JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 6]

[AFlover]

With this firing across the Loc---india has lowered the bar for a serious conflict---Pakistan had nothing much to show except for a threat of tactical nucs if things went out of control.

Actually right now---an induction of a couple of sqdrn's of J11's would be a tremendous relief----even a sqdrn strength now and 1 later.



You are right----I had written on another thread---there are problems somewhere in the stars----it is a direct message to Mr Modi----an aircraft with an excellent flight history suddenly falls out of the blue skies like a rock onto the ground---when there are threats being delivered of 10 times the response----it s a show stopper.

Agreed that in the current threat perception PAF has nothing except Block-52. I also believe that PAF should have long range fightr like J11 r J16 but keeping in mind the geographical situation and & pakistan relations with the three neighbors(I-A-I) i think PAF should change it policy of the current squarden strength we should raise another 5-6 squardens with another type of 4.5gen fighter this will also reduce the numerical gap that the enemy enjoy curently

 

[ssethii]

I have just noticed that jf-17 has a straight horizontal spine which looks so ordinary. If it was a painting i would say the artist was too lazy to do it by hand and instead used a ruler to finish it off.

 

[Donatello]

French screwed us over JF-17 avionics (or lack of funds, official stance). bfrench romance with India, there remains no difference b/w Uncle Sam Axe and Aunty Joan axe

Not really. During the sanctions saga of 1990s, they were more than happy to supply Agostas, refit/support for older Agostas/Daphne, and take on the ROSE project. So much so, that after their 11 men were killed in that brutal bus bombing, they did not leave, but rather continued to work. Even if today, Pakistan grabbed those Mirages, French would still supply. Hey, India has not even signed the Rafale deal yet. If they had sold the avionics, they would have made 1.5 billion USD already......I am sure they are having second thoughts about the decision.

Nope. The F-16 is still the better all round fighter.

Agreed, but Mirage2000-9 still cuts it very close, not to mention in the ground attack/anti ship role.

Agreed that in the current threat perception PAF has nothing except Block-52. I also believe that PAF should have long range fightr like J11 r J16 but keeping in mind the geographical situation and & pakistan relations with the three neighbors(I-A-I) i think PAF should change it policy of the current squarden strength we should raise another 5-6 squardens with another type of 4.5gen fighter this will also reduce the numerical gap that the enemy enjoy curently

Unless the Government releases 4-5 billion USD today, that is not going to happen. There are some privatizations coming up to beef up government coffers, you may never know though. My bet is, keep the F-16s as it is, go after the UAE Mirages as they become available, and get J-11 for Maritime role, based in Karachi/Gwader. JF-17 can continue to evolve. But it is much easier said than done.

 

[MastanKhan]

French screwed us over JF-17 avionics (or lack of funds, official stance). bfrench romance with India, there remains no difference b/w Uncle Sam Axe and Aunty Joan axe

Hi,

Actually it was us that screwed Aunty Joan over and not the other way---she just paid us back with interest.

Pakistan was in advanced talks to buy air bus-----but then boeing came into picture with the romise of direct flight to the u s from Pakistan and pak walked away from a pretty much done air bus deal---French were not happy.

French always romanced Pakistan more than india----. Who gave you the most advanced submarine system in asia----your aip agosta 90's were the most advanced in the region than anyone else.

French knew you had the money inn 2002----they knew that they had given you the best submarine tech in the region---they were expecting to be rewarded with the rafale contract as well---ad yu walked away from that as well.

You killed the French engineers building these boats in your backyard and you let the criminals go free. Who are the disgusting people over here---Pakistanis----public of Karachi----where was the cry for the revenge of French engineers---.

Those 17 innocent laid their lives for you and what have you done for them-----. You even let the terrs kidnap Chinese national and engineers and you paks did not do anything----for your all weather friends----. About two years ago---china had given an ultimatum to Pakistan----shape up or move out----too much f Chinese aid was going to paks personal accounts----well then issues starting popping up with Chinese neighbors and china calmed down,

So you dont think that the MLUes and the ADAs are any good? Please elaborate.
Araz

Araz,

Off course they are good----but they are 5 to 8 years behind the clock---these should have been done years ago----but there are not enough of them today.

 

[MastanKhan]

Agreed that in the current threat perception PAF has nothing except Block-52. I also believe that PAF should have long range fightr like J11 r J16 but keeping in mind the geographical situation and & pakistan relations with the three neighbors(I-A-I) i think PAF should change it policy of the current squarden strength we should raise another 5-6 squardens with another type of 4.5gen fighter this will also reduce the numerical gap that the enemy enjoy curently

Hi,

You are correct in your assessment---pak needs a lot more aircraft than it thinks---at least a 100 more than anticiated. And the JF 17 is the perfect aircraft for that purpose to watch the flank ( Iran ) and the back ( afg ) --- but they desperately need a heavy with the like of J11 to protect Karachi and its assets---.

Strategically---Karachi is the heart and soul of Pakistan regardless what anyone says---. If your one frontline aircraft ( F 16 ) fails under certain conditions---at least you have a second to fall back upon.

Maybe pak should consider leasing some from china for a short term.

 

[HRK]

Hi,

You are correct in your assessment---pak needs a lot more aircraft than it thinks---at least a 100 more than anticiated. And the JF 17 is the perfect aircraft for that purpose to watch the flank ( Iran ) and the back ( afg ) --- but they desperately need a heavy with the like of J11 to protect Karachi and its assets---.

Strategically---Karachi is the heart and soul of Pakistan regardless what anyone says---. If your one frontline aircraft ( F 16 ) fails under certain conditions---at least you have a second to fall back upon.

Maybe pak should consider leasing some from china for a short term.

Su-30MKI enjoy the same status in Indian Air Force as F-16 in PAF, the IAF has been flying it for some time, for me any derivative of Su-27 like J-11 would not carry any surprise element against India, so would that a wise decision to go for another 4th or 4++ generation fighter...??

Though I agree we need a heavy air superiority fighter.

 

[Saifullah]

Wa alaikum as salam.
Bhai firstly none of the engines that you have mentioned are in mass production. There are serious problems reported with WS10. The problems mean a much shortened life and MTBO. Secondly even if there were no problems WS10 is far too big for JFT and would be unsuitable for many reasons.
Araz

Araz

Well here is some General Specification of AL-31F(WS-10) and RD-33(WS-13) :

• Length: 4,990 millimeters (196 in) / 4,229 mm (166.50 in)
• Diameter: 905 millimeters (35.6 in) / 1,000 mm (39.37 in)
• Dry weight: 1,570 kilograms (3,460 lb) / 1,055 kg (2,326 lb)

I am not saying that it will be easy job to exchange engine just like that but what the gain is, i think we should do the hard work for it.

 

[thrilainmanila]

Hi,

You are correct in your assessment---pak needs a lot more aircraft than it thinks---at least a 100 more than anticiated. And the JF 17 is the perfect aircraft for that purpose to watch the flank ( Iran ) and the back ( afg ) --- but they desperately need a heavy with the like of J11 to protect Karachi and its assets---.

Strategically---Karachi is the heart and soul of Pakistan regardless what anyone says---. If your one frontline aircraft ( F 16 ) fails under certain conditions---at least you have a second to fall back upon.

Maybe pak should consider leasing some from china for a short term.

The only thing that makes sense is buying more F-16s, buying the J-11,J10 makes no sense The J-10 isn't proven (neither is the JF-17 but having 2 unproven aircraft makes no sense), The J-11 would be a logistical nightmare, I think the PAF needs to use the JF-17 as a bargaining chip for countries who are operating the F-16s, perhaps selling the JF-17s with some supporting infrastructure will allow PAF to buy F-16s for throw away prices from countries like Venezuela, indonesia, Oman and Egypt.

 

[graphican]

The only thing that makes sense is buying more F-16s, buying the J-11,J10 makes no sense The J-10 isn't proven (neither is the JF-17 but having 2 unproven aircraft makes no sense), The J-11 would be a logistical nightmare, I think the PAF needs to use the JF-17 as a bargaining chip for countries who are operating the F-16s, perhaps selling the JF-17s with some supporting infrastructure will allow PAF to buy F-16s for throw away prices from countries like Venezuela, indonesia, Oman and Egypt.

There is an opportunity for PAF to learn from automobile sector. Brands like Toyota, Honda, Mazda, Nissan etc are all comparable and target same potential market. Their business comes from adopting secondary strategies. They earn less in direct sale but earn more from parts, service and selling you secondary goods like add-ons and extended warranties. Point is that once your platform w is sold, you get continuous earning in the form of service, gadgets, add-on and upgrades. Thus selling a platform at less direct profit will be the right strategy.

For Aviation Industry of China/Pakistan, the challenge is not just to sell a dependable platform but to changing the defense paradigms of customer nations. USA and Russia are two main resource countries and creating a perception that China/Pakistan (or India for example) is another reliable resource is a big asking in itself. It is not just about the performance of a platform but who else is using that platform also matters. PAF was able to keep its F-16 fleet working because there were countries who were using F-16s and despite direct sanctions from the supplier, customer nations were able to help and our platform kept operating. Friendly nations sharing such platform also help you in training and building tactics and for a defense/offense platform, that is valuable.

Countries evaluating JF-17 will be thinking about 10s of parameters including performance, cost, potential, upgrade, freedom of use, training, support in the case of war, sustainability and strategic aspects. We should have no doubt about the performance of JF-17 that PAF is turning down J-10s after having own it - but lets not forget that for other nations, its not just the platform, economy or performance but the purchase equation has several equally valuable components which need to be satisfied - as well.

I am sure whoever evaluates JF-17 would be asking "why should I not buy used F-16s from USA for $18 million a piece instead" ? If you can satisfy this answer first, you can start talking about performance, cost and other good aspects of JF-17s.

 

[MastanKhan]

The only thing that makes sense is buying more F-16s, buying the J-11,J10 makes no sense The J-10 isn't proven (neither is the JF-17 but having 2 unproven aircraft makes no sense), The J-11 would be a logistical nightmare, I think the PAF needs to use the JF-17 as a bargaining chip for countries who are operating the F-16s, perhaps selling the JF-17s with some supporting infrastructure will allow PAF to buy F-16s for throw away prices from countries like Venezuela, indonesia, Oman and Egypt.

Hi,

JF 17 won't sell right now----buyers want to see the final version before they make the decision----. J 10 is inferior to our BLK 52---so there is no reason for that.

So---under today's scenario---the rafale would have been the best bet when pak had the opportunity---now if they lease a few J11's---maybe.

 

[syedali73]

Hi,

JF 17 won't sell right now----buyers want to see the final version before they make the decision----. J 10 is inferior to our BLK 52---so there is no reason for that.

So---under today's scenario---the rafale would have been the best bet when pak had the opportunity---now if they lease a few J11's---maybe.

Mastan Saheb, lately you have made some excellent and very compelling posts especially regarding French and I learnt a great deal. Thanks.

Now as far as "buyers want to see the final version before they make the decision" is concerned, you are right again but I guess the reply from @graphican i.e. "I am sure whoever evaluates JF-17 would be asking 'why should I not buy used F-16s from USA for $18 million a piece instead?' " is compelling and seriously thought-provoking.

 

[MastanKhan]

Mastan Saheb, lately you have made some excellent and very compelling posts especially regarding French and I learnt a great deal. Thanks.

Now as far as "buyers want to see the final version before they make the decision" is concerned, you are right again but I guess the reply from @graphican i.e. "I am sure whoever evaluates JF-17 would be asking 'why should I not buy used F-16s from USA for $18 million a piece instead?' " is compelling and seriously thought-provoking.

Hi,

Thank you. First of all---used F16's are not available to everyone---those certain nations are also concerned about sanctions as well.

I think that paf should let china do the sales part---so that Pakistan is not blamed for selling certain systems that the u s and the west may not like and that way keep the heat away from Pakistan.

Also current problems have created a bigger urgency---and there may not be any units available for sale to foreign buyers.

Other nations are also waiting for the more powerful Chinese engine as well---which they may not need---but you know----it is all about the horse power nowadays.

But first of all---Pakistan needs to have a package for its air force---the first 3 sqdrn's need to be designated the job they are designed for---once that designation is given---then it makes it easier focus on what you want to sell and for others for what they want to buy.

Paf should also take this aircraft away form the market for awhile---it should have been very selective to whom it showed the aircraft right from gitgo.

This aircraft is designed by the air force for the pilot----all other air forces don't do things they want ---they look at aircrafts thru their procurement department.

The price should not have been touted as cheap or should not have been disclosed----when nations make major purchases and get kick backs----some of the times these are not kick backs but money for BLACK PROJECTS---.

So---all in all---a very bad and cheap campaign by the paf to sell this plane.

 

[fatman17]

already posted people....eyes wide shut.

 

[My-Analogous]

Hi,

It is not about the decision being wrong----. The JF 17 in any form with its current size will not take us any where extraordinary without the presence of heavy fighter aircraft to cover the point and provide protection.

Look back at history----. The only reason the larger german tank got cornered was the sheer number of smaller American tanks. Only if paf can have 300 + JF 17 with aesa + the Bk 52 f 16's---I agree---it is a great setup for awhile----but what abut NOWWWWWW.

An ever present cloud of war is a " NOW " problem. The enemy is not going to wait till when you are fully prepared.

It is just like saying-----" My house is going to be robbed tonite----but I am going to get a gun tomorrow ".

 

[araz]

Hi,

Actually it was us that screwed Aunty Joan over and not the other way---she just paid us back with interest.

Pakistan was in advanced talks to buy air bus-----but then boeing came into picture with the romise of direct flight to the u s from Pakistan and pak walked away from a pretty much done air bus deal---French were not happy.

French always romanced Pakistan more than india----. Who gave you the most advanced submarine system in asia----your aip agosta 90's were the most advanced in the region than anyone else.

French knew you had the money inn 2002----they knew that they had given you the best submarine tech in the region---they were expecting to be rewarded with the rafale contract as well---ad yu walked away from that as well.



Araz,

Off course they are good----but they are 5 to 8 years behind the clock---these should have been done years ago----but there are not enough of them today.

Mastan Khan.
Thank you for the response. I wont start a debate with you as you and I have known stance on the issues.The Boing deal was a catastrophe and someone should be held to account for this. However may I simply remind you that the game had been a foot even before as your aunty Joan did screw you by withholding both the last Augusta and the M3s which were being ROSE upgraded at that time. In my view the Rafale was always out of PAFs league. They don't have a love affair with the 16s either but it is simply a question of covering your backs in the most economical way. 16s deal now may well be 5yrs behind the schedule but again it is the most economical way of passing time till what you are really looking for materialises. I think we may yet have at least 2 squadrons of MLUed 16s and a further squadron of 52s to set us up for 2025.But all of this depends on how well we lick Uncle Sam,s nether regions and tow the line on WOT.
FRANKLY if our leaders had guts which they don't I would have ditched the 16s and gone for the Chinese canard fighter or better still 2 squadrons of Su35s/J11/15/16s and lets be done with it. However once you have become a beggar it is really difficult to come out of the rut and choose an independent path. Since this lot of pimps wont do it PAF will remain the keep of uncle sam and we will survive on handouts.
Araz