JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[Deino]

MK not coming slow .

@Deino is a nice guy and as per my observation, not that much of a “tech geek”, more interested in collection of Chinese origin aircraft/missile/any system, information.

He is not the one to answer the shortcomings of RD-93 on Thunders. However, your demand is valid as he did suggest EJ-2000 /Snecma/GE

You are indeed correct and as @Mangus Ortus Novem asked, I'm not sure, why he's so angry... reason for this is probably that we have a certain history that - I would even admit for both of us - sometimes makes us blind for what the other said due to our own bias.

In fact he exactly repeated, what I said - or at least wanted to say - before:

The RD-93 has no shortcomings for the value received = "this RD-93 is a blessing but it was the best available given the political and budget considerations".

As such, would there a Western engine be available or would Pakistani be able or willing to pay more, it would have been better. But so, the RD-93 is the best bang for the value paid.

Therefore at least IMO no reason for such a harsh reply...

Concerning your question: I'm indeed not a technical guy - at least I admit - and as such I cannot mention you any specific shortcomings of the RD-93 other that it is no longer an match against any of the other three powerplants I mentioned and - I know he won't like it again - that those former pilots I spoke to, several who flew MiG-21, MiG-23, F-16 and even €F all say in summary "yes, it is a nice, decent little airplane, but it's engine is its main weakpoint. No-one will admit this especially if you ask anyone in Pakistan, but it is its major shortcoming in nearly all points @MastanKhan mentioned."

Anyway; it is the best bang for the buck paid.

 

[YeBeWarned]

has been discussed multiple times that balakot of KPK is 49 KM from LOC. if you drop a spice 2000 at optimum conditions it can travel 100km, 50 km is achieved easily most of the time..IAF probably just touched LOC and left, PAF probably didnt even knew that they dropped something

Not an expert on these matters but if IAF barely crossed LoC to dropped the SPICE , but to travel roughly 70-80 km inside Pakistan to hit a target , the SPICE needs to be launched from a particularly high Altitude , and if that was the case than why our AWACs didn't picked them ? We do know that 26th night was hot and there were a lot of inception going on in various sectors .

 

[StormBreaker]

You are indeed correct and as @Mangus Ortus Novem asked, I'm not sure, why he's so angry... reason for this is probably that we have a certain history that - I would even admit for both of us - sometimes makes us blind for what the other said due to our own bias.

In fact he exactly repeated, what I said - or at least wanted to say - before:

The RD-93 has no shortcomings for the value received = "this RD-93 is a blessing but it was the best available given the political and budget considerations".

As such, would there a Western engine be available or would Pakistani be able or willing to pay more, it would have been better. But so, the RD-93 is the best bang for the value paid.

Therefore at least IMO no reason for such a harsh reply...

View attachment 593333

Concerning your question: I'm indeed not a technical guy - at least I admit - and as such I cannot mention you any specific shortcomings of the RD-93 other that it is no longer an match against any of the other three powerplants I mentioned and - I know he won't like it again - that those former pilots I spoke to, several who flew MiG-21, MiG-23, F-16 and even €F all say in summary "yes, it is a nice, decent little airplane, but it's engine is its main weakpoint. No-one will admit this especially if you ask anyone in Pakistan, but it is its major shortcoming in nearly all points @MastanKhan mentioned."

Anyway; it is the best bang for the buck paid.

Before you bring EJ2000, GE into question, remember, RD-93 has been adapted for Thunder and vice versa.
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) How would the others benefit Thunders further ?

 

[MastanKhan]

MK not coming slow .

@Deino is a nice guy and as per my observation, not that much of a “tech geek”, more interested in collection of Chinese origin aircraft/missile/any system, information.

He is not the one to answer the shortcomings of RD-93 on Thunders. However, your demand is valid as he did suggest EJ-2000 /Snecma/GE

hi

what is interesting is that over 100 aircraft flying and not a single incidence of engine problem.

so if someone is being a critic, it tells me there are issues somewhere else.

because the RD93 has been the most stable item on the list

 

[araz]

Teacherman,

Yes, with a Western motor... Thunder would have more punch in the first two Blocks... EJ2000 is compatible... but then enters Geostrategic Calculus of Global Power Struggle.

PakEconomy is now having a solid foundation and the growth rates will be moving up mid next year... and the trajectory is geared towards more positive... so in a few years money won't be problem.

However, even with Money... Pakistan's Choices are now governed by Geostrategic Space Creation than mere platforms...

CPEC Fight is on... and we might just see KhafeeLeaks coming into the open as well... starting with release of CSF that the US is illegally holding...

I would rather see the Continuous Improvement Cycle for JF ...and more focus on Project AZM... collaboration with Eurozone is most welcome... but production needs to be local sans motor which remains El Drado ...

So, JF is like a F22 for Paks ... emotionally.

Emotion of a poor country on its way to recovery... for some it is difficult to understand how some Pak posters go overboard with super qualities of Thunder... but then Pak is a developing country... and achievements such as Thunder provide a Hope towards coming out of DarkDecades!!!

Thunder = Freedom

So, Teacherman, what do you think that Block3 will be like? Stealth with supercruise?

Regards,

Mangus

My Dear Friend.
I have always read your posts with interest. However I would disagree on your forecasts on the improvement in Pak Economy. I would suggest that you take a much more cautious approach and I suspect stabilization in economic factors post 2025. The amount of loans on our heads and their impact on social and other parameters will mean stunted growth for quite some time. The CPEC needs to evolve and that will take time as industries will slowly start to come on line. This could be a very long time before we achieve what you expect to achieve.
Secondly US will never hand you 9 billion dollars without making you sweat blood. We are better off not counting that lot of eggs as only more snakes will come out of them. Rest I agree with.
A

 

[Deino]

Before you bring EJ2000, GE into question, remember, RD-93 has been adapted for Thunder and vice versa.
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) How would the others benefit Thunders further ?

I fully agree and as such - as with all aircraft designs in front of such a question - it would be a decision on weighting cost and time versus performance gains and IMO - esp. in mind of AZM already on the horizon - it won't be worth.

But again, just my two cents.

hi

what is interesting is that over 100 aircraft flying and not a single incidence of engine problem.

so if someone is being a critic, it tells me there are issues somewhere else.

because the RD93 has been the most stable item on the list

Again I'll try ... I neither rate the RD-93 as a failure nor a source of problems; I only rate it what it is : not the most modern engine, the best available for an available amount of budget and as always "the better is the enemy of the good". I think in the end if you would at least be willing to listen, we are not that far off to each other.

 

[khail007]

Smoke comes when something else other than diesel is burnt, which usually is engine oil, when smoke is black.

Sir G,
Oil burns = Blue smoke
Rich Fuel Mixture = Black smoke
Water in combustion chamber = White dense smoke like steam.

 

[ziaulislam]

Not an expert on these matters but if IAF barely crossed LoC to dropped the SPICE , but to travel roughly 70-80 km inside Pakistan to hit a target , the SPICE needs to be launched from a particularly high Altitude , and if that was the case than why our AWACs didn't picked them ? We do know that 26th night was hot and there were a lot of inception going on in various sectors .

Our simple radars pick it up and scramble was sent but no fly zone is just 10km so a scramble will probably not be able to stop a brief intrusion ..even a aircarft in the air will not be able to stop such a small intrusion which probably can be achieved within 60 seconds

Same is true for IAF against PAF

 

[YeBeWarned]

Our simple radars pick it up and scramble was sent but no fly zone is just 10km so a scramble will probably not be able to stop a brief intrusion ..even a aircarft in the air will not be able to stop such a small intrusion which probably can be achieved within 60 seconds

Same is true for IAF against PAF

I have a theory that, the incoming formation of IAF was detected early than it was disclosed, PAF send its CAP to intercept but up on seeing PAF fighters on Radar , IAF thought it might turned into a full on Dog fight for which they were not prepared, ( if they were than they could easily erase a small CAP, by using their 12 unit formation ) IAF released the package in sheer Panic only to later put up a claim to have destroy the building with 300 Terrorists, they IAF knows that all we need is to cast the stone, the damage will be decided by the TV talk shows .

 

[cranwerkhan]

You are one of my faverit member of PDF always enjoy your coments

Ah mij vriend, jij bent een fijne mens met een goede harte... wij zijn zo blij dat je hier bent!!!

We are honoured, happy and delighted that you, Teacherman, are here... keeps things in perspective... a kinda Teacher to keep the class in order.

You have always been a man of reason and have character to admit fault...

I remember you did that to Beast regarding engine or something... I wanted to give you positive rating for that act of character... so kindly, accept a Spiritual one...

@MastanKhan is equally wonderful...with his different ThinkingHats.. old man wants the very best from Paks..and is quick to smack us with his burning rod... let us call it Pakistani Style of Showing Love... but MK enjoys my esteem...since he offers a different perspective...though forcefully.

Both of you are highly valuable for us... I would like to ask @WebMaster to make you @Deino mod in PAF section to keep things organised... given your Germanness can't handle disorder...

Duits Grondigheid is geweldig... Pakistan moet daarvan leren!!!

 

[Bratva]

Not an expert on these matters but if IAF barely crossed LoC to dropped the SPICE , but to travel roughly 70-80 km inside Pakistan to hit a target , the SPICE needs to be launched from a particularly high Altitude , and if that was the case than why our AWACs didn't picked them ? We do know that 26th night was hot and there were a lot of inception going on in various sectors .

Our simple radars pick it up and scramble was sent but no fly zone is just 10km so a scramble will probably not be able to stop a brief intrusion ..even a aircarft in the air will not be able to stop such a small intrusion which probably can be achieved within 60 seconds

Same is true for IAF against PAF

I have a theory that, the incoming formation of IAF was detected early than it was disclosed, PAF send its CAP to intercept but up on seeing PAF fighters on Radar , IAF thought it might turned into a full on Dog fight for which they were not prepared, ( if they were than they could easily erase a small CAP, by using their 12 unit formation ) IAF released the package in sheer Panic only to later put up a claim to have destroy the building with 300 Terrorists, they IAF knows that all we need is to cast the stone, the damage will be decided by the TV talk shows .

Just to paraphrase the facts. The local indian media carried the interview of one of the AVM of Indian airforce in which he claimed following things

* Original target was Bhawalpur Seminary of JEM. But due to high chance of collateral damage, they changed the target last minute

* On 26 Night when Indian strike package flew from the airbase, Indian AWAC in the air picked up large swarm of Pakistani fighter jets patrolling over Islamabad and AJK Sector

* Indians Decided to distract Pakistani Airforce immediately by sending the similar size Balakot Strike Package to two different sectors to divert their attention so Balakot package can sneak in and do the strike

* We know from Pakistani DGISPR as well as from Indians that Indian send two strike packages in Bhawalpur sector and one more sector which Distracted Pakistani airforce


* Indians Re-routed their strike Package through a long route over Punjab and they refueled their airplanes as well on the way to Kashmir Sector

*So the reason why the Balakot Strike Package wasnt detected immediately because of the trajectory it took. Mainland India, Punjab and then Kashmir.

* DGISPR Admitted as much they intruded 6-7 NM inside Pakistan which is 10 KM roughly. While Pakistani Airforce was successfully distracted, they sneak into Kashmir Sector and Released the payload and intruded Pakistani Airspace but by the time PAF CAP was alerted to intercept them IAF returned back

* One of the Mirages Failed to release one of that SOW which were to record the Balakot strike like H-Weapon but That SOW malfunctioned to release from Mirage


So All in All, 26 FEB exposed one thing of PAF very badly. It can't handle Multiple intrusions at the same time.

 

[PakFactor]

Just to paraphrase the facts. The local indian media carried the interview of one of the AVM of Indian airforce in which he claimed following things

* Original target was Bhawalpur Seminary of JEM. But due to high collateral damage, they changed the target last miniute

* On 26 Night when Indian strike package flew from the airbase, Indian AWAC in the air picked up large swarm of Pakistani fighter jets patrolling over Islamabad and AJK Sector

* Indians Decided to distract Pakistani Airforce immediately by sending the same size of Balakot Strike Package to two different sectors to divert their attention so Balakot package can sneak in and do the strike

* We know from Pakistani DGISPR as well as from Indians that Indian send two strike packages in Bhawalpur sector and one more sector which Distracted Pakistani airforce


* Indians Re-routed their strike Package through a long route over Punjab and they refueled their airplanes as well on the way to Kashmir Sector

*So the reason why the Balakot Strike Package wasnt detected immediately because of the trajectory it took. Mainland India, Punjab and then Kashmir.

* DGISPR Admitted as much they intruded 6-7 NM inside Pakistan which is 10 KM roughly. While Pakistani Airforce was successfully distracted, they sneak into Kashmir Sector and Released the payload and intruded Pakistani Airspace but the PAF CAP by that time was alerted to intercept them and IAF returned back

* One of the Mirages Failed to release one of that SOW which were to record the Balakot strike like H-Weapon but That SOW malfunctioned to release from Mirage


So All in All, 26 FEB exposed one thing of PAF very badly. It can't handle Multiple intrusions at the same time.

Well besides that the Air-Ground Defense System should have acted until PAF was responding. The ground team failed as well.

 

[ziaulislam]

Just to paraphrase the facts. The local indian media carried the interview of one of the AVM of Indian airforce in which he claimed following things

* Original target was Bhawalpur Seminary of JEM. But due to high collateral damage, they changed the target last miniute

* On 26 Night when Indian strike package flew from the airbase, Indian AWAC in the air picked up large swarm of Pakistani fighter jets patrolling over Islamabad and AJK Sector

* Indians Decided to distract Pakistani Airforce immediately by sending the same size of Balakot Strike Package to two different sectors to divert their attention so Balakot package can sneak in and do the strike

* We know from Pakistani DGISPR as well as from Indians that Indian send two strike packages in Bhawalpur sector and one more sector which Distracted Pakistani airforce


* Indians Re-routed their strike Package through a long route over Punjab and they refueled their airplanes as well on the way to Kashmir Sector

*So the reason why the Balakot Strike Package wasnt detected immediately because of the trajectory it took. Mainland India, Punjab and then Kashmir.

* DGISPR Admitted as much they intruded 6-7 NM inside Pakistan which is 10 KM roughly. While Pakistani Airforce was successfully distracted, they sneak into Kashmir Sector and Released the payload and intruded Pakistani Airspace but the PAF CAP by that time was alerted to intercept them and IAF returned back

* One of the Mirages Failed to release one of that SOW which were to record the Balakot strike like H-Weapon but That SOW malfunctioned to release from Mirage


So All in All, 26 FEB exposed one thing of PAF very badly. It can't handle Multiple intrusions at the same time.

So how would you judge a much larger IAF..?
Didnt we replicate the strike in much better way

 

[MastanKhan]

Before you bring EJ2000, GE into question, remember, RD-93 has been adapted for Thunder and vice versa.
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) How would the others benefit Thunders further ?

While you are waiting for Quwa, i will give you my answer.

a european engine would cost around 5 million dollars roughly to approximately one million dollars for rd93.

But the performance difference is not 4 or 5 times—-. It us barely 1.1 1.2 times better. Next it has no restrictions or sanctions.

replacement parts are comparatively less expensive and readily available.

The european engine would last 2 1/2 time longer than the russian engine---but what benefit would that be for the aircraft and for the defense of pakistan---not much---when the russian engine can do the same job at 1/5 the price---.

So---we are paying 100 million dollars for 100 russian engines---it would get us 20 european engines for the same amount of money---.

There is a big big difference between 20 JF17's and 100 JF 17's---.

If fast speed was the answer then F35 Rafale would be very fast top end speed aircraft, but they are not.

their saving grace is their overall electronic warfare package and better missiles.

these two will always overcome a better engine.

 

[Haris Ali2140]

Just to paraphrase the facts. The local indian media carried the interview of one of the AVM of Indian airforce in which he claimed following things

* Original target was Bhawalpur Seminary of JEM. But due to high collateral damage, they changed the target last miniute

* On 26 Night when Indian strike package flew from the airbase, Indian AWAC in the air picked up large swarm of Pakistani fighter jets patrolling over Islamabad and AJK Sector

* Indians Decided to distract Pakistani Airforce immediately by sending the same size of Balakot Strike Package to two different sectors to divert their attention so Balakot package can sneak in and do the strike

* We know from Pakistani DGISPR as well as from Indians that Indian send two strike packages in Bhawalpur sector and one more sector which Distracted Pakistani airforce


* Indians Re-routed their strike Package through a long route over Punjab and they refueled their airplanes as well on the way to Kashmir Sector

*So the reason why the Balakot Strike Package wasnt detected immediately because of the trajectory it took. Mainland India, Punjab and then Kashmir.

* DGISPR Admitted as much they intruded 6-7 NM inside Pakistan which is 10 KM roughly. While Pakistani Airforce was successfully distracted, they sneak into Kashmir Sector and Released the payload and intruded Pakistani Airspace but the PAF CAP by that time was alerted to intercept them and IAF returned back

* One of the Mirages Failed to release one of that SOW which were to record the Balakot strike like H-Weapon but That SOW malfunctioned to release from Mirage


So All in All, 26 FEB exposed one thing of PAF very badly. It can't handle Multiple intrusions at the same time.

Why do you think PAF can't handle multiple intrsions at same time??? Lack of interceptors or unpreparedness???