JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 6]

[silent hawk]

Sir, nice post.
Can you share what you learnt about the specs and cost of the air craft at the Xi'an Aircraft Industrial Corporation?

So that we can better understand your point of view in the light of what you have learnt over there.

Hi,
The cost of the JH7B s no different than the cost of the Blk2-3 JF17----but it gives a massive punch for the dollar that is paid----.
As for the Paf---it has been hijacked by fighter mafia----so when they see a heavy bomber / fighter---they just go numb and look the different way.
As I have stated often----to whatever it may count to---JF17 is the best bang for the buck but it is the bang at the lowest tiers of strength----. When the enemy is 3 times the size---you also need sledge hammers to clear the way thru----.
We need a pneumatic hammer to do the job---the JF17 is a hand held chisel and hammer.
So---please don't tell me about the strategy and the intellect of the PAF. This organization has failed to do its duty----. 14 years it has been---its job was to find the air superiority aircraft needed to take charge of the air space.
JF17 is not going to make much of a difference unless complimented with a heavy----. Like the F16's with the F15's.

AoA

Very interesting reply. The cost is more. It is a pretty advanced aircraft and twin engine increases the cost. Was in the 50 mil + range.

Bomber & Attack Aircraft - Military Equipment

The fighter mafia portion I would tend to agree with. Prevents us from acquiring SAMs as well.

In the F-16 , F-15 scenario the F-16 were the heavy. At present PAF would go for JF-17 escorted by F-16. India would be Jaguars or M2K escorted by MKI. They have a stronger punch. Then again they are offensive defensive while we are defensive offensive. Hence the Clausawitz issue and your accusation of PAF fighting from a position of weakness.

So your perspective makes sense. We need the hammer. If we need it the cost does not matter.

I was also told about the H-6K at Xian would that be better than the JH7B?

 

[MastanKhan]

AoA

Very interesting reply. The cost is more. It is a pretty advanced aircraft and twin engine increases the cost. Was in the 50 mil + range.

Bomber & Attack Aircraft - Military Equipment

The fighter mafia portion I would tend to agree with. Prevents us from acquiring SAMs as well.

In the F-16 , F-15 scenario the F-16 were the heavy. At present PAF would go for JF-17 escorted by F-16. India would be Jaguars or M2K escorted by MKI. They have a stronger punch. Then again they are offensive defensive while we are defensive offensive. Hence the Clausawitz issue and your accusation of PAF fighting from a position of weakness.

So your perspective makes sense. We need the hammer. If we need it the cost does not matter.

I was also told about the H-6K at Xian would that be better than the JH7B?

Hi,

Thank you for your post---here is a very interesting read----

JH-7B | Tiananmen's Tremendous Achievements

 

[silent hawk]

Hi,

Thank you for your post---here is a very interesting read----

JH-7B | Tiananmen's Tremendous Achievements

AoA

The case for a dedicated bomber makes sense.

The strategic bomber H-6K looks like a game changer to me. With a similar price tag.

The capability enhancement would be tremendous.

Would you recommend the H-6K or the JH-7B for the PAF?

 

[MastanKhan]

I was also told about the H-6K at Xian would that be better than the JH7B?

Hi,

H6K is a dedicated bomber----but then some in the UK were expecting Pakistan to buy the bombers that the british retired in the mid 2000.

I have read somewhere and am missing it right now---that the japanese have done some research and they are of a mindset of having a 3rd gen heavy aircraft refurbished to carry a maximum BVR load.

On the similar grounds---the F15 manufacturer just displayed last week an F15 with a modified 16 BVR missile load capability.

So here is what is happening----the americans know that the F35 can carry only a certain load and same is the case with the F22----they know that the enemy is going to swarm them---.

They know that it is next to impossible to target the F35 r the F22---so the F35's and F22 are going to go into the battle deep with these aircraft and then with the secure link---they will lock and launch bvr missiles or AShM's or LRASM from the host aircraft.

Boeing preparing F-15 able to carry 16 air-to-air missiles?


When you click on this thread---then please read what Jim Love as to say in the comments section---just simply blows the mind.

That is what I have been saying----you cannot fight the F35 and the F22---then produce better BVR missiles and better electronics---jammers and sensors that can find these aircraft or the supporting aircraft.

Now this tech maybe with the Chinese and the russina---and then there are mortals like Pakistan who has to go into combat. You cannot depend on the high kill ratio of your 2 aim120's anymore----when the enemy can lob 10 BVR 's at you.

AoA

The case for a dedicated bomber makes sense.

The strategic bomber H-6K looks like a game changer to me. With a similar price tag.

The capability enhancement would be tremendous.

Would you recommend the H-6K or the JH-7B for the PAF?

Hi,

My first choice is the JH7B---because of the variety that it offers----it can launch all the BVR arsenal that the Chinese offer---it will have a massive aesa radar basically the same size as that of the J11---it can be oaded up with jammers nd take on the role of a growler type aircraft---or just a bomber on a strike mission

What the most attrative part of this aircraft is that Pakistan can mount the babur cruise missile on this arcraft---and wallah---you have your ALCM---. If the ground launch version of the Babur is 750 KM---then the same missile launched from the air would reach at least 1200 to 1500 Km.

Based at dalbandin they fly straight down---refuel over Gwadar go straight down and then make a right turn---and there is maharshtra and south india---you get closer---you can use your Ra'ad---you can use other smart bombs---you can use CM400AKG's against ships---and you can have an escort than can carry 8-10 bvr missiles as well.

This aircraft gives you more control of the ocean beneath you---the capability to carry between 2--4 CM400AKG AShM is a massive punch---just look at tis map---this aircraft is as suitable for the Pakistan navy and protecting the sea lanes as it is for china

 

[silent hawk]

Hi,

H6K is a dedicated bomber----but then some in the UK were expecting Pakistan to buy the bombers that the british retired in the mid 2000.

I have read somewhere and am missing it right now---that the japanese have done some research and they are of a mindset of having a 3rd gen heavy aircraft refurbished to carry a maximum BVR load.

On the similar grounds---the F15 manufacturer just displayed last week an F15 with a modified 16 BVR missile load capability.

So here is what is happening----the americans know that the F35 can carry only a certain load and same is the case with the F22----they know that the enemy is going to swarm them---.

They know that it is next to impossible to target the F35 r the F22---so the F35's and F22 are going to go into the battle deep with these aircraft and then with the secure link---they will lock and launch bvr missiles or AShM's or LRASM from the host aircraft.

Boeing preparing F-15 able to carry 16 air-to-air missiles?


When you click on this thread---then please read what Jim Love as to say in the comments section---just simply blows the mind.

That is what I have been saying----you cannot fight the F35 and the F22---then produce better BVR missiles and better electronics---jammers and sensors that can find these aircraft or the supporting aircraft.

Now this tech maybe with the Chinese and the russina---and then there are mortals like Pakistan who has to go into combat. You cannot depend on the high kill ratio of your 2 aim120's anymore----when the enemy can lob 10 BVR 's at you.




Hi,

My first choice is the JH7B---because of the variety that it offers----it can launch all the BVR arsenal that the Chinese offer---it will have a massive aesa radar basically the same size as that of the J11---it can be oaded up with jammers nd take on the role of a growler type aircraft---or just a bomber on a strike mission

What the most attrative part of this aircraft is that Pakistan can mount the babur cruise missile on this arcraft---and wallah---you have your ALCM---. If the ground launch version of the Babur is 750 KM---then the same missile launched from the air would reach at least 1200 to 1500 Km.

Based at dalbandin they fly straight down---refuel over Gwadar go straight down and then make a right turn---and there is maharshtra and south india---you get closer---you can use your Ra'ad---you can use other smart bombs---you can use CM400AKG's against ships---and you can have an escort than can carry 8-10 bvr missiles as well.

This aircraft gives you more control of the ocean beneath you---the capability to carry between 2--4 CM400AKG AShM is a massive punch---just look at tis map---this aircraft is as suitable for the Pakistan navy and protecting the sea lanes as it is for china

View attachment 266439

AoA

Besides all you have said the following points also apply:-

1. It carries more than twice the payload of the JF-17. This means more bombs on targets or more targets per mission.

2. Strike package would be smaller by 1/4. One bomber + One escort

3. Being dual seater can be used for guided stand off weapons.

4. Compatible with our re-fueler

5. Tactical Data Link with ZDK AWACS can be easily developed.

6. Would keep Indian surface ships including the aircraft carrier out of the battle.

7. Could escort our LRMPAs

8. Would be safer for our pilots who bravely fly single engine aircrafts into the sea.

So how many squadrons do you propose?

Regards

 

[Nabeel Liaqat]

So much qualities of JH-7B aircraft but what will be the current price of this for PAF? JF-17 block 2 cost PAF around 25 mil $ per aircraft.

 

[MastanKhan]

AoA

Besides all you have said the following points also apply:-

1. It carries more than twice the payload of the JF-17. This means more bombs on targets or more targets per mission.

2. Strike package would be smaller by 1/4. One bomber + One escort

3. Being dual seater can be used for guided stand off weapons.

4. Compatible with our re-fueler

5. Tactical Data Link with ZDK AWACS can be easily developed.

6. Would keep Indian surface ships including the aircraft carrier out of the battle.

7. Could escort our LRMPAs

8. Would be safer for our pilots who bravely fly single engine aircrafts into the sea.

So how many squadrons do you propose?

Regards

Hi,

# 6 is an extremely crucial element

To start---I would say a squadron of 18 for beginers---and then increase the numbers as the utility grows by another 18.

 

[silent hawk]

AoA

So much qualities of JH-7B aircraft but what will be the current price of this for PAF? JF-17 block 2 cost PAF around 25 mil $ per aircraft.

Close to 50 mil.

Hi,

# 6 is an extremely crucial element

To start---I would say a squadron of 18 for beginers---and then increase the numbers as the utility grows by another 18.

I would go for two squadrons initially. One in the south for Maritime role and one in the center for strike and stand off weapons.

Opinion of others may be helpful.

Regards

 

[MastanKhan]

AoA



Close to 50 mil.



I would go for two squadrons initially. One in the south for Maritime role and one in the center for strike and stand off weapons.

Opinion of others may be helpful.

Regards

Hi,

My ideal number would be around 64 to 82---ie minimum 4 sqdrn's +++ -----1 1/2 sqdrn in the center and 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 sqdrn's for maritime role.

The Gwadar---Pasni---Jiwani and Karachi are extremely vulnerable if you use a reverse dog leg strike from india-----which means---that if indan strike aircraft go straight towards the coast of yemen and then go up half way---they are still far out to be detected----they can fly straight up turn right and hit our critical areas from the flank---thus delivering a deadly blow.

There is every chance in the book that the first, second, third strikes would be in large numbers to over power and over whelm any defenses at Gwadar, Pasni, Karachi---.

In order to face this charge---you need a force multiplier---heavy jamming capabilities and a large number of BVR launch abilities and top of that you also need to launch your strikes at enemy targets in reverse simultaneously---.

You also need to have the ability to meet the incoming force at least a 150-200 miles out into the ocean.


In order to stop that strike----you need some serious firepower---. The JF 17 does not provide that opportunity----.

 

[ssethii]

It's actually quite amazing to see these so called experts building the whole war scenario with their Wikipedia specs. Have you any experienced a real combat situation, If not kindly give us break from your fly straight and turn right scenarios.
Thank you.

 

[silent hawk]

AoA

It's actually quite amazing to see these so called experts building the whole war scenario with their Wikipedia specs. Have you any experienced a real combat situation, If not kindly give us break from your fly straight and turn right scenarios.
Thank you.

Yes

Hi,

My ideal number would be around 64 to 82---ie minimum 4 sqdrn's +++ -----1 1/2 sqdrn in the center and 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 sqdrn's for maritime role.

The Gwadar---Pasni---Jiwani and Karachi are extremely vulnerable if you use a reverse dog leg strike from india-----which means---that if indan strike aircraft go straight towards the coast of yemen and then go up half way---they are still far out to be detected----they can fly straight up turn right and hit our critical areas from the flank---thus delivering a deadly blow.

There is every chance in the book that the first, second, third strikes would be in large numbers to over power and over whelm any defenses at Gwadar, Pasni, Karachi---.

In order to face this charge---you need a force multiplier---heavy jamming capabilities and a large number of BVR launch abilities and top of that you also need to launch your strikes at enemy targets in reverse simultaneously---.

You also need to have the ability to meet the incoming force at least a 150-200 miles out into the ocean.


In order to stop that strike----you need some serious firepower---. The JF 17 does not provide that opportunity----.

PAF is aware of IAFs reverse leg capability and has counter measures in place.

AWACS and TPS-77 remove the element of surprise. Engagement would be handled through tactics and training which cannot be discussed here. But let me tell you that PAF is not too worried about BVRs. We are dog fight specialists trained to engage BVR aircrafts with IR missiles and guns.

I would like to employ the JH7B in an offensive role.

Asking the JF-17 to replace all our aging aircraft is a bit too much.

I would like to see the JH7B replace the ROSE III Mirages and the Maritime Mirages and an additional squadron in the south west to exploit our advantage of strategic orientation in the Arabian Sea. More than three squadrons would be asking too much from a poor nation.

 

[MastanKhan]

AoA



Yes



PAF is aware of IAFs reverse leg capability and has counter measures in place.

AWACS and TPS-77 remove the element of surprise. Engagement would be handled through tactics and training which cannot be discussed here. But let me tell you that PAF is not too worried about BVRs. We are dog fight specialists trained to engage BVR aircrafts with IR missiles and guns.

I would like to employ the JH7B in an offensive role.

Asking the JF-17 to replace all our aging aircraft is a bit too much.

I would like to see the JH7B replace the ROSE III Mirages and the Maritime Mirages and an additional squadron in the south west to exploit our advantage of strategic orientation in the Arabian Sea. More than three squadrons would be asking too much from a poor nation.

Hi,

Thank you for the reply---indeed 3 sqdrn's would be a massive help in strengthening the naval strike arm and giving support to the center----.

Here is the whole purpose of my discussion for the heavies------why it is a must---.

Pakistan is not a poor and weak nation of the 90's---the nation is well off----people see the opportunity and hope and there is progress---. Yet----when it comes to issues against the integrity of the state---the Pakistanis----still make threats of using the nucs at the first opportunity.

Why----it is out of habit now---because we have been saying it for too long---we failed to procure the right aircraft in the given time after 2002---what was needed foremost was put on the backburner----instead of starting TOP down---they started from BOTTOM up.

The support that the pak military received after 9/11 had the indian military in a panic. And their big concern was the upgradation of the pak air force. When the procurement fizzled up and the air force acted wishy washy taking their sweet time in deciding what to do----2005 earthquake hit.

Supposedly the funds went that way---but before that---the Pak air force had deduced that there would be in war with india and peace was around the corner---so the urgency in procuring an aircraft was put on a back burner.

So--at this stage---Pakistanis need to make a decision----can they live under the umbrella of a nuclear threat all the time--or should they have conventional means to fight the battle.

Go back to Kargil---it was the weakest time in Pakistan's military---yet the target was achieved----. If other conventional means were stronger----Kargil would have had a different outcome.

So---why can't we gain conventional strength at this time so that our children don't have to be incinerated---our brothers and sisters don't have to charred---our mothers fathers uncles aunts grandfather grandmothers uncles friends and families are not vaporized in a lesser time that it takes to blink an eye.

That is what the PAF's hierarchy need to think about----. It is not about the low cost per flight----it is not abut the turn arund time---it is not about made in Pakistan----it is not about made by the air force----.

It is about changing the nuclear threshold----it is about raising the nuclear threshold---it is about increasing the conventional strength so that we don't even think of going for first nuclear strike----.

My calculation is that for an investment of around 5 Billion dollars----give or take a few---Pakistan air force can be strengthened to where the conventional war would be rather welcome than the nuclear war.

Going for a 5 billion dollars for the 8 submarines at one time is a TACTICAL BLUNDER---they should have gone for 4 subs at this time----4 upgraded F22 frigate 2 type 054 upgraded frigates----3 sqdrn's of JH&B's and another 4 sqdrn's of J11D's.

That would have given them a strategic strength in parallel at the same type-----ie---all these 3 weapons of war---would be coming enforce at the same type---.

 

[Eagle Claw]

>> The Xian JH-7 NATO reporting name Flounder, also known as the FBC-1 (Fighter/Bomber China-1) Flying Leopard, is a tandem two-seat, twin-engine fighter-bomber in service with the People's Liberation Army Naval Air Force (PLANAF), and the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF). The main contractors are Xian Aircraft Industrial Corporation (XAC) and the 603rd Aircraft Design Institute (later named the First Aircraft Institute of AVIC-I).

VARIANTS:
> JH-7 -- Base Series Designation; Original Production from as Anti-ship Fighter Bomber.
> JH-7A -- Improved JH-7 for Ground Strike role; lighter and more robust Airframe; increased ordnance-caring capability.
> JH-7B -- Improved JH-7; new Avionics Suite; reduced radar signature(increased stealthiness); upgraded Engines; improved Weapons Support; Arial Refueling Capable.

GENERAL CHARACTERISTICS:
> Payload: 9,000 kg(19,842 lb) of weapons
> Empty weight: 14,500 kg(31,900 lb)
> Max. takeoff weight: 28,475 kg (62,720 lb)
> Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 (1,808 km/h, 1,122 mph)
> Combat radius: 1,759 km (890 nm, 1,093 mi)
> Ferry range: 3,700 km (1,970 nm, 2,299 mi)

ARMAMENT:
> 9 in total (6× under-wing, 2× wing-tip, 1× under-fuselage) with a capacity of 9,000 kg (20,000 lb) external fuel and ordnance.

ROLES:
> Normal bombing
> Anti ship back up
> Anti ship vanguard
> Deep strike
> Ground access denial
> Precision strike

UPGRADE POTENTIAL:
Can be Upgraded with Sukhois Radar and Avionics.

2 Squadrons for both PAF and PN each will add some considerable punch in Airforce. I don't know why PAF is not considering it. It is the Taylor made Choice for us.

 

[silent hawk]

Hi,

Thank you for the reply---indeed 3 sqdrn's would be a massive help in strengthening the naval strike arm and giving support to the center----.

Here is the whole purpose of my discussion for the heavies------why it is a must---.

Pakistan is not a poor and weak nation of the 90's---the nation is well off----people see the opportunity and hope and there is progress---. Yet----when it comes to issues against the integrity of the state---the Pakistanis----still make threats of using the nucs at the first opportunity.

Why----it is out of habit now---because we have been saying it for too long---we failed to procure the right aircraft in the given time after 2002---what was needed foremost was put on the backburner----instead of starting TOP down---they started from BOTTOM up.

The support that the pak military received after 9/11 had the indian military in a panic. And their big concern was the upgradation of the pak air force. When the procurement fizzled up and the air force acted wishy washy taking their sweet time in deciding what to do----2005 earthquake hit.

Supposedly the funds went that way---but before that---the Pak air force had deduced that there would be in war with india and peace was around the corner---so the urgency in procuring an aircraft was put on a back burner.

So--at this stage---Pakistanis need to make a decision----can they live under the umbrella of a nuclear threat all the time--or should they have conventional means to fight the battle.

Go back to Kargil---it was the weakest time in Pakistan's military---yet the target was achieved----. If other conventional means were stronger----Kargil would have had a different outcome.

So---why can't we gain conventional strength at this time so that our children don't have to be incinerated---our brothers and sisters don't have to charred---our mothers fathers uncles aunts grandfather grandmothers uncles friends and families are not vaporized in a lesser time that it takes to blink an eye.

That is what the PAF's hierarchy need to think about----. It is not about the low cost per flight----it is not abut the turn arund time---it is not about made in Pakistan----it is not about made by the air force----.

It is about changing the nuclear threshold----it is about raising the nuclear threshold---it is about increasing the conventional strength so that we don't even think of going for first nuclear strike----.

My calculation is that for an investment of around 5 Billion dollars----give or take a few---Pakistan air force can be strengthened to where the conventional war would be rather welcome than the nuclear war.

Going for a 5 billion dollars for the 8 submarines at one time is a TACTICAL BLUNDER---they should have gone for 4 subs at this time----4 upgraded F22 frigate 2 type 054 upgraded frigates----3 sqdrn's of JH&B's and another 4 sqdrn's of J11D's.

That would have given them a strategic strength in parallel at the same type-----ie---all these 3 weapons of war---would be coming enforce at the same type---.

AoA

Thanks for a lovely post.

Raising the Nuclear Threshold. Beautiful concept. Something the armed forces need to work on.

You have convinced me on the JH-7B. Let us see if we can convince others.

Regards

 

[RAMPAGE]

Let us see if we can convince others.

To what end?