JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[CriticalThought]

Depends on the methodology of acquisition of knowledge base. If it is going to be sharing of knowledge via partnerships then possibly. If it is going to be via establishing of an R&D setup tgen ther isn't enough time. However the former seems the more logical route rather thqn investing money to reinvent the wheel. The crunch question is what is done to enhance the knowledge that is acquired. We have to have the capability of acquiring skills and then advancing them. What are the limitations of the methodology is beyond my knowledge to answer.
A

In general, due to IP issues, if a nation wants to move into a hi-tech area of manufacturing, it follows the following steps:

1. License production.
2. Start acquiring patents in key technologies throughout the production chain.
3. Start researching further refinements and file for patents.

Specifically in aircraft manufacturing, taking the example of titanium machining, we want to use existing processes of machining to create our own product. We cannot sell titanium machining plants, but we can sell the products produced from these plants. In the case of Australia, this is how they acquired the capability of manufacturing F-35:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-12-...trike-fighters-to-be-made-by-bae-syst/5134282

Notice the price tag of 8 million dollars for the Starrag BTP5000 machining facility. This was back in 2013. This is a price range that is WELL within PAC's range, if it can get its hands on the technology.

From my research on the internet, titanium is useful because of lightweight and high tensile strength. So you can make a larger jet that can carry more weight while retaining the same engine power. My research hasn't turned up any advantage in radar signature per se, although titanium compounds and complexes seem to be fundamental in RAM coatings.

Coming back to the discussion of IP rights, if we use a commercially available machining solution, we wouldn't need to worry about patents such as the one discussed here

https://www.google.com/patents/US4294419

We should not have any need to delve into this patent, except for one very key piece of information contained within. The patent repeatedly states that the radar cross-section depends on geometric configuration, and the methods in the patent allow any geometric structure to be created using titanium and its alloys.

And so, in block 4, although we might not see use of advanced materials, I would at least love to see radar reflective surfaces such as diamond nose, angular intakes and twin tails. This design experience would be invaluable for 5th gen efforts, and shouldn't increase the cost of materials for Thunder.

 

[UltimateDefender]

 

[Thorough Pro]

did you mean, "Don't fix what is NOT broken"?

My own reading in the matter is that you dont fix what is broken especially in fighter planes. Major Changes in shape will delay induction and with fleetcobsolescence approaching will not be a good idea.
JFT is already a small platform with low RCS and that will always be affected by it carrying weapons on external hardpoints. One can think along the lines of changes like silent eagle but how feasible that would be is a difficult call.
Personally I dont see many changes in the aircraft shape and most of the changes will be internal and external changes to incorporate those internal changes. For instance larger nose cone addition of a chin mounted hardpoint etc.
Major changes if at all will occur in 2022-25 block 4/5 and then again if it is deemed essential. It must be said that the JFT is our workhorse and we need to be pragmatic in what we can and can not do.
A

 

[malikahmed91279]

Will Pakistan buy 100 jf-17 block 3 or make an block 4 for next 50?

 

[Basel]

In general, due to IP issues, if a nation wants to move into a hi-tech area of manufacturing, it follows the following steps:

1. License production.
2. Start acquiring patents in key technologies throughout the production chain.
3. Start researching further refinements and file for patents.

Specifically in aircraft manufacturing, taking the example of titanium machining, we want to use existing processes of machining to create our own product. We cannot sell titanium machining plants, but we can sell the products produced from these plants. In the case of Australia, this is how they acquired the capability of manufacturing F-35:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-12-...trike-fighters-to-be-made-by-bae-syst/5134282

Notice the price tag of 8 million dollars for the Starrag BTP5000 machining facility. This was back in 2013. This is a price range that is WELL within PAC's range, if it can get its hands on the technology.

From my research on the internet, titanium is useful because of lightweight and high tensile strength. So you can make a larger jet that can carry more weight while retaining the same engine power. My research hasn't turned up any advantage in radar signature per se, although titanium compounds and complexes seem to be fundamental in RAM coatings.

Coming back to the discussion of IP rights, if we use a commercially available machining solution, we wouldn't need to worry about patents such as the one discussed here

https://www.google.com/patents/US4294419

We should not have any need to delve into this patent, except for one very key piece of information contained within. The patent repeatedly states that the radar cross-section depends on geometric configuration, and the methods in the patent allow any geometric structure to be created using titanium and its alloys.

And so, in block 4, although we might not see use of advanced materials, I would at least love to see radar reflective surfaces such as diamond nose, angular intakes and twin tails. This design experience would be invaluable for 5th gen efforts, and shouldn't increase the cost of materials for Thunder.

@gambit Please share your opinion on quote.

 

[Dr Shaheryar]

I think 100 of JF17 III and then 50 of Block IV or Naval variant.

 

[malikahmed91279]

I think 100 of JF17 III and then 50 of Block IV or Naval variant.

Pakistan planning to buy 300 jets????

 

[Dr Shaheryar]

No...it is 250. so 50 of Block I then 50 of Block II and then its guessing 100 of Block III, some JF17B and then next block if they want to. But then again its all guessing as you don't know what PAF actually wants and what time and government have them procured.

 

[CriticalThought]

@gambit Please share your opinion on quote.

Due to sensitive nature of the technology involved, instead of relying on comments by any foreign expert, our designers should follow the scientific approach in reaching conclusions. In a lab, put a block of aluminum and a block of titanium to test by irradiating with radar waves and capturing the reflected signal. This can tell them if titanium provides any stealth advantage over aluminum.

Of course what I have described above is very simplistic. But I am quite sure PAC personnel can create more sophisticated test fixtures. If we are going to be self-reliant, we need to adopt the scientific approach in making decisions.

 

[malikahmed91279]

I really want to see jf-17 with a new 5th generation design and place as MRCA, 4.5-5th generation fighter

 

[Dr Shaheryar]

We all wish that. Hope for something good and it will definitely materialize. The track PAF is on may produce some extra ordinary results in short span of time. Fingers crossed.

 

[Basel]

I really want to see jf-17 with a new 5th generation design and place as MRCA, 4.5-5th generation fighter

Then it will be JF-X not JF-17.

 

[Signalian]

Mig 29 OVT uses thrust vectoring nozzles that could turn 15 degrees in any direction using RD 33 engines.

Can thrust vectoring be tried on a single engined JF 17 using RD 93 engine, what could be advantages or dis advantages

 

[Mentee]

Mig 29 OVT uses thrust vectoring nozzles that could turn 15 degrees in any direction using RD 33 engines.

Can thrust vectoring be tried on a single engined JF 17 using RD 93 engine, what could be advantages or dis advantages

advantages: Kids going crazy over the stunts performed by a jangi jahaz . Yaaaay

disadvantages : These gimmicks wont stop a bvr to tear it apart

 

[Zarvan]