JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 6]

[araz]

Well here is some General Specification of AL-31F(WS-10) and RD-33(WS-13) :

• Length: 4,990 millimeters (196 in) / 4,229 mm (166.50 in)
• Diameter: 905 millimeters (35.6 in) / 1,000 mm (39.37 in)
• Dry weight: 1,570 kilograms (3,460 lb) / 1,055 kg (2,326 lb)

I am not saying that it will be easy job to exchange engine just like that but what the gain is, i think we should do the hard work for it.

Well here is some General Specification of AL-31F(WS-10) and RD-33(WS-13) :

• Length: 4,990 millimeters (196 in) / 4,229 mm (166.50 in)
• Diameter: 905 millimeters (35.6 in) / 1,000 mm (39.37 in)
• Dry weight: 1,570 kilograms (3,460 lb) / 1,055 kg (2,326 lb)

I am not saying that it will be easy job to exchange engine just like that but what the gain is, i think we should do the hard work for it.

In aviation you dont make changes unnecessarily. Firstly I think your figures may well be incorrect as AL31 is a bigger engine. You may also remember that the JFT was designed with multiple engines in mind. AL31 was not one of them. PAF currently has an agreement for RD 93 and it works beautifully on the plane. One would be a fool to upset the apple cart just on someone's whim. Most our fleet is obsolete and we need fighters lime yesterday and what is being suggested will perhaps set us back upto 2 yrs which we can't afford. So there is no need to change engine on the JFT at this point in time.
Araz

 

[Max Pain]

Sir you are breaking heart of many Pakistani .

he's rational and realistic, something we Pakistani's lack vehemently. when emotions took over we started to witness the adverse affects

 

[Max Pain]

Hi,

Thank you. First of all---used F16's are not available to everyone---those certain nations are also concerned about sanctions as well.

I think that paf should let china do the sales part---so that Pakistan is not blamed for selling certain systems that the u s and the west may not like and that way keep the heat away from Pakistan.

Also current problems have created a bigger urgency---and there may not be any units available for sale to foreign buyers.

Other nations are also waiting for the more powerful Chinese engine as well---which they may not need---but you know----it is all about the horse power nowadays.

But first of all---Pakistan needs to have a package for its air force---the first 3 sqdrn's need to be designated the job they are designed for---once that designation is given---then it makes it easier focus on what you want to sell and for others for what they want to buy.

Paf should also take this aircraft away form the market for awhile---it should have been very selective to whom it showed the aircraft right from gitgo.

This aircraft is designed by the air force for the pilot----all other air forces don't do things they want ---they look at aircrafts thru their procurement department.

The price should not have been touted as cheap or should not have been disclosed----when nations make major purchases and get kick backs----some of the times these are not kick backs but money for BLACK PROJECTS---.

So---all in all---a very bad and cheap campaign by the paf to sell this plane.

so according to you some leased J-11's would suffice now?
hypothetically speaking, if the tensions with India along the LOC somehow diffuse and the situation reaches some moderate levels, what do you think should be the ideal options for the AF in the long run, will the J-11's suffice in the long run?

 

[IrbiS]

A RARE & BEAUTIFUL PIC OF THUNDER(Courtesy: Alan Warnes, AirForces Daily)

Resplendent in Pakistan’s national colour is JF-17 is 09-111 flown by the ‘Black Spiders’ at Peshawar. The JF-17 will play a big part in the PAF’s future strategy. AFD-Alan WarnesResplendent in Pakistan’s national colour is JF-17 is 09-111 flown by the ‘Black Spiders’ at Peshawar. The JF-17 will play a big part in the PAF’s future strategy. AFD-Alan Warnes

 

[IrbiS]

FRANKLY if our leaders had guts which they don't I would have ditched the 16s and gone for the Chinese canard fighter or better still 2 squadrons of Su35s/J11/15/16s and lets be done with it. However once you have become a beggar it is really difficult to come out of the rut and choose an independent path. Since this lot of pimps wont do it PAF will remain the keep of uncle sam and we will survive on handouts.
Araz

“We continue to evaluate various possibilities of other weapon systems including fighter aircraft. Depending upon the options and availability of funds, some inductions could possibly materialize in the not too distant future”. said Air Chief last october.
It's always funds! I agree with you, In recent years I've been longing that PAF should maintain a wing of heavies with specialization Air-to-Air role.SU-35 with best sensor and weapons suite possible would be great which now can be made possible politically speaking. But we can't be be sure what planners are thinking.Maybe they are programming leapfrogging directly in to the next generation.

 

[Hurter]

How many JF-17 have we got as for now? I've just seen on Wikipedia that its 72. But we were suppose to get only 50 from Block-I

 

[araz]

“We continue to evaluate various possibilities of other weapon systems including fighter aircraft. Depending upon the options and availability of funds, some inductions could possibly materialize in the not too distant future”. said Air Chief last october.
It's always funds! I agree with you, In recent years I've been longing that PAF should maintain a wing of heavies with specialization Air-to-Air role.SU-35 with best sensor and weapons suite possible would be great which now can be made possible politically speaking. But we can't be be sure what planners are thinking.Maybe they are programming leapfrogging directly in to the next generation.

That would seem to be the plan
Shore up defences with JFTs and 16s MLUed and wait for the opening into 5th gen fighters. SU35 means no F31in 2025. So this in my view is the game plan. Obviously it all depends on multiple factors. Interestingly PAF were offered bl30/40 fighters instead of the 14 embargoed bl. 15s but opted not to get them. I wonder whether they will change their mind now that the 52s have settled in their new homes. My thinking is that new 52s along with 2 squadrons of MLUed bl 32/ 42 might be what PAF has to settle for.
Araz

 

[Donatello]

“We continue to evaluate various possibilities of other weapon systems including fighter aircraft. Depending upon the options and availability of funds, some inductions could possibly materialize in the not too distant future”. said Air Chief last october.
It's always funds! I agree with you, In recent years I've been longing that PAF should maintain a wing of heavies with specialization Air-to-Air role.SU-35 with best sensor and weapons suite possible would be great which now can be made possible politically speaking. But we can't be be sure what planners are thinking.Maybe they are programming leapfrogging directly in to the next generation.

SU35 is not going to come to Pakistan, because it will have to come directly from Russia. The best bet for heavy fighter is Chinese J-11 or J-16, that too for Maritime roles and Air Superior roles. However, it will be easier to get more MLU-ed F-16s and exercise the 18 F-16 BLK52 option.

 

[IrbiS]

That would seem to be the plan
Shore up defences with JFTs and 16s MLUed and wait for the opening into 5th gen fighters. SU35 means no F31in 2025. So this in my view is the game plan. Obviously it all depends on multiple factors. Interestingly PAF were offered bl30/40 fighters instead of the 14 embargoed bl. 15s but opted not to get them. I wonder whether they will change their mind now that the 52s have settled in their new homes. My thinking is that new 52s along with 2 squadrons of MLUed bl 32/ 42 might be what PAF has to settle for.
Araz

SU35 is not going to come to Pakistan, because it will have to come directly from Russia. The best bet for heavy fighter is Chinese J-11 or J-16, that too for Maritime roles and Air Superior roles. However, it will be easier to get more MLU-ed F-16s and exercise the 18 F-16 BLK52 option.

It was pure speculation and my wish. I know the reality but sometime, you gotta open your heart!
Netherlands 'll be retiring its falcons in coming years and Pakistan has officially offered to buy them plus we could get some from Turkey in future IF they downsize fleet after f-35 induction or maybe U.S. In the end its U.S who 'll decide either we get any or no from anyone.

 

[Donatello]

It was pure speculation and my wish. I know the reality but sometime, you gotta open your heart!
Netherlands 'll be retiring its falcons in coming years and Pakistan has officially offered to buy them plus we could get some from Turkey in future IF they downsize fleet after f-35 induction or maybe U.S. In the end its U.S who 'll decide either we get any or no from anyone.

That is true, lots of F-16s will be freeing up, but we want strike capability within one year. Just like the 14 ex-Jordanian F-16s. Cut the deal, fly them home.

 

[IrbiS]

How many JF-17 have we got as for now? I've just seen on Wikipedia that its 72. But we were suppose to get only 50 from Block-I

You should look again carefully it can't be 72. 6 prototypes were built, then 2 and 6 small batch production aircraft were given plus 42 more ordered and delivered. which makes 50 production aircraft minus 1 attrition 49(excluding any block 2 completed or uncompleted)

That is true, lots of F-16s will be freeing up, but we want strike capability within one year. Just like the 14 ex-Jordanian F-16s. Cut the deal, fly them home.

13 of them if I'm right.This version is optimized for air to air role.This deal was also possible after U.S gave a go ahead.Because any country can't sell its F-16s to other one without U.S permission.

 

[MastanKhan]

so according to you some leased J-11's would suffice now?
hypothetically speaking, if the tensions with India along the LOC somehow diffuse and the situation reaches some moderate levels, what do you think should be the ideal options for the AF in the long run, will the J-11's suffice in the long run?

Hi,

If it reaches moderate levels----then find ways to resolves issues, make peace and sign the dotted line.

By J 11----I mean the latest version of this aircraft. Pakistan needs at least 2 to 3 sqdrn's of heavy strike and air superiority air dominance fighter aircraft immediately under the current circumstances.

Other than that----your numbers of JF 17's and f16's would need to be increased. Another 2 to 3 sqdrn's of F16's blk 52 mlu.

Make a deal-------Get rid of Dr Shakeel Afridi----get 3 sqdrn's of blk 52's or equivalent mlu'd----and the 3 frigates being decommissioned with all its current equipment.

The number of F16's need to be increased to 150 in stock on a fastrak pace.

Instead of a lean and mean air force of around 300 to 350----the changing times need it to be power projecting 500 +++. A minimum of 250---300 aesa equipped JF 17's----150 F16's-----and at least 50 heavies.

Your next gen aircraft would be a J31 or J20 whatever it is----which is possibly 10--12 years from now.

Get some HQ9 batteries----.

There is always strength in quality----but there is also strength in numbers when matched with quality----. The JF 17 is a must with AESA. This radar has its own magic.

Last but not the least-----a coward must not be a leader---Nawaz must go----. He is a gutless coward----has no backbone---he is a peacenik---he would degrade his military in front of the world just to show that he is peace loving---.

I wish his younger brother Shahbaz would have the guts to lead.

The bottomline is that it s the leader the opponent fears the most---everything else is complimentary----.

 

[monitor]

 

[Sulman Badshah]

How many JF-17 have we got as for now? I've just seen on Wikipedia that its 72. But we were suppose to get only 50 from Block-I

50 Now ... 1 Squadron after azm e nau 2014

 

[MastanKhan]

Mastan Khan.
Thank you for the response. I wont start a debate with you as you and I have known stance on the issues.The Boing deal was a catastrophe and someone should be held to account for this. However may I simply remind you that the game had been a foot even before as your aunty Joan did screw you by withholding both the last Augusta and the M3s which were being ROSE upgraded at that time. In my view the Rafale was always out of PAFs league. They don't have a love affair with the 16s either but it is simply a question of covering your backs in the most economical way. 16s deal now may well be 5yrs behind the schedule but again it is the most economical way of passing time till what you are really looking for materialises. I think we may yet have at least 2 squadrons of MLUed 16s and a further squadron of 52s to set us up for 2025.But all of this depends on how well we lick Uncle Sam,s nether regions and tow the line on WOT.
FRANKLY if our leaders had guts which they don't I would have ditched the 16s and gone for the Chinese canard fighter or better still 2 squadrons of Su35s/J11/15/16s and lets be done with it. However once you have become a beggar it is really difficult to come out of the rut and choose an independent path. Since this lot of pimps wont do it PAF will remain the keep of uncle sam and we will survive on handouts.
Araz

Hi,

Indeed the F16 deal is the force multiplier even if it is 5 years behind----thanks to the other side---or we would have been screwed.

My position has been to never ditch the F16-----we have a love / hate relationship with the u s and we need to keep the relationship as hard as it may be. Our problem has been with how to talk with the americans in their language.

There is nothing wrong with having a love affair with the F16----it is a fantastic aircraft with superior weapons systems for strike and air superiority---.

One of the problems with paf has been that it has been a REACTIVE air force in its decision making---once they feel that the threat level is dissipating----they make believe that it has disappeared---and that has caused them to make blunders by cancelling procurements or delaying them.

They need to understand that if the threat is dissipating---then if they move ahead with their procurement----they will get a step ahead of the game.

As I mentioned in the other post---Pakistan needs tp change its stance from minimum aircraft ( 350 ) needed for deterrence to maximum aircraft ( 500 + ) needed for air superiority.

500-550 is the magic number for the paf for frontline aircraft excluding the mirage 3 / 5 and F7 PG's-----.

IAF will never be able to bring in 2 1/2 to 3 times the numbers on the Pakistan front to overwhelm paf----and paf on the other hand can procure 500 aircraft within the 5 years time period or sooner----.

If paf can reach those numbers in 3 to 4 years---then it can instigate a limited war---.

350 is a lean and mean air force----500 is a hard hitting right in your face kind of air force