JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 5]

[muse]

i see what I would like JFT to be more like

 

[Kompromat]

i see what I would like JFT to be more like

Sirji this is Korean KFX and i hope you know how much the program like this would cost.

JF-17 indeed is very versatile, should we have the funds needed to carry out the necessary upgrades.

* Reduction in RCS [Front-Diamond shaped radome]
* AESA Radar
* Retractable IFR
* Weight reduction,using composite materials.
* Fly by light control systems.
* ECM, Electronic jamming capabilities embedded in the air craft.
* IRST
* A 95KN-100KN Engine.


JF-17 will become as lethal as our new F-16s.

 

[ziaulislam]

There is a 99.9% chance its just smoke.
Even if gets annunced officialy, it will not happen, we are the country of the prototypes and smoke.
Also its gona need a new seat too, because Fadea has been ordered to no use MB seats anymore.

FADEA is doing a new version of the Pampa trainer, called "Pampa III/GT", it will be something like a mono engined L-15 based on the older model, also a primary trainer called "Unasur 1" and they are doing upgrades on other planes, like the Pucara, changing engines on older Pampas, etc all of this very slowly because FADEA spend more time on strike than working, they dont have the capacity to do something like the JF-17, and even if they do, they gona do 1 every 2 years.

chinese already have their on ejection seats MB seats are only used in JF-17 not the export version of FC-1
Assembly isnt a difficult job, this can be done with help of pakistani/chinese experts help and training

anyway its just an interst, argentina spends very little on defence, so may not happen.

 

[muse]

Sirji this is Korean KFX and i hope you know how much the program like this would cost.

JF-17 indeed is very versatile, should we have the funds needed to carry out the necessary upgrades.

* Reduction in RCS [Front-Diamond shaped radome]
* AESA Radar
* Retractable IFR
* Weight reduction,using composite materials.
* Fly by light control systems.
* ECM, Electronic jamming capabilities embedded in the air craft.
* IRST
* A 95KN-100KN Engine.


JF-17 will become as lethal as our new F-16s.

The world is changing fast, the JFT PROGRAM (not just the ship) was meant to keep the PAF meaningful - please move away from this idiot fascination with cost - after all, is there a Dollar value to your freedom as a Pakistani?? If there is please do tell the Indian and they will afford you.

Lets always aim for better and not allow ourselves to become slaves to those whose interests are served by telling us that we are undeserving and must therefore settle for less.

 

[That Guy]

The world is changing fast, the JFT PROGRAM (not just the ship) was meant to keep the PAF meaningful - please move away from this idiot fascination with cost - after all, is there a Dollar value to your freedom as a Pakistani?? If there is please do tell the Indian and they will afford you.

Lets always aim for better and not allow ourselves to become slaves to those whose interests are served by telling us that we are undeserving and must therefore settle for less.

I agree with rest of the statement, but I'd just like to go off topic for one second and address the bolded part.

Unfortunately, there is a dollar value to everyone's freedom. You think you're free? Try doing something or going somewhere without money. You'll quickly realize that freedom in today's world is for the rich and the well off.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

Sirji this is Korean KFX and i hope you know how much the program like this would cost.

JF-17 indeed is very versatile, should we have the funds needed to carry out the necessary upgrades.

* Reduction in RCS [Front-Diamond shaped radome]
* AESA Radar
* Retractable IFR
* Weight reduction,using composite materials.
* Fly by light control systems.
* ECM, Electronic jamming capabilities embedded in the air craft.
* IRST
* A 95KN-100KN Engine.


JF-17 will become as lethal as our new F-16s.

Let's start with the upgraded engine first as a matter of priority for allocation of whatever funds are made available.

 

[Jungibaaz]

With the current economic climate future plans and prospects, I don't expect JF-17 to surpass our F16 Block 52+ anytime soon.
Dream and wish all you want, 6 wasted years is no joke, what we had planned in the mid-2000's was all based on the expectation that we'd continue to grow like we did back then.

A few feasible upgrades will go a mile in improving JF-17's capability, reducing radar cross section is far too costly and becomes meaningless once you put fuel tanks and weapons on the aircraft. So IFR probe, Chinese engine with more thrust preferably (we need this and for exports too), steady improvements to the ESM suite and integration of weapons and pods such as KG-300G and a capable IRST pod. If it was feasible I'd love to see an advanced IRST system with QWIP tech on the JF-17.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

With the current economic climate future plans and prospects, I don't expect JF-17 to surpass our F16 Block 52+ anytime soon.
Dream and wish all you want, 6 wasted years is no joke, what we had planned in the mid-2000's was all based on the expectation that we'd continue to grow like we did back then.

A few feasible upgrades will go a mile in improving JF-17's capability, reducing radar cross section is far too costly and becomes meaningless once you put fuel tanks and weapons on the aircraft. So IFR probe, Chinese engine with more thrust preferably (we need this and for exports too), steady improvements to the ESM suite and integration of weapons and pods such as KG-300G and a capable IRST pod. If it was feasible I'd love to see an advanced IRST system with QWIP tech on the JF-17.

The JF-17 is the modern day F-20 Tigershark. Please compare the specifications of the aircraft and their problems, and the resemblance is uncanny. It will never be an F-16.

 

[araz]

With the current economic climate future plans and prospects, I don't expect JF-17 to surpass our F16 Block 52+ anytime soon.
Dream and wish all you want, 6 wasted years is no joke, what we had planned in the mid-2000's was all based on the expectation that we'd continue to grow like we did back then.

A few feasible upgrades will go a mile in improving JF-17's capability, reducing radar cross section is far too costly and becomes meaningless once you put fuel tanks and weapons on the aircraft. So IFR probe, Chinese engine with more thrust preferably (we need this and for exports too), steady improvements to the ESM suite and integration of weapons and pods such as KG-300G and a capable IRST pod. If it was feasible I'd love to see an advanced IRST system with QWIP tech on the JF-17.

First sensible post I have seen on the subjects of upgrades. Please stop thinking of JFT as you new Model Corolla or Civic. There is much more to aircrafts than visual appeal.
Araz

 

[Kompromat]

@Argus Panoptes

Its alot better than the tiger shark,however it surely is an underpowered version of JAS-39 Gripen and the Mirage-2000.

Well,for the upgrades, i'd rather have an AESA radar to go along BVRAAMs first. We ain't getting our hands on a new engine anytime soon. Radars are available though.

 

[araz]

The JF-17 is the modern day F-20 Tigershark. Please compare the specifications of the aircraft and their problems, and the resemblance is uncanny. It will never be an F-16.

Do we need it to be an F16? Explain why we need 2 planes with similar function and performance. What about your induction plans when the cost overruns make it as expensive to run as the 16s. You have 250 planes to replace . Even if you need 150 more and the cost triples how are you going to pay and maintain it? Pragmatism has left the building as far as this thread is concerned .
The other issue that has come up repeatedly is engine upgrades. Has anyone thought of where this mighty engine going to come from? Russian engines have issues with reliability similar to the US and whereas the Red Bear is seeing eye to eye with you when India flashes the dollars what do you think will happen to this engine. Where are the Chinese engines that you want to put in the JFTs. We have looked to Ukraine but where is the money and the developement costs going to come from? It amazes me to think you guys dont have any sense of how the world runs. Most of you have been on the forum long enough to have learnt a few things. Please stop having these wet dreams and look at things realistically. We would love to have a higher thrust engine and a few more hard points but jerking off on a forum is not going to achieve it. I am sorry for useing this language but people need to realize what the options are and look at it in a feasable way to have realistic expectations of a favourable outcome. PAF will switch over to the hinese option as soon as one becomes available. the Russkies will probably offer a higher thrust engine at that juncture but dont want to make that effort now. Even if the options were there we dfont have the extra cash as incorporating a nnew engine will mean more testing and further delays which with an archaic fleet we can not afford.
Araz

 

[SQ8]

The JF-17 is the modern day F-20 Tigershark. Please compare the specifications of the aircraft and their problems, and the resemblance is uncanny. It will never be an F-16.

If not for the PAF, the JF-17 might have suffered the same fate.. Both aircraft are excellent in A2A combat, decent avionics.. perhaps there should be some videos made like that. There are some urban legends on the PAF evaluation of the Tigershark.. probably fiction.. but interesting to hear from some old hands that during the flight test by the PAF of the F-20 they pushed the aircraft a little beyond its limits which had Northdrop cringing.

I wonder why they cant take older mirages and configure them into a buddy refueling craft for others.. It will definitely be a cheap solution for extending range.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

@Argus Panoptes

Its alot better than the tiger shark,however it surely is an underpowered version of JAS-39 Gripen and the Mirage-2000.

Well,for the upgrades, i'd rather have an AESA radar to go along BVRAAMs first. We ain't getting our hands on a new engine anytime soon. Radars are available though.

Whatever advantages the JF-17 has over the Tigershark are mainly related to better avionics and weaponry, not the airframe or powerplant. To be underpowered these days is an insurmountable deficit, curable only by a new, more powerful engine.

I do agree with you that if a new engine is not available, then upgrading the radar and missiles would be a good step.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

Do we need it to be an F16? Explain why we need 2 planes with similar function and performance. What about your induction plans when the cost overruns make it as expensive to run as the 16s. You have 250 planes to replace . Even if you need 150 more and the cost triples how are you going to pay and maintain it? Pragmatism has left the building as far as this thread is concerned .
The other issue that has come up repeatedly is engine upgrades. Has anyone thought of where this mighty engine going to come from? Russian engines have issues with reliability similar to the US and whereas the Red Bear is seeing eye to eye with you when India flashes the dollars what do you think will happen to this engine. Where are the Chinese engines that you want to put in the JFTs. We have looked to Ukraine but where is the money and the developement costs going to come from? It amazes me to think you guys dont have any sense of how the world runs. Most of you have been on the forum long enough to have learnt a few things. Please stop having these wet dreams and look at things realistically. We would love to have a higher thrust engine and a few more hard points but jerking off on a forum is not going to achieve it. I am sorry for useing this language but people need to realize what the options are and look at it in a feasable way to have realistic expectations of a favourable outcome. PAF will switch over to the hinese option as soon as one becomes available. the Russkies will probably offer a higher thrust engine at that juncture but dont want to make that effort now. Even if the options were there we dfont have the extra cash as incorporating a nnew engine will mean more testing and further delays which with an archaic fleet we can not afford.
Araz

I agree that the JF-17 will not be an F-16, and that PAF does not need it to be. That is why I made my comment that you have quoted Sir. And the rest of your post is along the line of what I continue to explain to the fanboys here that pragmatism means that the JF-17 as we have it now is probably as far as it will go, save for a few more improvements, and even those will not be all that easy. I do agree that pragmatism has indeed left this thread, and add that it is in mighty short supply elsewhere on this forum generally.

If not for the PAF, the JF-17 might have suffered the same fate.. Both aircraft are excellent in A2A combat, decent avionics.. perhaps there should be some videos made like that. There are some urban legends on the PAF evaluation of the Tigershark.. probably fiction.. but interesting to hear from some old hands that during the flight test by the PAF of the F-20 they pushed the aircraft a little beyond its limits which had Northdrop cringing.

I wonder why they cant take older mirages and configure them into a buddy refueling craft for others.. It will definitely be a cheap solution for extending range.

Buddy refueling is a good idea, but the fact we are not doing it speaks volumes about our real abilities and finances to do things on our own.

It is interesting to compare the F-20 and JF-17 line by line and realize that they are pretty comparable aircraft. We have arrived in the seventies finally, and left the fifties behind, as the world enters a new century.

 

[ziaulislam]

@Argus Panoptes

Its alot better than the tiger shark,however it surely is an underpowered version of JAS-39 Gripen and the Mirage-2000.

Well,for the upgrades, i'd rather have an AESA radar to go along BVRAAMs first. We ain't getting our hands on a new engine anytime soon. Radars are available though.

why is jf-17 considered under powered when its engine thrust is exactly similar to gripen C and earliest version of mirage2000.? while its T/W better than both..i mean under in avionics may be but why raw engine thrust?


MIRAGE2000
M53-5 - powered initial Mirage 2000C models [1]
Dry thrust: 54.0 kN (5,500 kgp / 12,230 lbf)
Afterburning thrust: 86.3 kN (8,800 kgp / 19,400 lbf)

M53-P2 - powered later Mirage 2000C models and used to upgrade earlier models [2]
Dry thrust: 64.7 kN (6,600 kgp / 14,500 lbf)
Afterburning thrust: 95.1 kN (9,700 kgp / 21,400 lbf)

gripen C
Powerplant: 1 × Volvo Aero RM12 afterburning turbofan/ General Electric F404
Dry thrust: 54 kN (12,100 lbf)
Thrust with afterburner: 80.5 kN (18,100 lbf)

JF-17
Powerplant: 1 × Klimov RD-93
Dry thrust: 49.4 kN[19] / 51.2 kN (11,106 lbf / 11,510 lbf)
Thrust with afterburner: 84.5 kN (19,000 lbf)
NOTE I HAVE USED THE LOWEST FIGURES FOR RD-93

T/W is higher simply because empty weight and loaded weight of JF-17 much lower..
every body keeps mentioning how under powered JF-17 is but never heard an answer to this argument..if JF-17 is under powered than why isnt the gripen C considered under powered?