JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[Silicon0000]

We don't even had turbine for JF17.

Your comments is hinting that for AZM we don't even have appropriate Chinese options and if that's true than we are in serious trouble.

But I believe now we are in capable hands and our air force are good enough to come out of every difficulty.

Without an appropriate turbine forget 5th generation vehicles.

Look at the evolution of Jian10 (which is not Jian10-C) & follow the same curve for FC1.
.

J10 to J20 & JF17 to AZM

 

[messiach]

They have significant reserves for Ni. Liquid-liquid extraction is in utility for a while now.

how much iridium have the chinese stocked up ?

 

[SQ8]

They have significant reserves for Ni. Liquid-liquid extraction is in utility for a while now.

On a basic timeframe scale (fantastical hypotheses), given resources and zero ethical standards(reverse engineering, hacking etc); how long would it take for us to develop a powerplant comparable to the F-135?

 

[messiach]

from start to finish - 25y.

On a basic timeframe scale (fantastical hypotheses), given resources and zero ethical standards(reverse engineering, hacking etc); how long would it take for us to develop a powerplant comparable to the F-135?

 

[YeBeWarned]

well so far reading and understanding from what seniors and experts have been hinting for quite some time, seems block3 will have no structural changes other than a Diamond shaped nose to accommodate AESA , adding more hard points is possible but i dont thing it matters for now as if the dual rack is operation than JF can carry 4 BVR, 2 WVR and 3 external fuel tanks under the belly .

Block 3 and Block 4 will be exactly as block 1 and block 2 were .. few changes but identical twins . As for Project AZM, it will be an interesting to note that Pakistan work on JF were highly influenced by F-16, so there is no reason i can think of that PAC will not utilize its experience of JF and use it onto FGF program . here its worth mentioning that for quite some time, Pakistan air force is looking for a stop gap solution to hasten its replacement program of F-7 and Mirage III .. If PAF actually went ahead for a fighter from the east they might be able integrate its technology into the 5th Generation program . and lets not forget the increasing ties of PAC and TAI, with TF-X taking shape i have no reason to doubt that TAI might help us in developing our Project AZM .

 

[MastanKhan]

from start to finish - 25y.

Hi,

And how many billions in dollars are we talking about---.

Secondly---and after 25 years---when we have an engine similar to the one in F35---that engine would be obsolete---.

Basically---as in auto industry---those nations who have already built successful auto engine---will continue to build them---.

Similarly---there will be no new modern fighter aircraft engine manufacturers except for those who are already in the fray---.

There would be no new auto engine manufacturer in the coming decades---. Only JOINT VENTURES if any---.

Pakistan should get involved in a joint venture with china or russia---.

 

[krash]

It was a lolypop type offer ... They oferred but despite PAF was interested but it never materialized as Chinese keep on delaying actual negotiations ...

Not quite my friend. It was Pakistan which seemed not interested and kept fending off the Chinese offers. We wanted the F-16s, as always. It was only in 2003 when Musharraf, during his Chinese visit, was taken to the J10 production plant, given presentations on the bird and made an offer which, apparently, he could not refuse. They sweetened the offer by going as far as offering a completely customised and improved variant tailored to our demands. A variant which was to be more advanced than the then Chinese versions (the J-10B and then the rumoured J-10C were long speculated to be that very customised and improved version of the J-10). Musharraf then came back and convinced/'forced' the PAF to reduce the Block 52+ order and instead start planning to procure the FC-20. We did reduce the F-16 order but then never ended up procuring the FC-20 because, frankly speaking, the PPP tenure didn't leave a penny in our coffers. Our domestic projects lost years (JF-17, Al-Khalid, Al-Khalid II, etc., etc.), we had no chance of entertaining an import order of that magnitude.

 

[CriticalThought]

from start to finish - 25y.

The way intellectual property rights work these days, it makes no sense to retreat into a cocoon and create a technology from scratch. Even if we were to accomplish this feat, we would not be able to scale it financially by selling to other countries. Which is why, any financially viable enterprise MUST start with license production that allows full modifications. Then, start performing research to incrementally improve the technology in novel ways and start patenting these innovations.

I believe a far more viable path is to get license rights for RD-93, or AL-31/41, and then start from there.

@Oscar @Sinnerman108

 

[The Accountant]

Not quite my friend. It was Pakistan which seemed not interested and kept fending off the Chinese offers. We wanted the F-16s, as always. It was only in 2003 when Musharraf, during his Chinese visit, was taken to the J10 production plant, given presentations on the bird and made an offer which, apparently, he could not refuse. They sweetened the offer by going as far as offering a completely customised and improved variant tailored to our demands. A variant which was to be more advanced than the then Chinese versions (the J-10B and then the rumoured J-10C were long speculated to be that very customised and improved version of the J-10). Musharraf then came back and convinced/'forced' the PAF to reduce the Block 52+ order and instead start planning to procure the FC-20. We did reduce the F-16 order but then never ended up procuring the FC-20 because, frankly speaking, the PPP tenure didn't leave a penny in our coffers. Our domestic projects lost years (JF-17, Al-Khalid, Al-Khalid II, etc., etc.), we had no chance of entertaining an import order of that magnitude.

I had a discussion on this from some insiders ... it is not my opinion but facts shared by some knowlefgeable guys ...

The ones that have fought have not fared very well either. There needs to be a lot of culling for things to improve.
A

Agreed but more of us means more strength to fight this cancer ...

I myself quit my job last year as they were asking me to move outside Pakistan ...

Everyone has its own priorities and we should respect that but on the other hand we should realize that if we leave key positions for the corrupt they will keep on haunting us ... IK is the best example ... he is fighting by getting into the politics not by condemning it from outside the system

 

[krash]

I had a discussion on this from some insiders ... it is not my opinion but facts shared by some knowlefgeable guys ...

Well then those insiders were mistaken. Facts aren't facts unless accompanied by proof. There's nothing hidden about these events, they are all pretty well known and documented. We really must stop listening to these 'insiders' and fanning these nonsensical conspiracy theories. The PAF literally cut its F-16 planned order in half. Doubt they'd do that for some 'lollypop' offer.

These 'insiders' also once claimed that the JF-17 would be a failure because they had flown and/or worked on other Chinese aircraft which were claimed to be crap and unwanted by the PAF. That no one even wanted to fly the JF-17. I was actually told this by a PAF officer. Did you think that this mohallay ki bs-ing aunty mentality is confined to the civies?

 

[The Accountant]

Well then those insiders were mistaken. Facts aren't facts unless accompanied by proof. There's nothing hidden about these events, they are all pretty well known and documented. We really must stop listening to these 'insiders' and fanning these nonsensical conspiracy theories. The PAF literally cut its F-16 planned order in half. Doubt they'd do that for some 'lollypop' offer.

These 'insiders' also once claimed that the JF-17 would be a failure because they had flown and/or worked on other Chinese aircraft which were claimed to be crap and unwanted by the PAF. That no one even wanted to fly the JF-17. I was actually told this by a PAF officer. Did you think that this mohallay ki bs-ing aunty mentality is confined to the civies?

And what proof do u have in favor of your assumption that j10 was available but was not procured by PAF ?

 

[GriffinsRule]

The cut for the F-16s had more to do with the severe damage to the Pakistani economy and infrastructure as a result of earthquakes and nothing to do with Musharaf convincing PAF to reduce the order in lieu of J-10 (which I might add is an unsubstantiated claim)

 

[Sinnerman108]

The way intellectual property rights work these days, it makes no sense to retreat into a cocoon and create a technology from scratch. Even if we were to accomplish this feat, we would not be able to scale it financially by selling to other countries. Which is why, any financially viable enterprise MUST start with license production that allows full modifications. Then, start performing research to incrementally improve the technology in novel ways and start patenting these innovations.

I believe a far more viable path is to get license rights for RD-93, or AL-31/41, and then start from there.

@Oscar @Sinnerman108

License to build is usually a license to assemble with local workforce.
Building some thing means different things to different people.

 

[CriticalThought]

License to build is usually a license to assemble with local workforce.
Building some thing means different things to different people.

I mean acquiring full intellectual property rights along with the entire infrastructure to build from scratch.

 

[The Accountant]

License to build is usually a license to assemble with local workforce.
Building some thing means different things to different people.

License to build could be anything, it all depends on your intent and capacity to negotiate... Of course, the price of a license to assemble will be different than a license to manufacture ... In license to manufacture you will purchase the whole design and technology as well ...