JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 6]

[SQ8]

That is more like it. You know i just quoted you and added a sad simile at the end knowing you will share some good stuff.

But seriously, apart from this image and a few others as well, don't you also feel that the images coming out of unarmed JF-17 heavily out number the ones in which it is carrying weapons. Also i do feel that JF-17 have not been assigned that important role in operation zarb-e-azb that it should have been being a new system and an open structure design with room for improvements. May be battle time testing (although there was no A2A scenario but at least in A2G) would have been the best evaluation!!
The image you posted, though really impressive is also not from an operation flight but is more of a marketing image.

There are very pertinent and valid reasons for that. While it is being touted as a multirole aircraft (and it is a multirole aircraft) the primary focus of the JF 17 is air defence. Therefore all focus in developing tactics, weapons and even the logistics has been focused on air defence employment. That does not mean that the aircraft is/has not been cleared for accused in air to ground scenarios; rather that the focus of the aircraft is 70% in air defence for the time being. This is also evident in the the commonplace sight of the aircraft practising Air combat scenario's much more frequently as compared to air to ground. At this time(barring the F-16) the JF-17 is the only platform the PAF has which provides complete air combat capability in both the BVR(publicly known that is) and WVR arena and was built for that purpose. Hence, with the F-16 fleet working up it is also imperative that the Air Defence capability of the PAF is kept sharp throughout the timeline the aircraft is coming.

At this point, the rather lacklustre marketing effort is the fault of the PAF and the Chinese as well. The PAF wants to ensure that its JF-17 orders are met before anyone else gets them and the Chinese are trying to sell it like their next F-7. The PAF has firm orders for 150 and is now debating in light of the IAF's purchases whether to push it all the way to 300. Within that, there is pressure to fit in foreign orders but the PAF is adamant that it wants its orders and before anybody else. Let's be clear, that the only assembly-line (able to manufacture JF 17s on a large-scale) is in Kamra, Pakistan. The Chinese or rather CATIC has no room for a JF-17 line as they are currently absorbed with other projects. The slow rate initial production was due to this specific reason that the complex in Kamra was working up and till then JF-17s were built on a single jig in China.

 

[Bilal.]

The slow rate initial production was due to this specific reason that the complex in Kamra was working up and till then JF-17s were built on a single jig in China

But @Oscar the production rate was quite good in the initial couple of years and took a dip just as the economy sagged... The first two squadrons were competed in quite a good time.

 

[SQ8]

But @Oscar the production rate was quite good in the initial couple of years and took a dip just as the economy sagged... The first two squadrons were competed in quite a good time.

Not entirely. The production for the initial types was low.. then it took off in the middle.. slowed down again.

 

[Bilal.]

Not entirely. The production for the initial types was low.. then it took off in the middle.. slowed down again.

I did not mean SBP which was understandably slow by it's very definition. My question was if the slow production is due to lack of facilities then how was it good for the first 2 squadrons?

Anyways, the current rate is just atrocious. It's been almost a year and not a single block 2 has rolled out. At this rate even the initial 150 will not be competed in a decade.

 

[Ra'ad]

I did not mean SBP which was understandably slow by it's very definition. My question was if the slow production is due to lack of facilities then how was it good for the first 2 squadrons?

Anyways, the current rate is just atrocious. It's been almost a year and not a single block 2 has rolled out. At this rate even the initial 150 will not be competed in a decade.

Oscar mentioned that the economy sagged.
So as i understand it....the rate was low during SBP; The reason obvious...it was sbp.
Then the rate shot up coz kamra facility went online.
Then it dropped coz the bottleneck was not lack of production capacity (facilities) but funds.

 

[SQ8]

I did not mean SBP which was understandably slow by it's very definition. My question was if the slow production is due to lack of facilities then how was it good for the first 2 squadrons?

Anyways, the current rate is just atrocious. It's been almost a year and not a single block 2 has rolled out. At this rate even the initial 150 will not be competed in a decade.

The apparent shoot up of production was due to the line at Kamra building aircraft and some coming in from the Jig at China.

 

[nangyale]

or because in addition to the money problem, PAF wanted to upgrade the initial jets to block 2 standard.
This could explain the delay in new-built block 2s.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Sexy beast #12
Looking all revved up as if its just came back from Taking out few enemy jets

 

[nomi007]

Dual rack hardpoint for JF 17 Thunder:

Currently PAC (Pakistan Aeronautical Complex) is working on dual rack hardpoint for air to air missiles.dual rack is specially designed to carry 2× AAM (Air to air missiles) on 1 hardpoint.when thunder will get dual rack hardpoint so it can carry 6× AAMss (Air to air missiles).

 

[nomi007]

China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation

shows in eygpt

 

[Kompromat]

China National Aero-Technology Import & Export CorporationView attachment 94324
shows in eygpt

This is not Thunder. You posted it earlier as well, i deleted it.

 

[Donatello]

There are very pertinent and valid reasons for that. While it is being touted as a multirole aircraft (and it is a multirole aircraft) the primary focus of the JF 17 is air defence. Therefore all focus in developing tactics, weapons and even the logistics has been focused on air defence employment. That does not mean that the aircraft is/has not been cleared for accused in air to ground scenarios; rather that the focus of the aircraft is 70% in air defence for the time being. This is also evident in the the commonplace sight of the aircraft practising Air combat scenario's much more frequently as compared to air to ground. At this time(barring the F-16) the JF-17 is the only platform the PAF has which provides complete air combat capability in both the BVR(publicly known that is) and WVR arena and was built for that purpose. Hence, with the F-16 fleet working up it is also imperative that the Air Defence capability of the PAF is kept sharp throughout the timeline the aircraft is coming.

At this point, the rather lacklustre marketing effort is the fault of the PAF and the Chinese as well. The PAF wants to ensure that its JF-17 orders are met before anyone else gets them and the Chinese are trying to sell it like their next F-7. The PAF has firm orders for 150 and is now debating in light of the IAF's purchases whether to push it all the way to 300. Within that, there is pressure to fit in foreign orders but the PAF is adamant that it wants its orders and before anybody else. Let's be clear, that the only assembly-line (able to manufacture JF 17s on a large-scale) is in Kamra, Pakistan. The Chinese or rather CATIC has no room for a JF-17 line as they are currently absorbed with other projects. The slow rate initial production was due to this specific reason that the complex in Kamra was working up and till then JF-17s were built on a single jig in China.

300 JF-17s? Wouldn't it be prudent to take 100 off that number and purchase surplus two sqs of F-16s, for total 6 squadrons. And if any cash left, spend on a medium/heavy fighter like the J-10 or Chinese Flankers for Maritime/deep strike?

 

[The SC]

Are low cost fighters a solution for future battles?

With a price tag of $20 million, the Textron AirLand Scorpion is an inexpensive option in tactical aircraft.

While $20 million is no paltry sum – it’s still approximately 80 percent less than the pricetag for current fighter aircraft like the F-35.

As fighter jets become more and more expensive, the Scorpion is providing fighter capabilities at a lower price tag, something which could be key in an era of fiscal austerity and military funding cutbacks.

The fighter jet made an appearance at the nation’s capital last week at the Air Force Association Air & Space Conference. Textron used Washington D.C.’s National Airport to showcase the Scorpion, featuring a range of intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance sensors, known as ISR.

The jet made its international debut in July at the Farnborough International Airshow in the U.K. where Textron focused on the sort of weaponry it could carry. In August, Scorpion also took part in Vigilant Guard 2014, a large-scale disaster exercise conducted by the U.S. military’s Northern Command and Kansas National Guard. Scenarios included a simulated train derailment, medical evacuations, chemical spill and infrastructure damage.

Over the four days, Scorpion provided color high definition multi-spectral aerial reconnaissance full motion video and communications with other aircraft and ground stations.

Scorpion

Built in secret at a Cessna facility in Kansas, Scorpion was designed as a tactical plane that could handle a range of missions.

The aircraft length is about 44 feet and its wingspan is nearly 48 feet. Scorpion has a standard weight of 11,800 pounds and a max takeoff weight of 21,250 pounds. It has a top speed of around 520mph and can fly at a ceiling of 45,000 feet.

Scorpion can be weaponized using a number of different armaments, including precision-guided munitions for precision strikes. It can also be amped up with the air-to-surface and air-to-air weapons popular with the U.S. and its allies.

In addition to a combat role, Scorpion’s intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance capabilities can be enhanced. The aircraft can also be used in roles such as maritime and border patrol, irregular warfare, surveillance and humanitarian assistance.

Scorpion can take on a range of tasks - from detecting hidden ground explosives and capturing ground images through dense jungle through to distinguishing between illegal narcotic crops and legal ones.

How is it cheaper?

The Joint Strike Fighter, also known as the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II, is set to join many leading air forces – the price tag will reportedly end up around $100 million per jet.

Some argue that jets like the F-35 and the Eurofighter Typhoon reveal a focus on advanced performance over cost.

The Scorpion took only two years to go from concept to its first flight.

To accelerate the development process and lower costs, Textron leveraged relationships with suppliers and integrated already-created components, rather than designing everything especially for their aircraft.

The company, for example, designed the aircraft to accommodate its preferred engine and ejection seats.

The low cost may appeal to air forces looking to replace older aircraft or who want to maximize their budget and acquire a larger fleet of less expensive aircraft.

However, Scorpion faces competition from countries like Russia and China. The Russian light strike fighter Yak-130 and the Chinese supersonic fighter JF-17 are both on the market and attracting buyers.

The U.S. Air Force is holding a competition next year as it looks to acquire 350 jet trainers to replace its T-38 fleet. The T-38s have been in service since the 1960s. Scorpion will join the fray for selection.

Scorpion production is set to kick off next year.
Scorpion: Low cost fighter jet for future battles? | Fox News

Textron scorpion

JF-17 Thunder

 

[The SC]

Program J-17 On The Track
22/06/2014

Contrary to speculation, development of the JF-17 aircraft continues apace with avionics and weapons carriage capability improvements, work ongoing on future variants, and impending establishment of the third squadron. Chief Project Director of the JF-17 program, Air Vice Marshal Javed Ahmed, told Defense News the program was “as per schedule and there are no delays,” saying the current fleet had logged 10,000 hours and flown over 13,500 sorties. He also revealed the third squadron would be raised after Exercise High Mark 2014 toward the end of the year.
Chief among these improvements are avionics, with Ahmed highlighting they are aimed at improving “situational awareness” and the “performance and lethality of the aircraft,” but still centered on the NRIET KLJ-7 radar which supports the SD-10 beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile. However, building on local capability.

“integrating some additional smart and indigenously developed weapons” is underway, though Ahmed did not specify. Short-range air-to-air armament, however, still consists of the PL-5E II, a recent variant of an aged weapon. Nevertheless, analyst and former Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail says the Air Force is happy with Chinese missiles. “Price per unit seems to be a likely factor, besides hooking them to the fire control computer for firing zone solutions, which would also cost a fortune,” he said. Potential payload shortcomings have also been highlighted by analysts. The JF-17 is often seen with three large drop-tanks indicating low internal fuel capacity and/or high consumption by the Klimov RD-93 engine. However, Ahmed says the three-tank configuration is for ferry flights or “extended operational training exercises/missions” with routine flights made “in clean or single-tank configuration.”

Therefore, for smaller nations and those conducting tactical missions, “it has the requisite reach to engage targets and can also provide required on-station time in an air defense role,” and aerial refueling “further augmented reach and endurance.” Tufail is unconvinced, though, and highlights that 10,000 hours/13,500 sorties, equates to 45 minutes per sortie. “Notwithstanding the aerial refueling capability [which has many operational and logistics limitations], the short sortie time may be a no-no for prospective buyers,” he said. His most likely solution is not so straightforward, however. “[Conformal fuel tanks] are absolutely essential to a multi-role JF-17, but these are not easy to install, since the aerodynamics of the aircraft is greatly altered and it would call for flight testing in all regimes, including certification of all stores anew.” Ahmed says other solutions are being considered “based on customer requirements.”

“The dual rack ejector for bombs has already been integrated, flight tested and being flown in PAF. A similar concept of multimissile launcher is under evaluation for missiles,” he said. Though largely operated by state-owned and Air Force-run Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Ahmed also highlighted progress on increasing private sector involvement. “Several Pakistani vendors have been cultivated and brought up to the proficiency levels mandated by aviation programs. The nascent aviation industry in the private sector is taking root and is gradually enhancing its share in this program of national importance,” he said.

Though numerous analysts have commented on the lack of export sales despite well-publicized promotion and apparent interest from potential customers, Ahmed defends this apparent lack of success. “Defense purchases, especially those of combat aircraft, are expensive undertakings and are therefore preceded by lengthy evaluations and detailed deliberations by the professional decision makers. The response that the aircraft is receiving is highly encouraging and the export orders may not be far off,” he said. He also stressed that the JF-17 was still a highly attractive option in an age of austerity as it “offers a highly cost effective solution with cutting edge capabilities,” and that “no other contemporary combat aircraft offers the same capabilities in comparable price range.” Ahmed also highlighted customized “avionics and weapon packages according to the specific requirements of each customer” as well as training, maintenance and logistics packages, which includes “indigenously developed customized solutions, testers and simulators.” Ahmed did not, however, shed any light on reports the JF-17 could be offered in a wider package including the Chinese ZDK-03 AEW&C aircraft. Looking forward, Ahmed confirmed aspects of the Block III avionics package, which would include the evaluation of an active electronically scanned array radar option along with other upgrades, and this process was also mindful of potential export customer requirements.

“At present, the Chinese and indigenous systems are performing well in JF-17 aircraft. However, there are different Western proposals and considerations for avionics systems of Block-III JF-17 aircraft which could also be an option for our customer countries,” he said. Analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank is unsure this will occur, but believes a “domestically produced engine may in the end tilt the balance towards a Chinese purchase.” “They certainly have lots of units to replace,” he says. Nevertheless, Shabbir said everything laid out by Ahmed “shows a well thought out road map for future variants and the capability they would provide.

Program J-17 On The Track | JejakTapak

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Scorpio just looks like a trainer
USA should bring back this baby