission by musharraf that had he not sided with US on their mission in afghanistan, India would taken the advantage of the situation. even though pakistan is paying dearly for these misadvntures, it only goes to show that their obsession with india sometimes drives them to take kind of steps which would prove harmful to their own well being in the long run!!

Yes, Pakistan for good or worse has allowed its armed forces to create its foreign and certain domestic policy. And make a distinction between Creating and Influencing foreign policy (as in INDIA's case where Inputs from armed forces are taken as Influences while formulating the Policies). I consider this as sad thing for a democracy where the armed forces meant to protect your borders, create your governing policies.

Now the part where i digress ....

It would be very simplistic to view degeneration of the Pak society fabric as simply a outcome of its India centric policies. Do you think Zia propagated the Mullah culture as part of his India centric plans? State Islamization was India centric? ...

No Sir. He simply wanted to extend his political life. Same is the case with almost all Individuals who have governed this state. Everybody has simply raped it under the nationalism garb.

So my point is, it would be too simplistic to say that Pakistans current suffering are simply a matter of being offshoot of its India centric policies. You will need a depth of understanding of its history to understand how did the rot creep in.