JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 6]

[nomi007]

1st dual racket jf-17 pictures

 

[Windjammer]

 

[The SC]

Hi,

We all discussed about the JF 17 being a ground strike aircraft for many a years after the air force stated its capabilities and me amongst many was aghast at the lack of bvr capability----the bvr capability came in later----but as the aircraft went into production and integration it was touted for ground strike missions.

Readers must understand the issue here---this aircraft has been offered for sale----which means that it is capable for all aspects of air warfare and ground strike missions---it has been on sale for a few years---which means that most aspects of its operational capabilities have been achieved----so what is missing.




Hi,

You saying combat use tag is not important and something about finances--------these are extremely strange comments----all defence equipment sellers want to display the potency of their weapons against real targets----and nothing beats the deal when the opponent does not shoot back---.

As for 'living on a hype'----the proof is in the pudding---the picture is in front of everyone to see----.

PAF has been accused of bad marketing for this aircraft---you can try to protect this organization as much as you want to----but as for what they are capable of doing----their failures are bigger than their successes---.

There is another view of things when we know some facts, like more than 5 middle eastern nations have shown genuine interest in the aircraft, and most of them are interested in block2, for some reason or another.
That pack is building another facility to enhance the production capacity of the JF-17, which stands as 25 a year for now with 18 per year actual production, should indicate at least, that Pakistan wants to speed up the production and free some lines for exports. Because exports (sales) will happen, considering that nothing else exists on the market to replace the hundreds of F-5s, Mi-21s, J-7s...etc, let us say more than 500 /600 of them at least, total replacements around the world exceeds 4000 light fighter aircrafts, at the price set by Pakistan And China, who (too, many serious reports believe it)) will induct it in its forces to replace older platforms, some 400 of them at least.
I do not think that Pakistan messed up its marketing campaign in any way, and that is due to two facts, the first of which is that PAF does not have to exported it (but to make some money, it is OK), if it choses to, since the financing of the whole program was secured beforehand. The second reason is the urgent need of PAF for 250 JF-17 to replace aging and outdated fighter planes in its inventory. And there are also improvements and testings for a final domestic product and an export version, and/ or the feasibility studies of joint ventures and their own requirements.
So, if one looks at it from this point of view, he can understand the context and see through it much clearly.

 

[fatman17]

"The latest news (June 2014) indicated that the first two JF-17 Block IIs are being assembled at PAC. First flight is projected by the end of the year. It is expected that all the Block I JF-17s will be upgraded to the Block II standard in the future as well."

 

[Arsalan]

Most of the strikes against TTP are mostly conducted with support of comms coming from electronics currently configured on US origin fleet. Its not the 'combat-use-tag-on-JF17' that matters more than use of whats more required (both in terms of clearing weapons stores and associated finances related to operating cost of F-16s). Mirages have been back-bone of strike element of PAF since 1967, and it has not flown more than 25% of total combat missions.

Lastly regarding weapons configurations; JF-17 has been tested and cleared for dumb bombs back in 2010. LGBs and the electronics pods are being tested (but not completed yet). If the aircraft was so 'living-in-hype' as you put it we had not seen 50 aircraft delivered and performing daily flights.

While i do not share Mastankhan's views of JF-17 being a failure or just living in hype thing, i also do not agree that "Combat Proven" tag is not required. If we need to market it positively, i don't think anything will be a better certificate then being a Combat Proven tag.

I also know that for now focus is on meeting the requirement of PAF and export is second priority but you cannot underestimate the value of getting this machine exported and operational with other air forces of the world. The finance coming in will help JFT evolution and we can make it a better plane in future. we can seek partnership for next block of JF-17 and if the numbers are to be increased beyond 150 (it seems quite sure that they will not, specially with FC20 deal not happening) we will need some partners to share the financing with us to improve this plane to a true 4.5 generation level.

Even if all the above is not true, still JF-17

 

[nomi007]

1st dual racket jf-17 pictures
View attachment 101530

View attachment 101538

hope in 2nd phase paf will also change engine nozzles

 

[Najam Khan]

Hi,

You saying combat use tag is not important and something about finances--------these are extremely strange comments----all defence equipment sellers want to display the potency of their weapons against real targets----and nothing beats the deal when the opponent does not shoot back---.

As for 'living on a hype'----the proof is in the pudding---the picture is in front of everyone to see----.

PAF has been accused of bad marketing for this aircraft---you can try to protect this organization as much as you want to----but as for what they are capable of doing----their failures are bigger than their successes---.

My friend you have become cynical; either you are completely ignorant about the theme of these COIN operations or you have stopped reading and analysing. You misread my post, especially the area where I mentioned the reasons why JF-17 is not the best option for these operations. Here is what I wrote earlier.

Most of the strikes against TTP are conducted with support of comms coming from electronics currently configured on US origin fleet. Its not the 'combat-use-tag-on-JF17' that matters more than use of whats more required (both in terms of clearing weapons stores and associated finances related to operating cost of F-16s).

Now let me enlighten you regarding some facts..

The operation needs are more important then getting 'combat-tag' on JF-17. There are either fixed targets (high/low value) or moving high/low value targets. With current cleared weapons on JF-17 its favourable for fixed targets. These targets are mostly training centers, hideouts, weapons dump/stores etc; these are very
small in number; most of them have already been nuteralised. TTP don't have much left now.

Now comes the moving (HV/LV) target; As I already put this; F-16 and other a/c those are mapped onto link16/related electronics are favourable for these roles.
Getting intel and hitting target in time boxed environment has been the game changer in most of the cases. There was a Mullah (name I can't share) was missed in two occasions merely by few minutes; his meeting point and his buddies were wiped from face of the earth but luckily that bastard lived at both occasions. He was later

killed during a strike while he was on his way to native village few months later. Such missed opportunities are not acceptable; because whenever a scumbag is left its the ground forces that face its consequences.

Employing JF-17 is not necessary for PAF, more mature and networked systems are in place. If getting a combat tag was a need, US should have employed F-35s in Libya (if not Iraq and Afghanistan), the state-of-power of NATO targets in Libya were not much different than TTP.

Secondly, regarding JF-17 exports (I won't go in details of countries whose pilots have flown the simulator and recommended this a/c) following are my questions;

Is PAF requirement for Mirage/F-7 replacement fulfilled or say achieved till 80% targeted numbers?
Where is the infrastructure or production of export orders? Is PAC able to deliver both JF-17 to PAF and FC-1 for exports?

Lastly were the finances for JF-17 project agreed by PPP and PML Govt transferred? You cannot continuously produce these aircraft continuously on loans. The major chunk of finances on this project is still being burdened on Chinese.

Now in light of these above questions please enlighten me how 'PAF's failures are bigger than their successes'? What knowledge you have that I'm not aware of?

 

[MastanKhan]

My friend you have become cynical; either you are completely ignorant about the theme of these COIN operations or you have stopped reading and analysing. You misread my post, especially the area where I mentioned the reasons why JF-17 is not the best option for these operations. Here is what I wrote earlier.

Most of the strikes against TTP are conducted with support of comms coming from electronics currently configured on US origin fleet. Its not the 'combat-use-tag-on-JF17' that matters more than use of whats more required (both in terms of clearing weapons stores and associated finances related to operating cost of F-16s).

Now let me enlighten you regarding some facts..

The operation needs are more important then getting 'combat-tag' on JF-17. There are either fixed targets (high/low value) or moving high/low value targets. With current cleared weapons on JF-17 its favourable for fixed targets. These targets are mostly training centers, hideouts, weapons dump/stores etc; these are very
small in number; most of them have already been nuteralised. TTP don't have much left now.

Now comes the moving (HV/LV) target; As I already put this; F-16 and other a/c those are mapped onto link16/related electronics are favourable for these roles.
Getting intel and hitting target in time boxed environment has been the game changer in most of the cases. There was a Mullah (name I can't share) was missed in two occasions merely by few minutes; his meeting point and his buddies were wiped from face of the earth but luckily that bastard lived at both occasions. He was later

killed during a strike while he was on his way to native village few months later. Such missed opportunities are not acceptable; because whenever a scumbag is left its the ground forces that face its consequences.

Employing JF-17 is not necessary for PAF, more mature and networked systems are in place. If getting a combat tag was a need, US should have employed F-35s in Libya (if not Iraq and Afghanistan), the state-of-power of NATO targets in Libya were not much different than TTP.

Secondly, regarding JF-17 exports (I won't go in details of countries whose pilots have flown the simulator and recommended this a/c) following are my questions;

Is PAF requirement for Mirage/F-7 replacement fulfilled or say achieved till 80% targeted numbers?
Where is the infrastructure or production of export orders? Is PAC able to deliver both JF-17 to PAF and FC-1 for exports?

Lastly were the finances for JF-17 project agreed by PPP and PML Govt transferred? You cannot continuously produce these aircraft continuously on loans. The major chunk of finances on this project is still being burdened on Chinese.

Now in light of these above questions please enlighten me how 'PAF's failures are bigger than their successes'? What knowledge you have that I'm not aware of?

Sir,

You are going around in circles----trying to wing it left and right----. When you have a new aircraft that has been inducted into the air force----it has to be used for operations---regardless of it being coin operation or " currency ".

It is a silly explanation that all the strike missions were F16 specific---technically that is not possible---that shows a lack of flexibility of the system.

U S does not need to use any new aircrafts to make sales----it already has proven systems----pakistan otoh has no such foundations. Your examples are getting from bad too worst.

 

[Munir]

Sir,

You are going around in circles----trying to wing it left and right----. When you have a new aircraft that has been inducted into the air force----it has to be used for operations---regardless of it being coin operation or " currency ".

It is a silly explanation that all the strike missions were F16 specific---technically that is not possible---that shows a lack of flexibility of the system.

U S does not need to use any new aircrafts to make sales----it already has proven systems----pakistan otoh has no such foundations. Your examples are getting from bad too worst.

@MastanKhan

I think you are one of the few persons I still like to follow. You do ask logical and sometimes harsh but honest questions. But let me add some technical or management know how. It is as real and it does give you insight that is no longer a secret.

Our Block 1 squadrons are not even closely effective in the air to ground role as compared to our planes and pilots like Mirages and F16's. Surely they fly a lot and they are operational and even called ground support planes but the planes are not even BVR armed yet (they do posses integration of the SD10 but not SD10A and we never bought SD10 but SD10A...). Besides that the smart weapons are now going to be added to the block 2. Which you have seen is not even finished yet. And I agree with you that we have a question... Why did it take that long to produce 50 planes and evolve into Block 2... I think you know why if we look at the PPP (read Zardari) and PMLN (read looter Nawaz bheghairat). Without funding there is nothing... PPP looted it and used it for elections. Which they lost. And PMLN is even worser then mr 10% cause he is laughing and stealing like no other.

So I think we cannot use block 1 in anything else then close combat a2a. And since ttp or taleban have no planes to fight with... Yep. It is that simple. So why using JF17 with 1 or 2 dumb bombs with less accuracy if you can do it a lot safer and cheaper and effective....

Hope that explains your link between "prove system", JF17 or why not using operational something. Keep up the good postings.

 

[MastanKhan]

Munir,

Thank you for your post----. Likewise----you are one poster who does not automatically jump into the ' PROTECT PAF ' at all cost mode---but listens to the conversation.

I know that I had asked or made the statement as to why there were no ground strikes performed by the JF 17's which were grandly touted for ground strike missions---.

Now, if the JF 17 is a dedicated SD10A carrying card member---then why did the paf not come up with the thought of performing a few ground strike missions by this aircraft to keep the opponents guessing----deceit and deception is the job of fighting forces.

 

[Munir]

Munir,

Thank you for your post----. Likewise----you are one poster who does not automatically jump into the ' PROTECT PAF ' at all cost mode---but listens to the conversation.

I know that I had asked or made the statement as to why there were no ground strikes performed by the JF 17's which were grandly touted for ground strike missions---.

Now, if the JF 17 is a dedicated SD10A carrying card member---then why did the paf not come up with the thought of performing a few ground strike missions by this aircraft to keep the opponents guessing----deceit and deception is the job of fighting forces.

Like any other airforce PAF is bounded by budget, political will and a lot more strings. And there are good and not so good people. We are nu superior race... But we do have superb pilots and probably very good engineers... But the management could be a lot better...

The JF17 block 2 will be carrying SD10A. Sofar we have none block 2 and a few block 1 upgraded...

Why would you let a not so good plane do a2g if it is not integrated with better then dumb bombs? The whole idea is minimal risk of killing others then the bad guys on the ground. You need good pods to scan and track and even better weapons to hit it perfectly. At the moment you do not posses these abilities in JF17.

In you language. . Here you have a Maserati on the track... But you have also build something like BMW 3. You have to race and end up in the top. Would you use your Maserati with all the whistles or just BMW 3 with no turbo compressor and a lot less CC?

The Indians like to say that their LCA is 4+... Some of our side think that JF17 is already finished and good product. Surely JF17 is moving ahead but it needs a few years and like the F16A needed time and money to move to Block52, the JF17 will need block3-4 to really come close.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi Munir,

In the end it confirms that INTEGRATION is a long and tedious process---specially for a FIRST TIME SYSTEM.

I like the display of a cloak of uncertainty around the JF17----.

 

[aliyusuf]

Thank you @Munir for laying this out so plainly and honestly and thanks to @MastanKhan for being right all along (as usual) that the Thunder still needs a ways to go to really be a viable platform.

 

[Storm Force]

If Push comes to Shove

And PAF needs to complete a mission be it a strike mission or AIR SUPERIORITY in a one OFF ENGAGEMENT against india,

THEY WILL SEND THE BEST MOST TRUSTED PLATFORM.

The formidable F16/52.

That will remain the way until JF17 hits a decade of use and block version 3

 

[Windjammer]

If Push comes to Shove

And PAF needs to complete a mission be it a strike mission or AIR SUPERIORITY in a one OFF ENGAGEMENT against india,

THEY WILL SEND THE BEST MOST TRUSTED PLATFORM.

The formidable F16/52.

That will remain the way until JF17 hits a decade of use and block version 3

You have conveniently ignored the fact that JF-17 is not being inducted as a supplement but rather as replacement for the likes of F-7 and Mirages...... it's naive to assume that all of India's missions will be carried out by MKI.....since that's allegedly your best platform.