JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[Tempest II]

I was thinking that $1.4m too low, but I found this from 2007. APG-68 (V)9 Radars for Pakistan’s F-16s (updated)

Northrop Grumman Electronic Systems in Linthicum Heights, MD received a $99.5 million firm-fixed-price contract for “government furnished property for the Government of Pakistan” under the F-16 Block 50/52 new aircraft and modernization program. “The procurement of 54 AN/APG-68 (V)9 Radar Systems will be accomplished under the firm-fixed-price portion of the contract.”

So the AN/APG-68 (V)9 was costing $1.842m in 2007.

Also: Northrop Grumman Logs $87.8M Foreign Military Sale Contract for APG-68(V)9 Radars - G3 Defence

08:29 GMT, June 21, 2012 BALTIMORE | Northrop Grumman Corporation has received an $87.8 million foreign military sales (FMS) contract to provide the APG-68(V)9 airborne fire control radar to Thailand, Iraq and Oman for use on F-16 fighter aircraft.
The company will deliver six radar systems to the Royal Thai Air Force, 22 radar systems to the Iraqi air force and 15 radar systems to the Royal Air Force of Oman, for a total of 43 systems. Deliveries are expected to be completed by March 2015. The FMS contract is managed by the Aeronautical Systems Center, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio.

That means at the moment the APG-68 costs $2.042m. I expected this to be much higher, to be around $4m.

The KLJ-7 will be about 70% the cost of the APG-68.

 

[Tempest II]

Posted by Hongjian on CDF.

 

[alimobin memon]

Posted by Hongjian on CDF.

Indeed a good picture KLJ7 has greatly improved

 

[Arsalan]

Posted by Hongjian on CDF.

Thanks Dear!
goes to show the detection range of JFT for:
F22 is around 30Km
F-16 is around 120 Km!

don't know if it is from KLJ7 or KLJ7 V2 for KLJ V2 is said to have been a further much improved variant!

 

[mylovepakistan]

Posted by Hongjian on CDF.

are these ranges for front aspect?

i mean i really doubt 30 km against raptor,of a radar that has 105 km for 5m2 or in the case if its v2 130 km for 5m2,

 

[Tempest II]

are these ranges for front aspect?

i mean i really doubt 30 km against raptor,of a radar that has 105 km for 5m2 or in the case if its v2 130 km for 5m2,

IF (???) the RCS of the F-22 is 0.004 sqm, using the 120km range for the F-16 and calculating backwards gives 1 sqm RCS for the F-16. ... ... for a 3 sqm target detection will be 157km and 178km for 5sqm.

 

[Donatello]

IF (???) the RCS of the F-22 is 0.004 sqm, using the 120km range for the F-16 and calculating backwards gives 1 sqm RCS for the F-16. ... ... for a 3 sqm target detection will be 157km and 178km for 5sqm.

But i am still surprised that it can detect F-22 at 30km.....

 

[Tempest II]

But i am still surprised that it can detect F-22 at 30km.....

I think what we have to be realistic about is that while the F-22 is impressive, it has a non-zero RCS, it is not invisible to radar and will be detected.

Air Combat: Russia?s PAK-FA versus the F-22 and F-35 assume 0.005 sqm for the F-22. That would give the F-16 1.3 sqm to be detectable at 120km.

 

[Bratva]

^ Dont get carried away with these figures. These are fan boy stuff and unproven facts and figures

 

[Viper0011.]

IF (???) the RCS of the F-22 is 0.004 sqm, using the 120km range for the F-16 and calculating backwards gives 1 sqm RCS for the F-16. ... ... for a 3 sqm target detection will be 157km and 178km for 5sqm.

This is inaccurate for the Raptor. Raptor not only has a minimal RS, it also has plenty of electronics to confuse the radar. In lay man's terms, Raptor's RCS is similar to the RCS of a dime from a distance. That's almost NO RCS.

BUT, Raptor isn't visible at the same time, no one knows exactly when it's visible. That's the point, it's a secret weapon and ahead of the curve by many years.
Recent exercise with Euro fighter proved that the Raptor is visible at short distances. Euro fighter's radar could see it and plus, its FLIR can increase that distance and helped in identification. HOWEVER, conventional Radar compared to Euro fighter's radar and FLIR.... are much different. It's visible slightly outside of the WVR for a conventional radar running in pulse dopler mode. Those radar's aren't that sophisticated like AESA or PESA to detect the smallest moving piece and create an image on the screen. That can be confused with many things, including ground clutter or other objects

 

[gambit]

But i am still surprised that it can detect F-22 at 30km.....

Not credible. On the other hand, 30 km is well within the WVR regime. Ground level visual horizon is in the low 20s.

Horizon calculator - radar and visual

If you want something a little bit more credible, try this anecdote...

Raptor debuts at Red Flag, dominates skies

"The thing denies your ability to put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it through the canopy," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, F-15 exchange pilot in the 65th AS. "It's the most frustrated I've ever been."

Detection and Tracking are different modes of radar operations. Detection is the trespass of a signal over an arbitrary threshold. Tracking involve persistence over time AFTER the target trespass of that threshold. So what this mean is that if the order of modes is: Detection-Tracking-Targeting, then even though the F-22 is 'detected' its signal may not stay above that threshold for long, making 'tracking' problematic and 'targeting' well nigh impossible.

Against 'stealth', the order must be: Tracking-Detection-Targeting.

Track-before-detect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In radar technology and similar fields, track-before-detect (TBD) is a concept according to which a signal is tracked before declaring it a target. In this approach, the sensor data about a tentative target are integrated over time and may yield detection in cases when signals from any particular time instance are too weak against clutter (low signal-to-noise ratio) to register a detected target.

TBD is difficult to implement on an aircraft, especially on a fighter class size aircraft. Basically, the threshold (clutter) is radically lowered to include just about everything. Then that 'everything' is recorded over time. Whatever that moves out of the ordinary is classified as a 'target'. The difficulty lies in data processing because so many things are being processed at anytime within the beamwidth. The solution is enlarge the data processing capability, which is not likely on a fighter, or narrow the beamwidth, which is still problematic because the beamwidth is already narrow at 3-5 deg for most and 2-3 for the more advanced AESA systems.

So even if we grant the Chinese speculation that the F-22 can be 'detected' at 30 km, it still does not make the F-22 a vulnerable target.

 

[alimobin memon]

This new chart of radar range for jf17 is for klj7v2 which has even greater range then improved klj7's 130km against 5m^2 . I heard the new radar provides jf17 edge over N011m radar of MKI in attack range

 

[Tempest II]

Credible source? … …. We cannot say, because we don’t know where it came from. So, we treat it with caution.

Is what is presented here possible? … … Yes. There are radars out there capable of 5sqm at 180km and unfortunately by laws of physics, it means 0.004 sqm is detected at 30km … … and controversially that includes the F-22! Impressive, but nothing unbelievable.

Yes, it is worth emphasising that we are being presented with detection range and not tracking. That this is likely under optimum conditions and should assume no jamming by the F-22 side. I would assume also that the angle/aspect of the F-22 presented here (if this is genuine) is to show the JF-17 in the best possible light likely for marketing purposes, therefore the calculations are for the most vulnerable side of the F-22.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

are these ranges for front aspect?

i mean i really doubt 30 km against raptor,of a radar that has 105 km for 5m2 or in the case if its v2 130 km for 5m2,

30 km is just for academic purposes. 30 km range means never. I mean by the time Raptor is within 30km it has eaten you as many times as its weapon load allows it.
quoting Raptor in these discussion is risky because it can cause people go go suicidal and wear the pink saari.. I would prefer comparisons from 4-4.5 gen planes

 

[Viper0011.]

Credible source? … …. We cannot say, because we don’t know where it came from. So, we treat it with caution.

Is what is presented here possible? … … Yes. There are radars out there capable of 5sqm at 180km and unfortunately by laws of physics, it means 0.004 sqm is detected at 30km … … and controversially that includes the F-22! Impressive, but nothing unbelievable.

First, I think the Raptor and the JFT are two VERY separate class planes. I don't think that's even a comparison to discuss here.

Next, I've explained before and then Gambit explained further, seeing the Raptor, especially with FLIR is possible as it bypasses the traditional radar and takes an IR image of the environment. But, to obtain a lock on to it, even if it's WVR, is different. Your radar simply can't lock onto it due to the ECM and decoy frequencies that Raptor will be sending to the inbound radar. Due to which, your lock will be a constantly moving object due to frequency hopping.
Scrambling incoming signals results in distortion and discontinuity of the wave length. Resulting in radar's locking system to constantly 'shake' when pointed to a target. If you fired a missile on it, the last target acquisition may be 40 yards away from the actual plane. Since the plane cools off the heat, your missile is obviously going to a waste. Guns may be a better option at this close of a proximity but will the other pilot ever be able to use the gun switch?? or even get to this range with a Raptor? The theme is when you can track a raptor, its too late. There's a reason why this beast costs $ 200 million