JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[SQ8]

This will suffice why IAF didnt go for Russian stuff for own fighters whereas Made in India engine was always desirable and was in mind, but.

But the Kaveri has not lived up to expectations either...even after working with the Russians and the French.
And eventually the GE-404 has come out as the choice. This also shows why the PAF does not yet trust the WS-13 engine as it too like the Kaveri is an advanced product from a beginner. refining both will take time.

Not just metallurgy, high temperature close tolerance metallurgical design and manufacturing is a different ballgame.

You have also mentioned one of the many reasons why I keep arguing pn PDF to form a closer alliance with parties such as USA to get tangible benefits like transferred technologies rather than just renting yourselves out as cheap mercenaries.

But we do that with the USA as well?? but that's besides the point.
Closer alliance with the USA has did not guarantee us ToT at an time.. even during those days when Jacky Kennedy was given a cheering welcome here and our guys got ticker tape parades there.

And as a general reminder.. the origins of the JF-17 lie in close alliance with the USA.
It was Grumman Aerospace that first proposed using a cranked double delta on the F-7 as part of the Sabre-II program, and I apologize if I am offending my Chinese friends here.. but the F-7E design.. the PG.. owes its existence to the Americans.
Mr Ma may have brought out those old "tablecloth" sketches and put them to actual use.. But it was US engineers that first proposed the idea of the improved F-7. Although that proposal never worked out for the sabre-II.. it led to Chinese and Pakistani ingenuity taking that seed of an idea and turning it into the fine product the JF-17 is.

Depends on what engines you compare it, PW 100 are the old F16 engines, but RD93 is more comparable to the RD33-3 series engines, even a bit more modern. That means you must compare it with later versions of the F16 engine too.
The main difference is, that the F16 is a medium class fighter with engines that also powers heavy class fighters, while the JF 17 is a light class fighter, with smaller engines, that's why it shouldn't be surprising that the F16 is more costly to operate.
Do you have any data about the cost difference of JF 17 and F7?



Yes, RD33 for twin engine fighters, SMR-95 for single engine and RD93 is a varient of it:



Klimov :: Production :: Aircraft Program :: RD-33 family

Klimov :: Production :: Aircraft Program :: SMR-95

They all still use the basic core.. the PW-100 is a modular engine.. one of the first of its kind.
Compared to many of its contemporaries that have evolved into something different, the PW-100 is still as potent today as it was in the 70's.
It may be a powerful engine for its class but the RD-33 does not even come close to the refinement of the PW-100.
GE Engines used on the big-mouth F-16's have more oomph.. but those that maintain both usually prefer the PW-100.(not anymore with the F-100-229.. ).
The PAF F-16AMs fly with the F-100-220E.. and the Block-52's have the 229)

 

[VCheng]

.............
And as a general reminder.. the origins of the JF-17 lie in close alliance with the USA.
It was Grumman Aerospace that first proposed using a cranked double delta on the F-7 as part of the Sabre-II program, and I apologize if I am offending my Chinese friends here.. but the F-7E design.. the PG.. owes its existence to the Americans.
Mr Ma may have brought out those old "tablecloth" sketches and put them to actual use.. But it was US engineers that first proposed the idea of the improved F-7. Although that proposal never worked out for the sabre-II.. it led to Chinese and Pakistani ingenuity taking that seed of an idea and turning it into the fine product the JF-17 is...................

When I said that, people bit my head off. Thank you for reaffirming that.

At least you are a Moderator so members here will allow you to live.

 

[SQ8]

When I said that, people bit my head off. Thank you for reaffirming that.

At least you are a Moderator so members here will allow you to live.

Apparently being tolerated demands holding the reins.

The fact that the United States is responsible for a LOT of wonderful and good things that have happened in this country should no be taken in relation to the greater mistakes made by them.
Give the perceived devil credit where it is due.. The QC and Testing of JF-17's at the production line uses a lot of American equipment to verify electronic components and whether all systems work in order or not.

 

[VCheng]

Apparently being tolerated demands holding the reins.

The fact that the United States is responsible for a LOT of wonderful and good things that have happened in this country should no be taken in relation to the greater mistakes made by them.
Give the perceived devil credit where it is due.. The QC and Testing of JF-17's at the production line uses a lot of American equipment to verify electronic components and whether all systems work in order or not.

All the more reason to continue to build upon those areas to benefit Pakistan, just like Turkey has done, no?

 

[SQ8]

All the more reason to continue to build upon those areas to benefit Pakistan, just like Turkey has done, no?

That is the ideal situation..
but Turkey never started with a master-slave relation in the first place.. whereas Pakistan(Ayub Khan) was ready to hit third base from the word go .. the "respect" never materialized for Pakistan in the eyes of the US state. In any case.. this is a long debate not fit for this topic.
What is fit is understanding and accepting the contribution of many nations(nationalities) that went into the JF-17.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Self delete!

 

[VCheng]

That is the ideal situation..
but Turkey never started with a master-slave relation in the first place.. whereas Pakistan(Ayub Khan) was ready to hit third base from the word go .. the "respect" never materialized for Pakistan in the eyes of the US state. In any case.. this is a long debate not fit for this topic.
What is fit is understanding and accepting the contribution of many nations(nationalities) that went into the JF-17.

Agreed 100%.

The JF-17 program is important indeed.

 

[sancho]

They all still use the basic core.. the PW-100 is a modular engine.. one of the first of its kind.
Compared to many of its contemporaries that have evolved into something different, the PW-100 is still as potent today as it was in the 70's.
It may be a powerful engine for its class but the RD-33 does not even come close to the refinement of the PW-100.
GE Engines used on the big-mouth F-16's have more oomph.. but those that maintain both usually prefer the PW-100.(not anymore with the F-100-229.. ).
The PAF F-16AMs fly with the F-100-220E.. and the Block-52's have the 229)

You get me wrong! The point was, that you compared older gen of F16 engines, with a more modern version of Russian engines in the JF 17 and that's why the RD93 was so close. If you compare the engines of the F16 block 52 and RD 93 instead, that gap should be wider again, since the Russian engines remain to be clearly more costly to operate than western counterparts of the same age.
Btw, Kaveri was developed without Russian or French support, that's why it is where it is now. The co-development with the French is still not cleared and is aimed on later batches or even AMCA. Just because you mentioned it, not to spoil the thread.

 

[Donatello]

All the more reason to continue to build upon those areas to benefit Pakistan, just like Turkey has done, no?

Turkey is a European Nation and member of NATO. Two luxuries Pakistan doesn't have. Plus they are one of the fastest growing economies and have a very developed infrastructure/science base. They had the Motorways, decades before we could even imagine such a thing.
What Pakistan did have was to use WOT for it's benefit as much as for anyone else's.....but we had this 'Commando' guy in Khaki who sold the country for a mere squadron of F-16s........at a cost of 40,000 lives.

Past is past indeed, but we haven't learned anything.

 

[VCheng]

Turkey is a European Nation and member of NATO. Two luxuries Pakistan doesn't have. Plus they are one of the fastest growing economies and have a very developed infrastructure/science base. They had the Motorways, decades before we could even imagine such a thing.
What Pakistan did have was to use WOT for it's benefit as much as for anyone else's.....but we had this 'Commando' guy in Khaki who sold the country for a mere squadron of F-16s........at a cost of 40,000 lives.

Past is past indeed, but we haven't learned anything.

I would love to respond, but that discussion doesn't belong in this topic.

The JF-17 can be developed further I am sure, to stay on topic.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Well I was recently going through a lot of older threads and the concerns over what is indigenous in the JF-17 (meaning of Pakistani origin) and its fairly hard to compile info scattered around the internet (I personally give Mr Antibody a thanks as cuz of him we have so much less effort to put in now a days)
So like I said I was going through older stuff and I found older discussions so here is the result , the total indigenous things that I found in the JFT


Cost:-

50-50 development cost shared between China and Pakistan.

Design:-

Pakistan reportedly had a huge input in the design which is similar to that of the F-16 (especially wings)

Weapons:-

-H-2 Air to Ground Munition(60 km)
-H-4 Air to Ground Munition(120 km)
-Ra'ad Stand-off cruise mssile (350 km)
-HAFR-2 Anti-Runway bomb

Software:-

Entire software developed in Pakistan using C++ language.

Avionics:-

-heads up display (HUD)
-Global Alttitude Heading reference System (GAHRS)
-Data Transfer Unit (DTU)
-RF Reversing Unit (RRU)
-Two 32 bit powerful weapon and mission management computers
-Auxiliary power unit (APU)
-health and usage monitoring systems (HUMS)

Supportive role of PAC :-

Radar:-

-KLJ-07

Nanjing have also reportedly drawn on the Galileo Avionica/Finmeccanica Grifo and the Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) Elta-2032 in developing their own radar designs.
KLJ-7/10 Fire Control Radar (FCR) (China) - Jane's Avionics

EW suite:-

Reported help with SE-2 MAWS

Please add more..if you can... to overcome the general perception that our total work in the JF-17 is that of a paint job.

 

[SQ8]

Btw, Kaveri was developed without Russian or French support, that's why it is where it is now. The co-development with the French is still not cleared and is aimed on later batches or even AMCA. Just because you mentioned it, not to spoil the thread.

Hence the IAF is not keen on it for the LCA currently and ipso facto why the PAF is not keen on the WS-13.

 

[fjavaid]

let us not praise RD-93 that much because we dont know what was the actual reason of JF-17 Crash and also P.Shamim raised negative point that PAF is not satisfied by RD-93 performance. (from Pakdef)

Nopss ...buddy you are higly mistaken ....or missed the info regarding the engine on previous pages !!!!
RD-93 may be moe expensive to maintain but PAF has no issue with its performance ....its Thrust response has been praised by many PAF pilots.....
The only Thing that Buggs PAF is its Russian Origion ..... thats wot P.shamim said .........

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

Nopss ...buddy you are higly mistaken ....or missed the info regarding the engine on previous pages !!!!
RD-93 may be moe expensive to maintain but PAF has no issue with its performance ....its Thrust response has been praised by many PAF pilots.....
The only Thing that Buggs PAF is its Russian Origion ..... thats wot P.shamim said .........

Yar i could not find that statement of P.Shamim, Sorry Oscar, i spent a lot of time yesterday.

 

[farhan_9909]

Yes indeed Pshamim said..PAF is nt happy only with the engine performance.

he said this in pakdef